Welding Advice

[LDO]

I feel I'm a pretty able person. I can do most things on my truck on my own but the one thing that intimidates the hell outta me is welding. Not sure why but that's the truth of it.

Wife got me a craftsman wire feed welder a few years back and it was a nightmare. Not sure if it was my lack of experience or quality of tool or both but it never seemed to work properly.

Now I'm back to thinking I want and need to give this another try. I only have access to 110v so I'm looking for advice on what equipment to purchase.

I have a butchered up dash on my 66 that stares me in the face every day reminding me that I can't weld. Time to do something about this.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
LDO

[truckster]

I bought a Hobart 140 (it's US made by Miller) and I love it. It comes with a regulator and you'll need to buy or rent a gas bottle locally. Mine came with a roller (metal, not plastic) for .030 and .035, but I got one for .023 and that's what I primarily use.

There are plenty of good YouTube videos you can watch to learn the basics. Get some scrap metal and practice, practice, practice. Make sure the metal is clean, or it's going to be a painful learning process.

Thicker metal is easier to learn on than sheet metal, so I'd start off with something like 1/8 inch plate. Once you feel comfortable welding on that, start on some scrap pieces of sheet metal. It won't take you long to get to where you're ready to get to work on your project.

[BR3W CITY]

For Mig welding, there is a pretty large gap in the entry level equipment cost. There isn't a single GOOD welder that is 110v ready, and under $500. There will be people who say they bought some unknown brand and it worked great, but theres more to consider than that.

You want a welder that has serviceable parts that are readily available. That puts you down to Lincoln, Hobart and Miller. If you want 110v, that narrows the models from each company (give or take the year-to-year variations).

Miller and Hobart each made 2-3 welders that are MVP, which means 220 and 110v compliant. I know Lincoln makes at least one. There aren't many 110-only welders...most are either 220 only, or 220/110 MVP.

The Hobart offerings are Miller units, with certain optional parts being a little cheaper. Guide wheels are poly instead of brass, the trigger/gun quality is a little lower etc....but the quality of the welder is comparable, and many of the wear parts can be upgraded or interchanged. Hobart/Miller has the 211MVP which is also the 210 MVP from the other company; both are selectable voltage welders with a range of wire feeds, a gas regulator, high quality internal parts, a good trigger, a good warranty, and the ability to use a spool gun. The main differences are the auto-selecting feed rate on the Miller, and a few small internal parts.

For my budget, the 210MVP was hard to beat for around $800. It works plenty well at 110, and great at 220. I've done everything from sheetmetal to frame work on it, and its been fabulous.

Keep in mind, there are just some things that don't jive well on 110v. I find 220 to weld easier, regardless of the material thickness.

[truckster]

Amazon has the Hobart 140 at $499:

Hobart 500559 Handler Wire Welder - Mig Welding...
The 140 is a 110v unit. It has metal, not plastic rollers, and the quality is great. You'll get an adjustable regulator with it, but you'll need to get a gas bottle locally.

I've welded up 1/4 plate with mine with no problem. It really is a great machine for the price.

Now, one thing: It has stepped rather than infinitely adjustable voltage, but I haven't found that to be a problem. Set the voltage for the thickness you're welding, and fine tune with the feed speed.

[_Ogre]

any name brand 120v welder will weld anything on any old truck in one pass
i bought a 120v lincoln weldpack 100 at home depot they also carry consumables there
it is usually the weldor (person) not the welder (machine) that determines that the 120v machines can't weld
welding takes practice and experience, don't expect perfect beads 1 hour out of the box

i may be the odd duck in that i use a 120v lincoln fluxcore welder to build my 58 truk
including welding in a mustII cross member and lots of body panel repair

[racecougar]

^^^Amen!

