First time setting up Timing

[Frijolito1988]

Hey guys, I have a few questions on how to do this properly.


So step 1 i found TDC on #1 piston and distributor rotor is pointing at the number 1 piston , so far so good right ?



Now i have a timing pointer & my balancer has a mark on it .

Which one is showing me 0* ? The timing pointer or the mark on the balancer ?


Another question. Once i establish and mark where 0* is. Do i start the truck at 0* and then advance the timing or do i advance the timing to either 8*-10* before i start the truck ?

I will be posting pictures shortly. Thanks guys.

[geezer#99]

How did you find tdc #1?
The timing pointer shows zero plus each mark on it is 2 degrees. You line up the mark on the balancer with the timing mark on the pointer.
You need it running to set the timing.

[Frijolito1988]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

How did you find tdc #1?
The timing pointer shows zero plus each mark on it is 2 degrees. You line up the mark on the balancer with the timing mark on the pointer.
You need it running to set the timing.

I took off the sparkplug for #1 cylinder. and jammed a rag in there. Clicked over the crank until it popped the rag out .


How to i lineup the mark on the balancer to the mark on the pointer ? If i do it with a breaker bar , wouldn't that just throw out my TDC ?

[Frijolito1988]

[geezer#99]

Only one way to verify tdc on #1 is with a piston stop. Like here.
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...0189/overview/

A rag, a screwdriver or a pencil isn't accurate.
If you're going to do it, do it right!

Once you know your marks are right then the mark on the balancer will be at zero on your timing tab. You can crank your motor over a hundred times and every time the marks line up you know you're at #1 tdc.

[old Chevy guy]

If your sure it a compression stroke just turn the balancer to zero and your good. If you have any doubt about the compression stroke take off the valve cover and see if the valves are closed. Unless your questioning the marks on the balancer or the pointer that's all you need, I've done a hundred if I've done one.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by Frijolito1988

I took off the sparkplug for #1 cylinder. and jammed a rag in there. Clicked over the crank until it popped the rag out .

I watched an episode of Horsepower TV a year or so ago and the guy did it by sticking his finger in the hole. I don't mean over, I mean in.

Maybe he knew it used long reach plugs, I dunno, but not something I'd every try.

I disagree that you need a piston stop. You sure do for degreeing a cam or anything that needs a super-accurate TDC, but all he's looking for here is to make sure he's [not] 180 out and then he can rely on the timing tab.

Now if you didn't have a timing tab or needed to adjust one, then you'd need a piston stop.

Can you make an argument that a piston stop the right tool? Sure. But sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good.

[DBD]

Timing issues can present as a lot of different symptoms, and it's really easy to set it right once and be sure that the rest of the troubleshooting is easy. even just a few degrees can make a significant difference, and the curve for an SBC is very well-documented.

Spending $10 and 20 minutes verifying TDC and re-scribing or adjusting the timing marks if needed can save one hell of a lot of time later on. Anyone that works on cars should have a piston stop in their toolbox.

[leftybass209]

What is the age of that balancer? I have seen them slip on the rubber if it's aged. It's not common, but pretty apparent when you absolutely confirm tdc and the balancer line is off.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Frijolito1988

Hey guys, I have a few questions on how to do this properly.


So step 1 i found TDC on #1 piston and distributor rotor is pointing at the number 1 piston , so far so good right ?



Now i have a timing pointer & my balancer has a mark on it .

Which one is showing me 0* ? The timing pointer or the mark on the balancer ?


Another question. Once i establish and mark where 0* is. Do i start the truck at 0* and then advance the timing or do i advance the timing to either 8*-10* before i start the truck ?

I will be posting pictures shortly. Thanks guys.

This time, I agree with DBD, you should get a piston stop and determine TDC. 18.00$ shipped and all the accuracy you need.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Proform-Pist..._Tools&vxp=mtr

That engine in the picture has an adjustable timing pin, and no telling if it's been properly adjusted.

That dampener looks old, and it only has that one mark and no telling if it's right for this engine, or old enough to have slipped. So, either get a new dampener OR this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-141-728

[davepl]

Originally Posted by DBD

Spending $10 and 20 minutes verifying TDC and re-scribing or adjusting the timing marks if needed can save one hell of a lot of time later on. Anyone that works on cars should have a piston stop in their toolbox.

I'm really contrarion today. I can see where a piston stop would help you identify a slipped balancer ring or similar, but if you find it to be out I think re-scribing the lines would be false economy. If the outer ring has slipped then the balancer (technically, damper) should be replaced.

Second, while I do own a piston stop, I've never used it for installing a balancer. It helps you find TDC, but which? Compression or Exhaust? That's sort of the rub here isn't it?

[geezer#99]

[QUOTE

Spending $10 and 20 minutes verifying TDC and re-scribing or adjusting the timing marks if needed can save one hell of a lot of time later on. Anyone that works on cars should have a piston stop in their toolbox.[/QUOTE]

And in his case with that aftermarket pointer he really needs to establish the timing marks on his balancer.
Easy to make your own piston stop out of an old sparkplug. Knock the insulator off, knock the electrode out and drill and tap the threads for a bolt inside the plug and screw in some ready rod with a lock nut.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

And in his case with that aftermarket pointer he really needs to establish the timing marks on his balancer.
Easy to make your own piston stop out of an old sparkplug. Knock the insulator off, knock the electrode out and drill and tap the threads for a bolt inside the plug and screw in some ready rod with a lock nut.

