What part was this shrapnel before it ended up in my transmission pan?

[the_nutt]

First off, hey there. I'm Cody from Austin, Texas. I've had a couple square bodies, but have always wanted a '72 Cheyenne. I have a '72 Yamaha XS650 that I've been wrenching on, and I found a cheap long bed that was mostly there and went for it. Psyched to get started.

Now, the bad: truck made it from Houston to Austin, but started shifting weird about 15 miles from home. At about 1/4-1/2 even throttle it would shift from 2nd to 3rd, then back and forth between 2nd and 3rd once or twice, and finally stay in third.

Got under it and confirmed it has a Turbo 350 transmission (TH350?) by the square pan and 13 pan bolts. Fluid was dark and smelled burnt, and even after adding the fluid that was in the pan/filter to the mix looks like there was barely ~1.5 gallons of ATF drained/accounted for.

The real news is the shrapnel that was in the pan, and that fell out of the transmission once the filter was out of the way (attached below).

Any way of identifying what part this used to be?
Is the transmission shelled, in need of a rebuild?
Any other thoughts? Why is Big Bird so damn big?

Thanks in advance for any help. Really looking forward to getting this thing back on the road, reliable, and cruising!

Cheers,
Cody

[mongocanfly]

Boat anchor..total rebuild or find another one ..my money would be on rebuild then ya know what ya got. Either way be sure to flush out your lines and trans cooler. And if big bird was still that big it wouldn't make any sense to call him little bird and if he was small it wouldnt make any sense to call him big bird...

[Bigdav160]

Is it missing first gear or second? That's a broken roller clutch, ,most likely second gear.

$100 in parts could have it all fixed up.

[67chevemall]

That is one black pan! Mistake # 1 having auto transmissions in your life.

[EARNHARDT#3]

Originally Posted by 67chevemall

That is one black pan! Mistake # 1 having auto transmissions in your life.

Nope. I'd rather throw it in drive and cruise than play with a clutch pedal and shifter. When I was a kid I thought I'd never own an automatic. Now I'm in the process of putting one in my '67.

[Gromit]

Looks like pieces of the low/reverse sprag/roller clutch race. So those barrel shaped bearings are now loose inside the low/reverse assembly.

Definitely looks as if it needs a complete teardown and inspection, but I wouldn't buy the rebuild kit until the inspection is done - just to make sure your aluminum transmission case is still okay and also to make a parts list in case you need something replaced that is not in the rebuild kit (besides the two roller clutches/sprags).

One thing nice about the big hot rod parts places for these TH350's is you can still get a whole rebuilt trans for under $700 + shipping with no core charge

Here's an example

Summit Racing Automatic Transmissions part# SUM-700300 $699.97

That way you can keep the one you have and either part it out or rebuild it just to learn how to do it..

X2 on thoroughly flushing the cooler and lines - also would replace the torque converter for the same reason (to eliminate the chance of metal debris getting into your new rebuilt trans).

Just one slim chance is that those fragments came from a previous failure and the rebuilder didn't flush the cooler or lines or change the torque converter... but probably not given the symptoms you described.

[Fitz]

Originally Posted by 67chevemall

That is one black pan! Mistake # 1 having auto transmissions in your life.

NONONONONONONONONONONONONO! Auto's can be great! They can take all kinds of abuse when built correctly AND there's no third pedal in the cab to get in the way of your left foot! Who could ask for more? The OP just won the opportunity to get one built "correctly" that's all.

[Fitz]

Originally Posted by EARNHARDT#3

Nope. I'd rather throw it in drive and cruise than play with a clutch pedal and shifter. When I was a kid I thought I'd never own an automatic. Now I'm in the process of putting one in my '67.

I'm with you! When I was young and foolish I liked mashing in the clutch, slamming gears, the bell sound made by a set of tube headers and that unmistakable warble made by a four barrel at full throttle running with the air cleaner off.

Now, I just like to crank up the AC and listen to the radio with my left foot resting on a dead pedal.

[leftybass209]

Originally Posted by 67chevemall

That is one black pan! Mistake # 1 having auto transmissions in your life.

Wow, and all these years automatics have been sold, Noone knew they were purchasing crappy transmissions.

All the big manufacturers should defer to you before continuing building transmissions.

Op, now it's time for you to de idea what you really want for a transmission, since nothing less than a complete rebuild would do.

[mongocanfly]

Would be a good time to look into a overdrive auto trans also.