[Ironangel]

Unless your planning to weld 1/4" and above thicknesses, the 110 volt machines will work nicely, especially on body panels and sheet metal. There are a few key things to know and do with MIG welding. First of all, Practice! I wouldn't suggest the inexperienced hand to attempt "flux core" because it requires skill and understanding. Use a gas coverage (CO2/Argon) (NOS Gas) with .25 wire, gas set at about 15-20psi in an enclosed no fans environment. The metal needs to be CLEAN and the fit needs to be as close as possible. "Lap Joints" where you can get away with it. Use a series of "tacks" to spread the heat out and to keep distortion to a minimum...Did I mention "PRACTICE?"...Take your hood to a local body shop or have a friend who knows how to weld come over and show you so you can see and hear what a correct running machine looks and sounds like. Set your voltage and leave it alone, all the rest of the adjustment is made with "wire speed"...Keep your wire stick-out at about 3/8" to 1/4"...If your readily burning through, your voltage is too high, if the bead is balling up your wire speed is too fast...Practice on junk metal instead of your dash.

[Spartan]

For a good 110v machine a miller 135 with gas. .023 wire.
Auto darkening hood of your choice. I like the miller classic because it's around 90.00 buck and instead of fancy watch batteries it takes AA. Get a hat with that and ear plugs. Nothing more bothersome than a hot bb going in your ear or melting some hair. Good clean safety glasses. I like flat lenses with side shields because curved plastic tends to distort your view. I'm hard of seeing so I use cheaters (magnifiers). Being able to see the puddle in all it's glory tells you a lot about what's happening and where.
A lot of guys don't cover up. Sure welding in short sleeves is manly but the hot bbs aren't what's dangerous it's the UV. Think skin cancer.
You'll probably want a good pair of welded pliers, extra tips, a wire wheel or two, maybe a good 5" grinder/sander. Different gloves. I only use the thick ones for dual shield now...
So yeah a good gas welder and safety equipment. Can't think of much more except chunks of metal to practice on. Pull the trigger and move

[Hubscrub]

as others have said practice, i stared out with junk metal laying around and still not a professional mig welder. I do use flux 110 holbart at home to do all my work been welding patches in my 59 grill just today with it. I want to get shielding gas and try some smaller wire for it and eventually a tig welder. I'm a very good tig welder which many finder harder to do, i learned at work where we build stainless restaurant equipment. Just get out there and do it, use good clean metal and go at it play with settings and you will get it.

[BR3W CITY]

Originally Posted by Hubscrub

use good clean metal and go at it play with settings and you will get it.

With TIG, if you can get a clean metal and a super-tight fittup, its like the smoothest most gratifying weld on the planet. I love a roll of dimes, but I REALLY love the look that a high-freq can put on an autogenous stainless weld. That blue gets me.

[bbcmudtruck]

I opted for the Hobart 210 MVP and couldn't be happier. I have a friend of 30 years that runs his own fabrication/welding shop and he has given it his blessing haha. He has a Miller 211 which is the sister to the Hobart 210 and he said if he has to buy another portable machine in that size, he will definitely buy the Hobart and save the extra cash over the Miller. Keep in mind, this is his lively hood and what he does day in and day out. Since he has ran my machine, he has went out and purchased a Hobart 140 Handler for his on the go 110 service calls. After having it for over a year now, he swears by it and doesn't have one negative thing to say about it. So, with that short little story, my main point is that for a 110 unit, your best bang for the buck is the Hobart 140. Its completely capable of welding anything on our old trucks. Here's a realistic break down of costs to get yourself started:

Hobart 140 Handler: $500
10lb spool of wire: $32 Depending on what your going to be welding, .030 or .035 for frame, and .023 for body work. I bought a 10lb spool of .030 as well as .023.
Welding pliers: $12 Don't overlook these, they are a must have for a wire machine.
Package of consumables: $20 Very handy to have extra consumables on hand and too cheap not to in my opinion.
Hood: $20-$250 You can go as wild as you want to when choosing a hood. I went with a Hobart hood around $90 bucks.
Package of extra lenses for your hood: $7 Again, to cheap not to have on hand.
Bottle: free-$200. You can either lease a bottle from your local welding shop or buy one. There are pros/cons to either decision. If you own your bottle, you can exchange it anywhere, however the initial investment can be higher. Leasing a bottle can be cheaper, however you are stuck to that company/hours/prices when you need gas. Look around on craigslist for a bottle before you go and lease one. You never know, you could get lucky and pick one up cheap.
Cart: $80-$300 Although you don't necessarily need a cart, your going to wish you had one! The cheaper carts from Northern Tool, Harbor Freight etc. are just that, CHEAP. I really don't have an answer to getting a good quality cart, aside from building your own. That however can be costly starting from scratch. I bought the $130 cabinet/cart from Northern Tool and have been making due with it. I don't want to get into the details, however in short, its junk.

