Who makes the longest lasting camshafts.

[Longhorn 70]

I hear a lot of people saying their cam is flattened or has bad lobes. Who makes the longest lasting camshafts... Or a better question, who has the best hardened camshafts. Not that it's a pain to change them in our trucks but I only want to do it once. I will do proper break in and use Rotella oil as I have for years.

[enaberif]

Problem isn't so much the camshaft as the oils used. Modern oils don't contain enough ZDDP in it and it wipes out cams and other engine parts very quickly. Also people may not break in the cam properly and do the same thing.

[steelhorse]

Convert to a roller setup and you don't have to worry about it.

[theonlyiceman53]

I wiped out a cam several years ago and then found out about the lack of zinc in the oils due to the Feds mandating it. I converted to roller and haven't looked back. It would probably be OK with the enhanced oils or additives but other than price the rollers are superior for me.

[67 cst swb]

Use a Zinc (such as ZDDP) additive and follow proper break-in procedures.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Longhorn 70

I hear a lot of people saying their cam is flattened or has bad lobes. Who makes the longest lasting camshafts... Or a better question, who has the best hardened camshafts. Not that it's a pain to change them in our trucks but I only want to do it once. I will do proper break in and use Rotella oil as I have for years.

Sub'd.

I don't have any idea who makes the longest lasting camshafts. I've heard conflicting stories on "Parkerizing", some swear by it others say it wears out the lifters. I don't know if you can use a hardened cam on a flat tappet, I suspect they are made a certain way because they have to be.

That being said, I do know it's best to keep valve-train mass as low as possible. Lightweight everything, upper springs, retainers, valves, rockers, pushrods, etc.

And keep valve spring pressure as low as possible. Those go hand in hand, less mass requires less spring pressure.

The newer valvesprings with the Beehive and Inverted Conical designs are able to control valve float MUCH better than old designs with less pressure, but it's hard to find a drop-in spring such as this without race inspired excessive pressure for what street daily pickup drivers want for the most part.

This guy seems to have the right pressure valvesprings for stock and mild cams, and he sells retainers to fit as well. But be careful dealing with him, ask specific questions before you buy and make double sure you are getting what you ask for and that the specifications are expected to be 100% accurate. And If he does not want to accept paypal, I'd back off.
http://www.alexsparts.com/beehive-va...stock-to-mild/

And you want to run the best lifters available. Read this:
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...ppet-cam-tech/
And get these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SBC-DELPHI-L...662d12&vxp=mtr

And, of course, proper break-in as you no doubt know, and that includes valve spring break-in and oil pump priming until the lifters are full as well, and that is an extra two steps.

And don't forget to put in a new distributor gear and fuel pump pushrod compatible to the new cam you choose so that all parts of the cam will last as long as possible. Often over-looked. Trashed distributor gear ruins a cam, and flat fuel pump eccentric necessitates an electric fuel pump (pita).

[alsriv2]

Originally Posted by steelhorse

Convert to a roller setup and you don't have to worry about it.

This^^^

Roller cams are a bit more expensive than a standard cam but they tolerate todays oils so much better due to the lesser amount of friction and heat buildup. You can obtain one in a variety of grinds from close to stock to wild and outrageous.

[Longhorn 70]

Maybe I could have worded my question differently. Which type of camshaft hardening is better? Induction or flame hardening? Who uses which method?

[Bowtiguy]

Rollers and high zinc will help , especially if it sees racing high RPM.

I'd start with a cam ground from a billet core. My Lingenfelter GT 19 camshaft for my LS7 427 was a stock comp cams core. Lobes didn't last past 5K miles and took my Morel $1000 link bar lifters with it. When I do ANY cam changes in the future, it will be with a billet cam. My engine builder runs them in his drag motors, everything over 1" lift has never had a problem. He does replace springs regularly, but thats normal for his application.

Hope that helps.

[Eddie H.]

I personally believe that most of the flat tappet cam problems that have been happening in recent years are due to poor quality cores rather than reduced zinc additives in the oils. I was working for GM dealers in the early 80's when they decided to try and save a little money by using inferior cam cores and the end result was massive cam failures. That was way before the reformulated oils came along. Why do some companies like Comp Cams , seem to have a high percentage of failures, while others like Lunati, Crane, or Howard's, don't seem to be having that much of a problem? I don't know for sure, but it leads me to believe that it is a quality control issue more than anything else.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Eddie H.

