Power steering frame damage fix

[Captainfab]

The only time you need to do anything with the idler arm, is if you upgrade to the '71-'87 idler arm and entire steering linkage, which is what I always recommend. If you still have the original idler arm, you do not need to do anything. The difference in the left and right turning radius caused by the addition of the steering box adapter plate, can be corrected with a proper alignment.

Originally Posted by scum1

well, the reason I thought I might need to adjust the idler arm is because the powersteering box will be in a slightly different position with this adapter plate which changes the pitman arm position, which changes the draglink position, etc..

maybe it wont move it as much as I think it will. I just need to make sure when everything is installed that the drag link bar is still running parallel with the crossmember..

I don't think I mentioned earlier in the thread that the front end on this truck is out of a 70-71 c10..when I replaced ball joints, tierods etc earlier in my build all the parts were for a 71 c10. The idler arm looks like a stock arm (63-66) and I thought I remember seeing posts about having todrill new holes and reposition the idler arm when switching x members and steering components..maybe im mistaken

and also to note to people viewing/helping out, im not going from manual to power steering, I am correcting an existing power steering swap.

[scum1]

So, I got some things done today..changed up the plan a little bit though.

Instead of using captain fabs template for the four new holes (which were way too close to the holes drilled by the p/o), i used the existing ones with a back plate as well.

the alignment of my power steering box to the column was not a straight/direct shot with either of the configurations, so i saved the time and hassle of drilling 4 new holes to mount it and used the existing ones.

Because of the mis alignment, and not by a whole lot, just not a straight line, i decided to not use any type of rag joint and opted to make a new steering shaft all together.

I will be going Power steering box--->3/4 30 spline-3/4DD---->DD shaft cut to length----> 3/4DD-3/4 36 spline--steering column

The two u joints will give me the correct orientation. I hope i don't have a problem with vibration, but i know lots of people who prefer u joints to rag joints anyhow.

Im waiting for those to come in the mail and i will assemble and update.

oh and i also got the box mounted with the pitman arm into the drag link and everything lined up just fine. I might need to double check alignment afterwards..but no problems at all. just makin a mountain of a mole hill i guess.

[scum1]

hey guys so heres a little update on my power steering problem..

Frame was cracked, now its fixed. Captain fabs plate is on, another plate on the back to sandwich the frame.

Steering linkage is new, see above for details..

Ive been trying to figure out why the hell I preferred the way that it drove before i fixed the play that was in the rag joint (sheared splines). It drives HORRIBLE compared to what it used to. I used to tell people it drove like a caddy. now it drives like Ive had one too many. Side to side, hard to control (zip left, zip right).
its almost like i have no power steering when going straight and making slight movements. its real tight on the road and i have to concentrate on keeping it where i want.

Let me tell you things I've considered and checked.

-Alignment. toe is good, camber caster was not/should not have been affected during this process. have a friend at firestone and had ten guys tell me its not the alignment as well.

- Air in the system. I bled this thing 5 times 5 different ways. Tires off the ground, car on, car off, lock to lock, just shy of lock to lock, i even took an old reservoir cap and hooked a vacuum tube to my manifold vacuum. I am about 99.9% sure there is no air in the system.

Looking at adjustments on the box. Worm gear/input shaft ? adjustment looks to me like it is just about bottomed out as far as i can tell. you can only see about one thread above the locknut when it is tight. which means its at the end of its days.

the lash/hexkey locknut adjuster..was adjusted till it makes contact then backed out. But i didn't feel any difference. I played with that for a while and could not see any affects.

Doing some searching online i have found people explaining my exact problem on numerous threads, even when purchasing a brand new box, but no one seems to narrow it down. ( http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/ne...eering-766892/ ) I understand that these boxes have been built to "stay centered" and I've read just about everything i can come across on rebuilds, problems, troubleshooting etc..

Has anyone experienced this type of problem? Ive driven lots of classic cars and none drive like this. It drives like S***

Sorry for my rant, i just really regret touching anything.

[padresag]

Originally Posted by scum1

hey guys so heres a little update on my power steering problem..

Frame was cracked, now its fixed. Captain fabs plate is on, another plate on the back to sandwich the frame.

Steering linkage is new, see above for details..

Ive been trying to figure out why the hell I preferred the way that it drove before i fixed the play that was in the rag joint (sheared splines). It drives HORRIBLE compared to what it used to. I used to tell people it drove like a caddy. now it drives like Ive had one too many. Side to side, hard to control (zip left, zip right).
its almost like i have no power steering when going straight and making slight movements. its real tight on the road and i have to concentrate on keeping it where i want.

Let me tell you things I've considered and checked.

-Alignment. toe is good, camber caster was not/should not have been affected during this process. have a friend at firestone and had ten guys tell me its not the alignment as well.