There is a pretty good break down of equipment, parts and prices needed to get a nice mig welding operation set up. As your learning and gaining some seat time, you'll no doubt realize you still need more accessories and tools. Things like locking welding pliers, ie vice grips with different jaws and depths. Something else I use every time is a jar of splatter jelly. Its not a mandatory item, however I use it every time I weld. Its cheap and will last for years. Another thing that is nice to have is a flow meter, rather than the pressure regulator that comes with the welder. The pressure regulator isn't nearly as precise as a good flow meter. Again, the pressure regulator will work just fine, the flow meter is just better. Things like that will eventually be on your shopping list in the future. In all, I spent around $1500 getting my welder and accessories to compliment it. However I also bought a few things that are just nice to have, and not necessarily must have items. I still have a long list of tools that would be great to have when it comes to welding, but I'm a gear head and that list is never ending haha.

[Hubscrub]

Originally Posted by BR3W CITY

With TIG, if you can get a clean metal and a super-tight fittup, its like the smoothest most gratifying weld on the planet. I love a roll of dimes, but I REALLY love the look that a high-freq can put on an autogenous stainless weld. That blue gets me.

I agree a nice colorful, gold, blue fusion tig weld is beauty. But short lived at work because we polish them smooth and blend them in to the stainless.

[BR3W CITY]

Originally Posted by bbcmudtruck

I opted for the Hobart 210 MVP and couldn't be happier.

Your post made me laugh, since I bought the exact same welder a few years back, with the EXACT same thought process (and I also got my bottle for free). Frugal minds think alike. I'm the good kind of cheap.

[MP&C]

Sounds like you are primarily looking at automotive sheet metal work, a lot of your machine choice will be determined by how well you do in panel fitup. Mig is a bit more forgiving in wider and inconsistent panel gaps, as it is constantly adding feed wire. Let's call it a point and shoot. Tig is more of a manual dexterity challenge, as your feed hand needs to keep up with the torch hand, in coordination with the foot pedal. Now add a little excess panel gap and not enough feed and the heat will burn away at the parent metal, easily blowing a hole.


Given the limited panel thickness in welding sheet metal, heat control is a must. In using a Mig, it is nearly impossible to try a full pass weld with any semblance of consistency. Your start may be a little cold, showing little to no weld penetration on the back side, a little further along and you'll be getting a nice bead with full weld penetration, a little further once the panel has heated up and the weld will likely blow through. For this reason, and to try and have any consistency with the welds, Mig welding sheet metal is usually welded one dot at a time with the welder set hotter than normal to insure full weld penetration, wire feed a bit faster to help prevent any blowout, and weld size controlled by the length of the "zap".

Unfortunately, every time you weld one of these dots, the weld and HAZ (heat affected zone) shrink, pulling the surrounding panel in toward the center of the weld from all sides. This is best corrected by planishing each weld dot individually, and then grinding down to get it out of the way for the next set...

Example:

Tight fitting panels, no gaps..




First set of tacks...








Weld penetration, the back side....








Weld, planish, grind, overlap, repeat...








Planishing as you go helps to keep the panel's shape in check...











When welding patches and panels together you need full penetration welds to duplicate the factory metal by filling the seam. With a bit of metal bumping, the results above are about as filler free as you can get.

The ER70S-6 wire that typically comes with all Mig machines is a bit troublesome for sheet metal welding in that it hardens up a bit as it cools. This makes it more difficult to planish, and more of a chore to grind and sand down flush. There are other options to make this easier, EZ-Grind wire is softer making it easier to planish and grind, ER70S-7, in addition to those features, has more manganese in it's formulation for better wetting properties, which means better flowout to the parent metal and less proud on the weld. This helps to limit the amount of cleanup work afterward, and make what does need done easier. Still not as clean as a TIG, but it helps.