I personally believe that most of the flat tappet cam problems that have been happening in recent years are due to poor quality cores rather than reduced zinc additives in the oils. I was working for GM dealers in the early 80's when they decided to try and save a little money by using inferior cam cores and the end result was massive cam failures. That was way before the reformulated oils came along. Why do some companies like Comp Cams , seem to have a high percentage of failures, while others like Lunati, Crane, or Howard's, don't seem to be having that much of a problem? I don't know for sure, but it leads me to believe that it is a quality control issue more than anything else.

I ordered a crane cam, it came in a comp box with a sticker over the part number with a crane number. It has lasted about 100,000 miles and the lifters are now concave. I'm tearing it down as we speak and am trying to decide what to put back in it. I like this conversation so far hope it helps me and the OP.

[CorDog009]

Originally Posted by steelhorse

Convert to a roller setup and you don't have to worry about it.

This. I'll never run anything else.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Longhorn 70

Maybe I could have worded my question differently. Which type of camshaft hardening is better? Induction or flame hardening? Who uses which method?

I'm "all in" on this as I'm preparing to replace one of my cams in one of my drivers. You got me wondering too. I find some info seems contradictive, but my lack of understanding metallurgy might be my problem.

Specific to camshafts:
FLAME HARDENING:

"A heat-treating process in which a camshaft is exposed to an open flame and then quenched (cooled) in oil".

INDUCTION HARDENING:

"An electrical heat-treating process in which a ferrous part is placed inside a coil of heavy wire through which a high-frequency current is passed. Through the electro-magnetic phenomenon of induction, energy transfers from the coil to the part. The part inside the coil becomes cherry red almost instantly, and is then quenched. The quench medium is either water (for large parts, like cam billets) or oil (for small parts, like needle bearing rollers, to forestall cracking)".
http://www.elgincams.com/glossary.html

Non-specific industrial information:
Induction Hardening

"Induction hardening is a process used for the surface hardening of steel and other alloy components. The parts to be heat treated are placed inside a water cooled copper coil and then heated above their transformation temperature by applying an alternating current to the coil. The alternating current in the coil induces an alternating magnetic field within the work piece, which if made from steel, caused the outer surface of the part to heat to a temperature above the transformation range. Parts are held at that temperature until the appropriate depth of hardening has been achieved, and then quenched in oil, or another media, depending upon the steel type and hardness desired. The core of the component remains unaffected by the treatment and its physical properties are those of the bar from which it was machined or preheat treated. The hardness of the case can be HRC 37 - 58. Carbon and alloy steels with a carbon content in the range 0.40 - 0.45% are most suitable for this process. In some cases, parts made from alloy steels such as 4320, 8620 or 9310, like steel and paper mill rolls, are first carburized to a required case depth and slow cooled, and then induction hardened. This is to realize the benefit of relatively high core mechanical properties, and surface hardness greater than HRC 60, which provides excellent protection".

"While induction hardening is most commonly used for steel parts, other alloys such as copper alloys, which are solution treated and tempered, may be induction hardened as well. Applications include hardening bearing races, gears, pinion shafts, crane (and other) wheels and treads, and threaded pipe used for oil patch drilling".


Induction Flame Hardening

"Flame hardening is similar to induction hardening, in that it is a surface hardening process. Heat is applied to the part being hardened, using an oxy- acetylene (or similar gas) flame on the surface of the steel being hardened and heating the surface above the upper critical temperature before quenching the steel in a spray of water. The result is a hard surface layer ranging from 0.050" to 0.250" deep. As with induction hardening, the steel component must have sufficient carbon (greater than 0.35%). The composition of the steel is not changed; therefore core mechanical properties are unaffected. Flame hardening produces results similar to conventional hardening processes but with less hardness penetration. Applications for flame hardening are similar to those for induction hardening, although an advantage of flame hardening is the ability to harden flat surfaces. Flat wear plates, and knives can be selectively hardened using this process".
http://www.metlabheattreat.com/induc...hardening.html

Well, EVERYBODY makes the "best" camshaft LOL so I think it boils down to quality control and failure rate statistics, and we don't have much access to that info that I'm aware of, hope somebody chimes in.