- Air in the system. I bled this thing 5 times 5 different ways. Tires off the ground, car on, car off, lock to lock, just shy of lock to lock, i even took an old reservoir cap and hooked a vacuum tube to my manifold vacuum. I am about 99.9% sure there is no air in the system.

Looking at adjustments on the box. Worm gear/input shaft ? adjustment looks to me like it is just about bottomed out as far as i can tell. you can only see about one thread above the locknut when it is tight. which means its at the end of its days.

the lash/hexkey locknut adjuster..was adjusted till it makes contact then backed out. But i didn't feel any difference. I played with that for a while and could not see any affects.

Doing some searching online i have found people explaining my exact problem on numerous threads, even when purchasing a brand new box, but no one seems to narrow it down. ( http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/ne...eering-766892/ ) I understand that these boxes have been built to "stay centered" and I've read just about everything i can come across on rebuilds, problems, troubleshooting etc..

Has anyone experienced this type of problem? Ive driven lots of classic cars and none drive like this. It drives like S***

Sorry for my rant, i just really regret touching anything.

"Alignment. toe is good, camber caster was not/should not have been affected during this process. have a friend at firestone and had ten guys tell me its not the alignment as well. "the friend at firestone and your 10 buddies said your alignment was good. did they look under your truck with a beer in their hand ans say , yup it looks good!!!. get a proper alignment done. you didn't mount the box really as advised- too much work?
it may still also be the steering box itself. you don't know. what caused the frame to crack? what caused the splines to strip out. there has to be a reason. There was more than likely more flex in the frame and slop in the splines that is what gave you the caddy feel
ron

[wcstory]

Originally Posted by scum1

It drives HORRIBLE compared to what it used to. I used to tell people it drove like a caddy. now it drives like Ive had one too many. Side to side, hard to control (zip left, zip right).
its almost like i have no power steering when going straight and making slight movements. its real tight on the road and i have to concentrate on keeping it where i want.

It is entirely possible your gear box could have issues from the re-manufacturer.

What steering gear did you put in? There are the older ones with 4 turns stop to stop and the newer quick ratio 3 1/2 turns.

Second do you have the original steering wheel?

The heavy handed steering may be a combination of the two.

The original steering wheel was a wide diameter to give more leverage to turn the old manual box. Second if you ordered a quick ratio steering gear a little turn goes a lot further than you were used to.

When I changed my '66 it was a huge difference in feel and behavior. It took me a while to get used to driving it. I kind of wish I had put in a 4 turn gear box.

Be careful on adjusting the steering gear. I readjusted my '78 Camaro for more responsive steering and it worked.......TOO well. I had to steer 100% of the time while driving. I ended up taking it to a steering shop to fix my bright idea.

[scum1]

Originally Posted by padresag

"Alignment. toe is good, camber caster was not/should not have been affected during this process. have a friend at firestone and had ten guys tell me its not the alignment as well. "the friend at firestone and your 10 buddies said your alignment was good. did they look under your truck with a beer in their hand ans say , yup it looks good!!!. get a proper alignment done. you didn't mount the box really as advised- too much work?
it may still also be the steering box itself. you don't know. what caused the frame to crack? what caused the splines to strip out. there has to be a reason. There was more than likely more flex in the frame and slop in the splines that is what gave you the caddy feel
ron

no beer, just ten different Firestone employees , one of them my friend. they cant do an alignment the proper way there. its too low. itstays on the crown of the road
without going left to right. slight movement of the wheel causes extreme movement of tires still.

the only thing that was not done correct was the exact placement of the box. to put it in the exact place as captain fab template holes would of been drilled over existing holes, putting twice as big oblong holes in the frame. I don't see the placement ofmy box being the issue as long as the center link is parallel with cross member , the steering shaft is made of two u joints and there is no binding. pitman arm is level, not at a weird angle. I think besides the fact that I only used three of the four mounting holes, which is not uncommon in other four mount boxes, there should be no problem with the box mounting. there is no out of the ordinary flex I can see when turning the wheel either.

I would agree that it stripped for a reason which as far as I can tell is poor alignment from steering column down to input shaft. which has been corrected with u joints

[scum1]

Originally Posted by wcstory

It is entirely possible your gear box could have issues from the re-manufacturer.

What steering gear did you put in? There are the older ones with 4 turns stop to stop and the newer quick ratio 3 1/2 turns.

Second do you have the original steering wheel?

The heavy handed steering may be a combination of the two.

The original steering wheel was a wide diameter to give more leverage to turn the old manual box. Second if you ordered a quick ratio steering gear a little turn goes a lot further than you were used to.

When I changed my '66 it was a huge difference in feel and behavior. It took me a while to get used to driving it. I kind of wish I had put in a 4 turn gear box.

Be careful on adjusting the steering gear. I readjusted my '78 Camaro for more responsive steering and it worked.......TOO well. I had to steer 100% of the time while driving. I ended up taking it to a steering shop to fix my bright idea.