Tig. Welds are typically softer than the -6 Mig wire for an easier job of planishing the sheet metal, easier grinding/sanding the panel smooth. Full penetration Tig weld beads are typically less "proud" than their Mig counterpart, for less cleanup. Tig welding a continuous bead (as on a panel that has been tacked together) will have less shrinking and thus distortion issues than Mig. The continuous weld bead heats up and cools down progressively across the panel, so the shrinking effects are comparatively less than that of the shrink that occurs around each weld dot in Mig welding. For those really skilled at panel fitup, Tig also adds the option of fusion welding, ie: using no filler at all. This is beneficial on all aspects as there is virtually no grinding afterward, just a bit of planishing..:

OK, you guys have been hearing me talk about fusion welding and since I was in the shop today I decided to show a sample of the TIG fusion welding. This takes me a bit out of my comfort zone, as I normally pick up the MIG, but here we go. Separate halves tacked together:



Note the lack of/minimal amount of HAZ around the tacks. This was accomplished by holding the electrode as close as you can without touching and using a quick zap. If held farther away from the panel, you see more blue HAZ surrounding the tack. Here is the fusion weld, no filler added.






Back side.....




Then, using this anvil to planish out the weld and HAZ:




Results in this:

Front



Back



Nice and flat, no grinding required (in this case)






This method requires having an absolute tight joint, so fitment will be more time consuming, but just imagine all the time just saved over dressing out a MIG weld...

Sometimes welding on cars will put you in precarious positions that include laying on your back, under a car, under a dash, etc, where filler feed, torch hand, and pedal application just don't seem to want to work together harmoniously. It is predicaments like this that the "point and shoot" of a Mig comes in handy. Hopefully that gives you some pros and cons to consider in the Mig vs. Tig as pertaining to sheet metal.

[bbcmudtruck]

Very informative write up MP&C. Thank you!

[1malo68]

Here's a pretty informative website worth looking at.

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/...-settings.html

[BR3W CITY]

MP&C - I want to clarify the technique you mentioned towards the beginning of that little article.

When you have the tack,planish,grind,overlap etc...are you actually grinding each tack individually? Usually when I do it, I'll do the starting tacks' as you did, but then I do small stitches and continue to the grind and planish steps. Neither way is "fast" but if your grinding each one individually, its gotta take a day to weld 18" !

[MP&C]

First, I'll be the last person to say this is the right way, the only way, etc. As the more correct way would not involve a Mig
It works for me, and has helped others. If you have a method that works, then by all means use it and share it. Let people see it and try it, they can have options..

Part of the methods I describe from fit-up to final weld dressing is all in an attempt to maintain consistency throughout. I do the planish first as it seems to better negate the shrink that pulled from all directions by stretching in all directions. Then grinding it down gets it out of the way for planishing the next (overlapped) weld.

All of us have seen distortion in the panel from welding. Even when using a tig, you will see some distortion, but regardless of the process, it is most notable on any areas of CHANGE. A start, short weld pass, and a stop, will show a different HAZ at the ends than it does in the middle of the "weld pass". Feeling the panel after cooling, you can also detect a slight ripple at these changes. Welding sheet metal with a Mig is one of the worst methods going, based primarily on all the cleanup work it entails. The best going is a no-gap, no-filler fusion weld using either Tig or O/A. The fusion weld also limits the distortion as the starts and stops are at the ends only, and HAZ between is about as consistent as you can get, from consistent heat and not stopping...

So yes, even though the "dot" method takes a bit of time, it's intent is to provide a full penetrating weld each and every time, and promote consistency in weld size and thus HAZ size. On a lengthy weld there will be a number of welds tacked in place, preferably spaced evenly, where once you get done with the last weld, the first should be cool. Same effect with grinding. So there is a somewhat "assembly line" to the process, it's not like we're only working one weld at a time, start to finish. The initial planishing should remove any shrinking issues. A short burst of a weld pass is not the end of the world, but I'd venture to say that from start to finish the weld size will be difficult to maintain in sizing and weld penetration consistency. Any larger welds or larger areas on weld passes will affect both HAZ and distortion.

So as you can see, the process is done to promote an almost OCD effect of welding dots all the same, planishing all the same, overlapping all the same, etc. Even though Mig is the worst process to use, the methods to my madness are an attempt to bring more consistency to the processes throughout, for more consistency in straightening the panel out in the end, for HOPEFULLY less filler needed. And again, if someone has a method that works, by all means, use what you're comfortable with.