Ball Joints made from scratch?

[greatdaen]

I have a similar post in the 6066 Parts Board, but figured this might be a better place.

I have a 61 GMC 4000 Series (2.5 ton). The ball joints are shot and replacements just don't exist. Has anyone had a set of ball joints made from scratch?

I would like to hear thoughts/feedback.

Did the parts work correctly?
Did they hold up (durabililty)?
Did the suspension operate correctly?
Was the cost reasonable?
Were all the pieces made from scratch or were some of them stock items (like the ball stud)?
What material were the pieces machined from?
What was the shop that did the work?
Suggestions for stock item sources.
Does any know of a source to get the original part drawing with dimensions? (I have the parts manual).

Thanks in advance,

-dch

[jamis]

I never heard of anyone making one from scratch, and I dont know if I would trust it. There are just to many varibles like material, hardness, crush.....etc,

I would take out the original, measure it and try to find one that is close to it or a bit larger, then machine the spindle to fit. A lot of time you will find lazy parts persons that just dont want to take the time to look at spec/picture catalog and find you one just like it, also try a heavy duty truck parts supplier if you havent yet.

I have never work on a truck of that year and model, I'm surprised it doesnt have a straight axle and king pins instead of ball joints.

[greatdaen]

1960 - 1962 model years had a torsion-bar independent front suspension in the 2.5 ton and 3.5 ton GMC trucks. 1963 switched back to straight axle / king pin.

The ball joint suspension was short-lived for a couple of reasons: one was the durability, the trucks ate ball joints for lunch. 20,000 to 30,000 and they are done. Second, it has been suggested, but I don't have the facts in front of me, there there was some patent infringement on GM's part and they were forced to abandon the design for leagal reasons.

Replacements for these have not been available since perhaps the mid-80's. Since there are not a lot of these vehicles on the road, it is not worth anyone's money to tool up for replacements - like TRW or Moog.

As for finding a similar size... I don't think anyone else ever attempted to run ball joints in that tonage of truck. The form factor of the upper ball joint is similar to most. The lower ball joint is a completely different animal. Instead of mounting "into" the lower control arm, the LCA is made up of two pieces of angle iron that come together at the ball joint. The ball joint is the structural member that joins the two halves of the LCA as well as being the lower shock absorber mount.

I have been around some custom fabbed ball joints used in off-road racing. But these are typically run for one race and then checked/rebuilt/replaced.... So although they worked on the race car, there is no track record for durability. Also the race cars are weighing around 6000 lbs - much less than a 14,000 lbs gvw loaded with hay. On the other hand, if anyone has ever observed a SCORE trophey truck going full tilt, the dynamic loading on one of those ball joints is severe. Just thinking out loud here....

The other issue is cost. Although spares are rare it is still hard to justify $$$$ for a set of ball joints when the truck is only worth $. But when you already own the truck, it seems silly to buy another one just because of ball joints.

We did look into swapping out the front suspension for a straight axle. The entire front frame section is different. This would involve a bunch of work - basically a full front frame clip swap. Again, the time and money required far outweighs the value of the vehicle.

Attached is an approximate CAD drawing of what the lower ball joint look like and a CAD drawing of the LCA.

-dch

[greatdaen]

And the LCA

[jamis]

I never seen anything like that before, I can see why they dont use it anymore. I placed some calls to a few of the heavy truck parts dealers I do buisness with to see if they know anything.

I will let you know if they have any sugestions.

[greatdaen]

Jamis,

Much appreciated.

In our search for these parts, we have had several people try to sell us ball joints for a 3500 series 1-ton. Not the same parts.

We thought we had a set tracked down through an ad in Hemmings. But that has turned into a story fit for a "made for TV" movie.

The guy had a bunch of NOS parts and had the ball joints. He tried to mail them, but UPS wouldn't accept his cardboard box based on the weight. So he had to make a wooden box. This guy was retired and was never in much of a hurry.

Well over the next 5 or 6 years, he moved, then called. Was going to ship - no parts. We called - phone disconnected. Did some research, just a change of telephone area code. Found out guy died. Widow new all about the parts. Would get someone to build shipping box. No parts. Called back. Son sold all parts to man across town. Called new guy. He didn't know what parts he had, but he would look. No feed back. Called. New guy just hadn't got around to it. Friend was traveling cross-country. Went 300 miles out of way to visit new guy and look for part. New guy was very happy to help on the telephone. Friend showed up and new guy 'blew him off' - didn't feel like looking.

That's our little soap opera. We have finally written this source off. It is cost prohibitive to fly halfway across the country for parts we don't even know we can find.

BTW, if anyone lives in the Wichita, KS area and has nothing better to do, that's where these parts supposedly are.

...sorry for the rant....

-dch

[jamis]

give this a shot (in the dark)

http://www.usedpartslive.com/gmcheav...sionparts.html

[greatdaen]

Here is a little better rendering of the LCA setup.

-dch

[greatdaen]

And here is a closeup of the better Lower Ball Joint

-dch

[jamis]

Looks like your a pro with CAD

I talked with a couple of my venders that find obsolete parts for me, but none of them found anything. The only other thing they can suggest is try an International truck dealer, sometimes International and GMC share a lot of things in common. The most difficult part is finding a counter person that is willing to really put in the effort to help you out.

Looks like you already have spent a lot of time researching this, I don’t know if I would have your patience. From your pics it almost looks like you can remove the ball and socket and retrofit it with another balljoint. the only problem being, finding one that will meet the weight specs.

Best of luck in your search

Juan