My bad entirely. I missed the part where the pointer isn't know to be accurate, since I sort of jumped into the middle of the post. So what I said is just about getting your distributor withing 179 degrees of where it should be. To set the timing pointer you absolutely need the TDC tool.

He'll also need a degree wheel, right? Unless he just tries to split the difference of it stopping one way vs. the other by eye, which probably isn't good. Or is there a non-degree-wheel way?

One random comment: pistons are usually aluminum, so I prefer my TDC tool made from that or a softer metal. Spark plugs and threaded rod are (usually) steel, so you could ding a piston and create a hot spot that makes it more prone to detonation.... but only if you get too physical with hitting the stop.

[DBD]

Originally Posted by davepl

I'm really contrarion today.

Welcome to the internet ;-)

Originally Posted by davepl

I can see where a piston stop would help you identify a slipped balancer ring or similar, but if you find it to be out I think re-scribing the lines would be false economy. If the outer ring has slipped then the balancer (technically, damper) should be replaced.

slipped balancers aren't unusual and I've seen some...but it's really not unusual that for some other reason the marks are wrong. I've seen pointers from different years/models installed, and balancers that were just marked wrong. I just saw last weekend a brand new Pioneer 8" balancer that was just plain wrong. if it's slipped it needs to go, but if it hasn't, a rescribe or a moveable pointer is fine.

Originally Posted by davepl

Second, while I do own a piston stop, I've never used it for installing a balancer. It helps you find TDC, but which? Compression or Exhaust? That's sort of the rub here isn't it?

it's not used for installing a balancer; the balancer is keyed to the crank so it only goes on one way it's used to verify TDC.

there's only one TDC - the crank doesn't know what stroke is what. the cam turns at 1/2 the crank speed, which determines which stroke it's on. it's the same TDC for both strokes

The OP should verify TDC, then turn the engine to about 8-10 degrees BTDC on the compression stroke (found with a finger over the spark plug hole) then position the distributor rotor to point at #1. That'll get it in the ballpark. Needs some degree tape for the balancer - cheap and quick to install.

Geezer's right with the aftermarket pointer...it's adjustable, so a piston stop is pretty much mandatory to be sure it's lined up.

Originally Posted by davepl

Unless he just tries to split the difference of it stopping one way vs. the other by eye, which probably isn't good. Or is there a non-degree-wheel way?

Nope, that's the way to do it. Measure between the two points with a flexible rule...it's very accurate.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by davepl

I'm really contrarion today. I can see where a piston stop would help you identify a slipped balancer ring or similar, but if you find it to be out I think re-scribing the lines would be false economy. If the outer ring has slipped then the balancer (technically, damper) should be replaced.

Second, while I do own a piston stop, I've never used it for installing a balancer. It helps you find TDC, but which? Compression or Exhaust? That's sort of the rub here isn't it?

Agreed. There are only very rare instances where a new dampener on a SBC will not line up with the pointer, but some older small blocks had timing pointers spot welded in the middle of the timing cover and it's a little harder to find a dampener that will fit these, this would be one of the rare instances if you put an easy to find common dampener on it that you would need to re-mark it. Like maybe a fluid dampener on one of those old covers.

Piston stops are primarily for installing/adjusting degrees on high performance cams with the heads in place using a degree wheel.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by DBD

The OP should verify TDC, then turn the engine to about 8-10 degrees BTDC on the compression stroke (found with a finger over the spark plug hole) then position the distributor rotor to point at #1. That'll get it in the ballpark. Needs some degree tape for the balancer - cheap and quick to install.

I think we've beat this to death, and I hope you don't disagree with these:

1) the TDC tool is for setting the timing indicator to be accurate
2) once the timing tab and marks are known accurate, you can just watch for the compression stroke and set it to TDC on the timing mark

[davepl]

Originally Posted by DBD

Nope, that's the way to do it. Measure between the two points with a flexible rule...it's very accurate.

I'd probably use a degree wheel because I'm used to it, but that sounds like a perfectly valid way to do it.

[DBD]

Originally Posted by davepl

2) once the timing tab and marks are known accurate, you can just watch for the compression stroke and set it to TDC on the timing mark

It ain't gonna start @TDC. needs 8-12 degrees of advance.

I can't speak for other folks experience, but I find timing marks that are wrong all the time without the balancer being slipped. Not going back-and-forth, but I see it regularly.

Originally Posted by davepl

I'd probably use a degree wheel because I'm used to it, but that sounds like a perfectly valid way to do it.

it has to be indexed to the crank...so you'd have to yank all the pulleys. try the easy way sometime and then do it again with a degree wheel...if you find a big difference, post the pics

[davepl]

Doy. Yeah, I meant to find TDC, not to set his timing to 0. But I guess that could have confused a newbie (not you, but someone who hasn't done it before).

[geezer#99]

Can't harm the piston if you pull all the plugs and move the crank by hand.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by DBD

Needs some degree tape for the balancer - cheap and quick to install.

Well, I like that idea! I'd put it on with scotch tape first, find TDC, then with the crank on TDC and do the final sticky!

[geezer#99]

Another tip for any rookies out there. The real rookies. Not you three!! LOL!!
Since you might be working by yourself most of the time and don't have enough hands to bump the motor over to find tdc, just use another old sparkplug but only drill a small hole down the centre to make a whistle. You'll hear it quite well when the piston comes up.

Do you guys think the op will ever chime in?