Putting a diesel in my 69 GMC? What engine to use?

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Doesn't seem to be shaking to bad. Can't be 100% positive but looks very fun to me.

He never let it idle....That's when they shake.

[1972RedNeck]

Originally Posted by clinebarger

It's not a balance issue.....All 4 cylinder engines without harmonic/balance shafts shake. A 17:1 4-cylinder will shake ALOT, Only firing 2 cylinders per crank revolution makes this an Inherent issue.
All engine manufacturers balance rotating assembly's.

How is 6 greater than 8? All B series Cummins owners think their engine's are supreme. In my opinion if Cummins made a V8 version of the B series....It would be "all the rave"!

You can't get as many main bearings in a V8.

As far as 4 cylinders, we had a little old D4 Cat that was smooth as glass. So is our TD14.

[ryanroo]

For expense, you can sort of compare my two builds. the cummins truck is way into the 5 digit zone. and i havent even gotten the bodywork finished, nor is it running. it is a little atypical however as i have done a bunch of extra stuff to it. but, just the cost of the engine and transmission is more than i have invested in my "parts truck" build. that was a one ton swap, 350, transmission and tcase build, and some extra new parts. factor in all the fab work that i dont charge myself for and it would be pretty serious dough just to get an engine in and functional without all the extra stuff.

now as to the source of the engine, cheapest will be a 6.2/5 gm diesel. they use standard GM transmission and and you can easily use a 5 speed tranny. not real good for power adding. they have a tendancy not to live if you toss much more power at them than stock. stock they do alright, but mighty gutless in comparison.

you can find decent deals on 12v 6bts, but i doubt you can spend less than 2k on an engine and transmission if they are ready to run. they are a good proven engine that supports power making mods easily. the 24vs are decent engines if they have an uncracked 53 block with or the non 53 blocks. the IP is difficult to make awesome power with, and is prone to failure if not set up correctly. anything in the common rail department will cost way more than the earlier engines. anything that isnt a 12v will have some form of electronic control. more wiring/work/points of difficulty. they fit in the engine compartment good enough and you can wedge the dodge I/C in there pretty easily.

the 4bts are not super powerful stock, and if you are going to spend money making power, why not do it to the 6? they shake like a dog sh*tting razor blades at idle, and i have never seen one that didnt. its the curse of the i4.

the duramax has always been common rail and electronic controlled. this will pose more issues in the finalization of the install. it will cost more to buy an engine and they are HARD to find with a manual trans. so most of them will be hooked to an allison and that will add significant cost. i know deals are out there but ive never found an engine alone for less than the 2800-3000 range that was a running pull out and not damaged. they can make awesome power(just look at dimitri mallard) but it gets real pricey real quick. the bottom ends dont do that great over 550-600 horse and new rods are the price of a decent 12v. ive never done a swap with a dmax, although i would like to try, so i cant speak to the ease or difficulry of installation. i doubt it will be that much worse than any custom install.

now as to who or what is better, that is all opinion. i like the cummins because of what they offer. i like the duramax for what it offfers. i wouldnt shy away from a 6.2 or 6.5 if i had it and didnt have my heart set on super hot rod power.

[ryanroo]

also, as far as i know, gm owned basically a majority of isuzu shares until they repurchased a lot of thier shares. in the deal GM owns the duramax and any isuzu diesel engine designs. so, technically GM owns/build the duramax.

[marvgarr68]

restorationboy has not replyed back to any post

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by marvgarr68

restorationboy has not replyed back to any post

He probably got sticker shock of mentioned diesel swap and decided to drop this thread. I don't blame him as I'm a big diesel fan and I don't dare mention it.

[marvgarr68]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

He probably got sticker shock of mentioned diesel swap and decided to drop this thread. I don't blame him as I'm a big diesel fan and I don't dare mention it.

i beleve you are right so much hate it does not matter what you got as long as you build it my moto always is though easier is cheaper

[lowrollin70gmc]

We're not trying to scare him, heck I want there to be more old trucks with oil shakers under the hood. But it is a large undertaking financially and time wise. If I added up my costs for just my engine and transmission you're looking at $4000

$2000 donor truck
$800 clutch
$200 hydro clutch stuff
$200 intercooler
$300 radiator
$100 steel tube and plate
$200 misc gaskets and fasteners
$150 drive shaft
$50 misc welding supplies, necessary tools
___________
$4000

And a month of leave doing the majority of the swap with a few weeks of odds and ends thereafter.


