starter issues again

[70Custom10Nut]

does anyone out there have as much problem with getting a starter that won't grind the flywheel? Since I bought the truck 21 years ago I've had more starters than I can remember, and my son just put another new flywheel last week. Still there's a problem with the bendix grinding on the flywheel, but more when the truck is hot than the first thing in the morning. Any ideas out side the obvious of shimming?

[geezer#99]

You got a rear brace on it?
Like in here.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=492532

[70Custom10Nut]

good question. I used to have it on there, but didn't think to ask him that while I was attempting to troubleshoot it over the phone. Thanks

[68gmsee]

Originally Posted by 70Custom10Nut

does anyone out there have as much problem with getting a starter that won't grind the flywheel?..........Any ideas out side the obvious of shimming?

I've replaced lots of starters in my time but never had problems like you're having. I've only used shims on one occasion that I remember. Maybe I've been lucky.

You could try looking for an OEM starter/flywheel combo and have it rebuilt by a reputable shop rather than buying over the counter.

[68gmsee]

Just noticed you're location is Germany...

Since you're having so much trouble, maybe a rear brace would help, but, again, I've never used one on mine in the past. I do have one on a Corvette engine I have on a test stand but it was cause it came with it.

[Zeke's Garage]

Another thing I've 'heard' about on the internet, mostly with corvettes (not that there's a difference in engine/starter design), but a large percentage of 'new' starters have snouts (the part that the bendix rides in) that don't align properly into the older original bell housings. Some folks have had good luck finding an old OEM starter, and putting the original snout on the replacement starter.

But internet starter lore not withstanding... What does your old flywheel and bendix gear look like? Can you tell where the mis-alignement is taking place, and where the wear is happening?

When you put on your new starter/flywheel combo, take off any inspection covers and use a screwdriver to extend the bendix into the flywheel and check the mesh. The teeth should obviously mesh with no binding, and you should be able to put a straightened paperclip between the starter tooth and flywheel. Make sure the bendix isn't 'overshooting' or 'undershooting' the flywheel, meaning that the bendix gear is actually lining up and making good contact. This is where you make your adjustments with the shims. Sometimes shimming is intuitive to get good mesh, and other times you realize you need to grind material off the starter snout to make it fit properly.

Also any pictures of your failed components might help us troubleshoot further.

[70Custom10Nut]

The wear is about 1/4 to 1/3 on the flywheel where the engine comes to rest when shut off. I noticed this on other flywheels I've replaced. The brace? does it work? depends who you talk to. If I remember right I had it on there before. the bendix is now new so it wouldn't be worn.
The old starter that was on it was a factory nose cone, but it cracked when my son was replacing it.
Has any one had luck with the starters from Summitt? Or any suggestions on a n actual factory replacement place? Just wondering because I'm about at wits end on this.

[70Custom10Nut]

Forgot to say. Yes, I'm in Germany but my truck is in Columbia SC with my son.

[70Custom10Nut]

Update. The son drove it to work, and on the way, stalled at an intersection. I his haste to start again, it ground some of the teeth away. He has a tendency to exagerrate things so I'm wondering if it really did mess things up. Still preplexed as to why this keeps happening.

[Jayschevy]

Did you ever try a hi torque mini starter? I had this issue until I installed a mini starter.

[70Custom10Nut]

Haven't tried that yet but maybe soon. Are you meaning the type that Summitt or Jeg's carries?

[Jayschevy]

Originally Posted by 70Custom10Nut

Haven't tried that yet but maybe soon. Are you meaning the type that Summitt or Jeg's carries?

Yes, I got mine from Summit Racing. Can't remember the part number but if you call them and tell them what engine you have they'll get you the right one.

[70Custom10Nut]

thanks

[bbcmudtruck]

Just an idea, but it could be your main bearings wearing out. I had the same issues your having and tried different flywheels, different starters, shimming every which way etc. When I finally figured out what was wrong, it was the main bearings in the motor.

[N444TX]

My first post.

I am an auto shop owner and have worked on cars for 35 years. This is a common, but little known, problem with older Chevy blocks and replacement starters. The problem is too much gear clearance requiring an older starter nose, milling the existing nose for tighter clearance or installing an aftermarket race type starter ( many have the tighter clearance designed in).