I did not change steering boxes, its the same one from before. now I don't know exactly what kind it is except its a saginw with a 3/4 30 spline input shaft.

I've heard mixed responses about adjusting the steering gear. at this point I'm gonna try everything. the end result could be a new box

thanks for the replies guys

[padresag]

how much free play in the steering wheel?
All 10 of these firestone friends all all trained alignment techs? interesting that the vehicle is to low to get on the ramp, but the alignment is perfect. this smells better all the time
ron

[scum1]

steering wheel "play" side to side is minimal, maybe 1/2 inch before engagement. it feels OK there. like I said before it just feels tight and the wheel doesnt want to return to center. its a two hand on the wheel from now on feel. if you asking me if I checked credentials of all Firestone employees, it must of slipped my mind. i never said the alignment was perfect.what im saying is from researching the problem and seeing other similar problems, alignment doesnt sound like the culprit. they said they cant attach the lasers because my ride height is too low. not because of ramps. maybe I'll check another shop.

the only other thing im wondering is the adjuster on top of the box is often referred to as the over center adjuster by some people. which sounds like what I would be wanting to adjust. however I am not seeing any change in feel when adjusting. it seems contradictory that a worn box would be tight in the sector shaft and not very loose. is it possible something is stuck? I'm playing a guessing game I know. an alignment and new box would eliminate two variables and probably 200 bucks. I'll have to hold off if that is the case

[padresag]

Originally Posted by scum1

steering wheel "play" side to side is minimal, maybe 1/2 inch before engagement. it feels OK there. like I said before it just feels tight and the wheel doesnt want to return to center. its a two hand on the wheel from now on feel. if you asking me if I checked credentials of all Firestone employees, it must of slipped my mind. i never said the alignment was perfect.what im saying is from researching the problem and seeing other similar problems, alignment doesnt sound like the culprit. they said they cant attach the lasers because my ride height is too low. not because of ramps. maybe I'll check another shop.

the only other thing im wondering is the adjuster on top of the box is often referred to as the over center adjuster by some people. which sounds like what I would be wanting to adjust. however I am not seeing any change in feel when adjusting. it seems contradictory that a worn box would be tight in the sector shaft and not very loose. is it possible something is stuck? I'm playing a guessing game I know. an alignment and new box would eliminate two variables and probably 200 bucks. I'll have to hold off if that is the case

is your life not wort $200.00 or perhaps someone else's if you create a mishap. by the way 1/2" is more than likely to tight. if it feels tight then it more than likely is. not returning is a symptem of a tight box.
you can kill yourself but don't take anyone with you!
ron

[scum1]

if you gave some good advice it be easier to digest your posts.. if you could tell me specifically how this is a dangerous situation, id be all ears. I'm explaining an uncomfortable driving response in comparison to before. i have a gf to give me attitude, i don't need another.

[padresag]

you seem to have a problem steering it yet you claim everything is good. it feels tight and it doesn't seem to return right. what happens if you are going around a corner and it locks up and you hit someone. is that clear enough.
ron

[vince1]

Somewhere there is a chart listing pump P/N's and their corresponding pressures. I think it was put together by an engineer or someone who worked for GM. The older pumps maybe put out lower pressure. It could be that pressures changed according to the spring that is behind the fitting in the pump. Could it be that maybe your pump pressure is too high?

[scum1]

Originally Posted by vince1

Somewhere there is a chart listing pump P/N's and their corresponding pressures. I think it was put together by an engineer or someone who worked for GM. The older pumps maybe put out lower pressure. It could be that pressures changed according to the spring that is behind the fitting in the pump. Could it be that maybe your pump pressure is too high?

i suppose that could could be a possibility. i see what you are saying. Why would that all of a sudden be an issue now? the pump, box, and lines are all the same as before, the only thing changed was the power steering box moving outward maybe an 1/8", the shaft becoming two u joints, and a slight toe adjustment to compensate for the box's new position.

Maybe i should give this a try. http://billshotrodcompany.com/17022.html

sounds like it could be worth a shot.

[vince1]

I hadn't realized you have all the same components on. No binding anywhere? You should be able to go one finger lock to lock, at least mine does.

I will say that with mine going from worn out manual 7 turns to the PS setup with about 3 1/2 turns, it is much more sensitive. It still runs down the road straight with hands off, just moves a lot quicker when ordered to do so.

Like my Canadian aviation hall of fame flying instructor Helen Harrison used to yell at me about 40 years ago, pretend you are holding on to a canary bird.

[scum1]

Originally Posted by vince1

I hadn't realized you have all the same components on. No binding anywhere? You should be able to go one finger lock to lock, at least mine does.

I will say that with mine going from worn out manual 7 turns to the PS setup with about 3 1/2 turns, it is much more sensitive. It still runs down the road straight with hands off, just moves a lot quicker when ordered to do so.