That's with a super cheap donor truck that I drove for a year and actually pulled my burb from SoCal to SoDak before I yanked the 6BTA out of it.

It also didn't include transmission options, I went with a 6 speed, but keeping the 5 speed would have cost some coin as well.

$2000 NV5600 or $1000 to rebuild Getrag 360 5 spd
$200 NP205 rebuild

And I haven't mentioned the coin spent on axles or improvements to the engine.

Now for comparison to drop a small block in.

$500 used engine
$500 used transmission
$100 bolts, gaskets, misc
________
$1100 and most of it recoverable if you pull it out later to toss in a diesel.

A decent weekend or two.

Go for it, but have a plan and parts on hand before starting; there are a lot of trucks that get torn apart to never be finished due to poor planning and short funds.

[BigRed76]

Originally Posted by lowrollin70gmc

We're not trying to scare him, heck I want there to be more old trucks with oil shakers under the hood. But it is a large undertaking financially and time wise. If I added up my costs for just my engine and transmission you're looking at $4000

$2000 donor truck
$800 clutch
$200 hydro clutch stuff
$200 intercooler
$300 radiator
$100 steel tube and plate
$200 misc gaskets and fasteners
$150 drive shaft
$50 misc welding supplies, necessary tools
___________
$4000

And a month of leave doing the majority of the swap with a few weeks of odds and ends thereafter.


That's with a super cheap donor truck that I drove for a year and actually pulled my burb from SoCal to SoDak before I yanked the 6BTA out of it.

It also didn't include transmission options, I went with a 6 speed, but keeping the 5 speed would have cost some coin as well.

$2000 NV5600 or $1000 to rebuild Getrag 360 5 spd
$200 NP205 rebuild

And I haven't mentioned the coin spent on axles or improvements to the engine.

Now for comparison to drop a small block in.

$500 used engine
$500 used transmission
$100 bolts, gaskets, misc
________
$1100 and most of it recoverable if you pull it out later to toss in a diesel.

A decent weekend or two.

Go for it, but have a plan and parts on hand before starting; there are a lot of trucks that get torn apart to never be finished due to poor planning and short funds.

Never been a big fan of diesels, although I've been learning and working on them a lot more lately; but from the rough estimate you came up with doesn't seem too bad compared to most LSx swaps I've seen. I've been working on a 5.3/4L60E swap for my '71 c10 and my total will be near 6K when it's finished, and that's with a stock engine.

[Bigdav160]

He got a good deal on a donor truck

My Grandfather passed recently and I was given the job of selling his truck. A 1998 2WD Dodge with a 12 valve and automatic. 115,000 on the odometer. Overall,the truck was in decent shape.

I was able to get $6500 for the truck. The kid that bought it was grinnin' ear to ear.

[lowrollin70gmc]

I got a screaming deal on a donor truck; it should have been in the $4000 range being a 91.5 3/4T 4x4. That was three years ago and prices have been going up on the early Cummins Dodges. Great deals are easier to find when you have time. I looked for 6 months and rode 125 miles on my motorcycle to buy mine with 219k on the broken odometer. The duct tape was to keep rain out at speed, every panel was smashed (but rust free?!), the transmission needed to double clutch into 3rd, and most of the lights did whatever they wanted to do. I got the only good parts left other than the frame. In it's defense, it did have matching near-bald tires when I bought it.



My $4000 didn't even touch the transmission or axles. If I tried to do my swap today and in a rush, I would have well over $8000 (extra $2k for donor and the $2k for transmission) in my swap, not including axles and power increases. I probably wouldn't do a diesel swap at that cost, but I love the power and fuel mileage that a gasser couldn't touch in my K20.

Random note: I do want to toss an LS in a different car of mine and hopefully I can do it on the cheap, but I'll keep driving it with a traditional small block until I have all the parts on hand to do it. Keep the swap down to a few weekends (okay, a lot of weekends).