When I was 16 my 65 Chevy truck with a 427 engine installed would eat a starter about every month. No parts house would give me a warranty. I always felt it needed to be deshimmed. Years later, when working on cars for a living, we used a starter rebuild shop that had milled housings for exactly the same problem I had in the past. (no longer available).

When having to replace any original Chevy starter, pre 1980, I rebush the original nose piece and install it on the rebuilt starter.

I have had a local machinist mill the mounting area of the starter when customers come in with multiple starter replacement complaints. .060 has been about perfect, with no reshimming required.

I have installed a few aftermarket Jegs type hotrod starters and have found them to have very good gear mesh. Many are very affordable.

Hope this helps.

George
1972 2wd Blazer, pulled Roller cam TBI motor for 6.0 liter.

[70Custom10Nut]

Update. He finally did what I told him to do in the first place. He replaced the flywheel (again) and the starter at the same time. Ta Da! He said it working fine again. Thanks for all the insight though. I'm committing this all to memory for the next time.

[heyjoe]

N444TX, welcome. Thanks for the good info!

[70Custom10Nut]

and it continues... The son called me last night to say it's doing it again. Mostly when it's hot. Could the solenoid being too close to the header be a cause? Possibly gets heated too much and then doesn't fully engage the bendix? Trying to problem solve over the phone is killin me. If the heat issue is the problem I'm ready to go back to stock manifolds. Are all the SB manifolds the same for 67-72?

[jjzepplin]

I am also having issues when it's hot. But it's a Mini starter with a header heat sheild. I am going to disconnect the main positive cable and remove the plugs and hook up a starter switch. Put on some safety glasses and get under there and see whats going on in real time- adjust as necessary. Also bought a solenoid for the hot start issue. Going out of town soon but let you know how it goes when I get back.

[MARKDTN]

I would try a new mini-starter. Use '95 Suburban as an application. Just be sure you have the right size flexplate for it. Is he using correct starter bolts? If you just use regular 3/8 bolts it won't work-you need the special knurled bolts.

[70Custom10Nut]

I'll have to ask him on the bolts. Thanks for the other info too
.

[bbcmudtruck]

Heat soak could cause issues. A starter blanket is pretty cheap and would help keep the heat off of it. Definitely need starter bolts! I've done the 3/8" bolts and it ended in broken starter teeth and damn near took the ear off the block.

[N444TX]

Like I said before another starter every month or so. Adding shims, new flywheels/flexplates, rear starter braces, solenoid shields, starter blankets. I finally fixed it! A month goes by and the same thing again.

A good start would be to check the gear to gear clearance. Remove the solenoid, install the starter, engage the bendix gear into the flywheel and look at the contact pattern. The rule I used to use was a small paper clip should drag thru the gear contact area on one side with zero backlash on the other. There are specs from many hotrod starter manufacturers that may give other ways to gauge the contact area, but the paper clip always worked for me before these other starters existed. Too much clearance and deshim, too tight add shim.

If contact pattern and flywheel wear/grinding are not the problem, but there is a hard cranking (especially hot) problem. I would check for available voltage to the starter when cranking. First check the battery voltage across the battery terminals then the voltage at the starter (positive on the solenoid/negative on the starter case) when cranking. I would expect about a .5 to 1.0 volt difference. Once had a Corvette with welding cable leads that had a 6 volt drop thru the cables themselves. Any poor connection or high resistance will show up as lower voltage (voltage drop) at the starter.

If the starter problem persists check gear contact and get some voltage readings. Also make sure the problem also occures with the ignition disabled. Overly avanced initial timing will make it crank hard. Let us or me know.

George
1972 2wd blazer

[jjzepplin]

I pulled off the mini starter and it seems the spline is worn quite a bit. I ordered a new one but couldn't wait so I went down to Advance Auto and bought a stock starter and checked the clearance with the paper clip,Which involved removing the solenoid ,installing the starter motor , then reinstalling the solenoid. Which was surprisingly easy with the headers still on.
Amazing how quiet it is now and seemed to be working great.
Got it to the temp set on the electric fans (about 190) and all was fine but one time it did do a hard start. After that it seemed ok again.
Gonna recheck the timing and redo the dist advance curve to see if that helps but it is way better than before.
No grinding noises at all even with the hard start.
Forgot , Also installed remote solenoid and has new battery.
Has to be timing now.
Also need to check voltage drop at starter. But why would it be different when hot? Seems to have plenty of power when it's cold.
Need to get one of those starter braces too.