Like my Canadian aviation hall of fame flying instructor Helen Harrison used to yell at me about 40 years ago, pretend you are holding on to a canary bird.

hahah i like that..a canary bird..then everything is fine!

[PGSigns]

One thing that has not been discussed is the bleeding of the system. With the tight box and the funky steering it sounds like the box has air in it. Jack up the front to get the weight of the tires and turn the wheel lock to lock about 20 times with out the engine running and then try the power steering. Had to do this about 3 times on the 66 when it went back together to get the power steering box to play well.
Jimmy

[donthekawguy]

With the capt template you should be able to use all four bolt holes. The bottom rear hole I had to use an allen head bolt to get it tight. Probably not anything to do with your problem but use em if you got em.

[scum1]

Im going to be taking off the box to do an adjustment for those who might be interested. If getting a new box is even a consideration I'm going to adjust this box as much as possible. Cant hurt. Here is a post I'm referencing. Problem and solution.

I've had some play in the steering gearbox for a while. I had the shop tell me the gearbox needed to be replaced, and that it was nothing urgent. After some research, I discovered you can tighten up the gears. On top of the box (remove auxiliary fan to get at it), there's a lock nut. Loosen that and use an allen wrench to turn the screw and tighten it down, being careful not to tighten too much. Too tight will cause binding. Anyway, I tightened it up, but then now the steering doesn't naturally go back to center while driving. Going down the road, it's much more responsive, but if you turn it a tad to the left, it stays left; tad to the right, and it stays right...and holding center, it will stay center. This makes for kind of a forced driving feel, as you know, the steering (when working properly) tends to re-center itself. Any ideas why this would be happening? I don't think it's an alignment problem, but one never knows.

Solution
There are three "phases" to this project: 1) removing the box from your Jeep; 2) adjusting the box; 3) reinstalling the box and refilling and bleeding your power steering system. You will need a couple of "special" tools: a pitman arm puller and tie rod end puller of the appropriate sizes. You will need a set of large needle nose pliers that are bent at 90 deg. and whose jaws will open 2-3 inches (in lieu of the "special" spanner wrench the job calls for). You will need a socket to fit the pitman arm nut on the steering box (it's big) and a cheater bar ('cause it's torqued down pretty tight). Check with your local auto parts store as many now loan tools free with a credit card imprint. While you're there you should be able to score the socket and pliers; if the pullers are loaners, you ought to be able to walk out of the store with a $25 lighter wallet. If you don't have one already, this would be a perfect excuse to buy a factory shop manual for your XJ. These MOPAR manuals are soooo much better than the Chiltons/Haynes books.... and the correct procedure, step by step, for adjusting the steering box is in there. Try eBay or these guys:

(www.factoryautomanuals.com)

To get an idea of what you'd be doing, take a gander at your steering box. Look at where the steering intermediate shaft (the shaft coming from the steering wheel) enters the steering box; you'll see there is a big, thin lock nut. Look closer and you'll see there is an internal nut with some small holes in it. What your looking at is the worm preload adjuster; this is the adjustment that will remove the slack in the GM/Saginaw steering box. Once the box is out of the car and securely mounted in a vise, the lock nut is removed (using a brass drift and hammer). The internal adjuster nut is then torqued in snug (using the special spanner or the bent needle noses), a reference matchmark is made across the case and adjuster. Another mark is made CCW and 1/2" back from the first case mark and the adjuster is loosened to line up with that mark. The lock nut is reinstalled. Once that is done, the overcenter preload is adjusted (the screw on top of the box). The overcenter adjustment is based on the resistance created as you rotate the steering shaft stub back and forth through the "straigh ahead" position of the box; resistance is measured using an In-Lb torque wrench attached to the stub. You are looking for a very minor increase in torque as you swing the wrench through the straight ahead position. It is a very minor increase in resistance but you can do this by feel (you don't need the In-Lb torque wrench). These adjustments will take some time and may have to be finessed a bit (as in, don't settle for the first adjustment you make). When you get it right, your Jeep steering will feel like it is brand new.... maybe even better.

[scum1]

well, that fixed it.

anyone trying to fix that problem with similar symptoms whether the box is a reman or used. In my case used. Make sure the adjustments are correct. Following the post above that i copied was exactly what to do.

The big locknut and spanner wrench face preloads the worm gear. THAT is what takes out the "play" in the box..

The adjustment on the top of the box called so many different things it seems, controls the torque it takes to steer the wheel left and right of center. That is what my problem was, and that is how i fixed it. loosened it up a bit, then tighter an 1/8" till sweet. i can see why people say don't adjust too much.

thanks for everyones help on here.

[Captainfab]

Thanks for posting the info you found on the proper way to adjust a steering box and also your follow up with your results.