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted by 1972RedNeck

You can't get as many main bearings in a V8.

As far as 4 cylinders, we had a little old D4 Cat that was smooth as glass. So is our TD14.

I6 crankshafts are longer, Of coarse it will need support. Your argument doesn't have much ground.....Example.....An I6 3406 Cat V.S. a V8 3408 Cat, Both will require an In-frame at the same Miles/Hours.

Put that Cat 4 cylinder in your truck & see what happens, Heavy machinery like Dozers don't idle very low either.

For the record I never put down The 6BT, I've owed 2 P-pump 6BT Dodges in the past, The stock LBZ Duramax I have now will walk any stock turbo 12 valve, Just a Smoke Show from the Cummins.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by lowrollin70gmc

with 219k on the broken odometer.

I had one of those that said 210k miles, Pretty sure it had well over 400k on it by the time I sold it, I know it never clocked much more since I got it and I used it... ALOT

[ryanroo]

Originally Posted by clinebarger

For the record I never put down The 6BT, I've owed 2 P-pump 6BT Dodges in the past, The stock LBZ Duramax I have now will walk any stock turbo 12 valve, Just a Smoke Show from the Cummins.

a stock lbz to a stock 12v. that is sort of apples to oranges anyhow. an engine with an oem rating of 360/650 vs an engine that had an oem rating at most of 215/440. so at best you have a 145 hp and 210 tq disparity. id say the lbz should walk on the 12v. the simple fact is that they are two totally different animals. comparing them is silly. bring the 12v up to 360 and i bet the comparison is much better.

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted by ryanroo

a stock lbz to a stock 12v. that is sort of apples to oranges anyhow. an engine with an oem rating of 360/650 vs an engine that had an oem rating at most of 215/440. so at best you have a 145 hp and 210 tq disparity. id say the lbz should walk on the 12v. the simple fact is that they are two totally different animals. comparing them is silly. bring the 12v up to 360 and i bet the comparison is much better.

I said stock Turbo, As in HX-35, But running whatever fuel plate, Intake & exhaust.

[mmiddle]

Dang! I bet we did scare the kid off! I didn't mean to start a Cummings/Duramax war with my post

But I will say my 2003 LB7/Allison is a dream. 185K and all I've done to the truck is rebuild the instrument panel and replace the injectors at 180K. I've owned the truck from the day it rolled off the transporter.

If I was to build a diesel conversion it would be a Duramax or dare I say it??? a 7.3 Powerjoke. Say what you will, but after 12 years of production, the Duramax has proven to be a stellar platform with incredible power potential.

The Cummings is a great motor and worthy of any and all accolades it has received, but for my money a 6 banger will never be for me.

Yes, I know someone could take a 4cyl. and cram twin hair dryers/propane/NoX on it and make a 700+hp oil burner, but that's not a streetable engine.

The OP was a farm kid wanting something to pull a stock trailer, not a sled-weight or run in the low 10's. I knew a guy back in the '80 that put a cummings-perkins 4cyl. in an early '70s F**D. He was an old farmer and it suited his purpose. The truck would not outrun its own shadow, but it pulled his 2 horse trailer just fine (for him).

The OP was a kid, and knowing kids he would not be happy with a truck like that. The GM 6.2/6.5, Cummings, Duramax or PS would serve him better. He was even wanting to "Roll Coal" further leading me to believe a 4 cyl was not for him.

[ryanroo]

Originally Posted by clinebarger

I said stock Turbo, As in HX-35, But running whatever fuel plate, Intake & exhaust.

so? still apples to oranges. the choke point on the 12v being the stock 12cm housing on the turbo will limit the performance. dump as much fuel and put the biggest intake horn you want on it. still going to have retarded drive pressure. duramax has a larger turbo(63? vs 56mm inducer) and its variable geometry. still not really a valid comparison. id still bet if you set up the 12v to run well at similar power numbers it would be a much closer "race".

i am not saying one is better than the other. i just think the comparison is moot given the >decade difference between the two. the industry standards for power skyrocketed during that decade and the technology changed dramatically as well. the 6bts are running with the same technology that they started with on unnaturally aspirated diesels. the lbz is a bit further ahead.