"The overwhelming majority of industry flat-tappet cam blanks are made by two big independent factories in Michigan. In other words, just about everyone's flat-tappet cam blanks are, says Rabotnick, "cast in the same place, and the hardening for them is all done in the same place. A cam blank doesn't know whether it'll be any specific blank; the various cam grinders merely put the finished lobes on the already hardened blank. In fact, for high-volume cams, some cam companies may outsource the entire production of the cam to one of these two big factories." Since these factories have been making cams to OEM quality standards for years, and they supply the cores for just about everyone, it's hard to accept that they would be putting the wrong heat-treat on them, or that the standard test would use a weird heat-treat not supported by mainstream core manufacturers".

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...ppet-cam-tech/

My limited understanding of this makes me think that an induction hardened part, when first carburized, is the hardest (HRC 60, whatever that is). And I'm not sure it can be done to cast iron, although I lightly assume so.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Bowtiguy

Rollers and high zinc will help , especially if it sees racing high RPM.

I'd start with a cam ground from a billet core. My Lingenfelter GT 19 camshaft for my LS7 427 was a stock comp cams core. Lobes didn't last past 5K miles and took my Morel $1000 link bar lifters with it. When I do ANY cam changes in the future, it will be with a billet cam. My engine builder runs them in his drag motors, everything over 1" lift has never had a problem. He does replace springs regularly, but thats normal for his application.

Hope that helps.

Can you run a billet core on flat tappet hydraulic lifters? I keep hearing "comp cams" in camshaft failure conversations.

[Eddie H.]

The lifters are another consideration. If inferior quality lifters are used, it doesn't matter how good the cam is. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

[Eddie H.]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Can you run a billet core on flat tappet hydraulic lifters? I keep hearing "comp cams" in camshaft failure conversations.

I also have heard a great number of horror stories about Comp Cams. I have never used one, so I can't speak from personal experience, but I'm thinking that improper installation or break in may have a big part of those problems. I worked as a professional mechanic, for more than 35 years, built numerous engines, and never had a cam failure. (I mostly used cams made by Crane, Melling, or the OEM engine manufacturer)

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Eddie H.

I also have heard a great number of horror stories about Comp Cams. I have never used one, so I can't speak from personal experience, but I'm thinking that improper installation or break in may have a big part of those problems. I worked as a professional mechanic, for more than 35 years, built numerous engines, and never had a cam failure. (I mostly used cams made by Crane, Melling, or the OEM engine manufacturer)

Wow you must be my long lost twin LOL. X2. And X2 on the quality of the lifter.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Longhorn 70

Maybe I could have worded my question differently. Which type of camshaft hardening is better? Induction or flame hardening? Who uses which method?

So what is better, induction or flame hardening? Clear as mud isn't it LOL.

I think I'm going to look into a premium core and get a custom grind. Look at this link and scroll down to page 22.
http://www.crower.com/media/pdf/chevrolet.pdf

Now I'm not saying I'm going to get it from Crower, but I'm hearing good things about the P55 castings.

And I'm still researching it. Still up in the air about Parkerizing.

[special-K]

Nitride treatment

[Lattimer]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

So what is better, induction or flame hardening? Clear as mud isn't it LOL.

I think I'm going to look into a premium core and get a custom grind. Look at this link and scroll down to page 22.
http://www.crower.com/media/pdf/chevrolet.pdf

Now I'm not saying I'm going to get it from Crower, but I'm hearing good things about the P55 castings.

And I'm still researching it. Still up in the air about Parkerizing.

I deal with some of this stuff in industry (mechanical engineer). From what I have seen, induction hardening tends to get deeper into the part and gives a more consistent hardness. You can get a harder part without going too far and making it brittle. The induction process is a little more precise than flame hardening.

Parkerizing has limited usefulness. Its basically a coating, and its very thin. Once it wears, its gone. Depending on the quality of the part, and the quality of the Parkerizing, YMMV. I've always seen it as more corrosion protection than anything (gun finishes).

[Lattimer]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

My limited understanding of this makes me think that an induction hardened part, when first carburized, is the hardest (HRC 60, whatever that is). And I'm not sure it can be done to cast iron, although I lightly assume so.

HRC 60----Rockwell C hardness measurement of 60. In other words---very friggin' hard.

There are several common scales to measure hardness. Rockwell C is one. I use that or Brinell most often.

http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/hardness.htm


You can harden cast iron, but its a brittle material to begin with. As you harden it the brittleness increases, so you have to be careful where to draw the line.

[Lattimer]

All that being said----I don't know what makes a better camshaft. I've only seen a couple flat tappets wipe out, and they have been 150k+ miles and not treated well. I wish I could have sprung for a roller in my crate, but it wasn't in the cards at the time.