[the_nutt]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

Boat anchor..total rebuild or find another one ..my money would be on rebuild then ya know what ya got. Either way be sure to flush out your lines and trans cooler. And if big bird was still that big it wouldn't make any sense to call him little bird and if he was small it wouldnt make any sense to call him big bird...

Originally Posted by Bigdav160

Is it missing first gear or second? That's a broken roller clutch, ,most likely second gear.

$100 in parts could have it all fixed up.

Originally Posted by 67chevemall

That is one black pan! Mistake # 1 having auto transmissions in your life.

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

Would be a good time to look into a overdrive auto trans also.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Now I have some decisions to make:

My "eventual" plan for this truck was to put an overdrive transmission in it, so I'm just going to do that now instead of rebuilding or buying a new TH350. I want to cruise in this truck, move motorcycles, etc. I'm not building a race truck.

That said, I found this transmission at Monster Transmissions, and with my limited knowledge of transmission inner workings, it seems like what I'm looking for and the three year warranty is reassuring.

Then I talked to the guy that I've been taking mine and my wife's cars to for big stuff for the last year or so, and talked to him about the transmission work as well. He said he would find a 700r4 core, rebuild it, and could figure out the conversion for about $1800.

Talking to his transmission guy in the rebuild shop wasn't confidence inspiring though, because I knew more detailed information about what is required for this conversion than he did. His response for a lot of stuff was "yeah I'll have to look that up and make sure."

I know he works on an infinite amount of transmissions and don't expect him to know everything by memory, but I was under the impression that this is a pretty common swap, especially for a guy that's supposedly been rebuilding transmissions for over a decade.

My guy will also drop in whatever transmission I give him for a few hundred bucks as well; which is worth it to me to not fight it for an entire weekend and saves me from buying tools I'll only (hopefully) use once or twice.

So, what do you think? Should I let the guy here find/rebuild/install a 700r4, or do you have experience with Monster Transmission and think I should pick up that one?

Any suggestions for how my new transmission should be built, regardless of whether I get it locally or from Monster Transmissions, would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers guys.

[Gromit]

Sure you need an overdrive? What is your rear differential gear ratio?

[leftybass209]

Here is the low down on overdrive automatics-

The 200r4, and the 700r4 family (4l60e and 4l80e) are great transmissions, but all of them have benefits and drawbacks to an installation.

The 2004r has a higher 1st gear ratio that makes it more manageable with a wider selection of gear ratio's. The 700r4 has a 3.06 1st gear. It makes it great with 3.42's and 3.73's, but 4.11's and lower really test your ability to control the traction and may be too low for daily use.

You can't expect a transmission shop to know the particulars about a specific installation in your vehicle. You know because you studied it, but if I asked you about the specifics of dropping a Chevy inline 6 mated to a 700r4 into a Studebaker, you may need to look some stuff up to make sure as well, especially when you charge and warranty your work to a stranger.

[the_nutt]

Originally Posted by Gromit

Sure you need an overdrive? What is your rear differential gear ratio?

I want to be able to comfortably go on longer hauls at 70-80mph. The small amount of time I spent on the highway feeling like the engine was pretty wrapped up and barely doing 65 reinforced my notion that I want overdrive.

Can I tell what ratio the diff is from the exterior, or do I need to open it up to find out?

Originally Posted by leftybass209

Here is the low down on overdrive automatics-

The 200r4, and the 700r4 family (4l60e and 4l80e) are great transmissions, but all of them have benefits and drawbacks to an installation.

The 2004r has a higher 1st gear ratio that makes it more manageable with a wider selection of gear ratio's. The 700r4 has a 3.06 1st gear. It makes it great with 3.42's and 3.73's, but 4.11's and lower really test your ability to control the traction and may be too low for daily use.

You can't expect a transmission shop to know the particulars about a specific installation in your vehicle. You know because you studied it, but if I asked you about the specifics of dropping a Chevy inline 6 mated to a 700r4 into a Studebaker, you may need to look some stuff up to make sure as well, especially when you charge and warranty your work to a stranger.

Yeah, I realize now I sounded like a prick up there.. I was underestimating the complexity of even a "common" swap.

I guess what I was getting at is: if you were me and you were going to do an overdrive transmission, would you rather buy the kit online or have a shop do the rebuild? The shop in question isn't a race shop, has always been upfront and doesn't feel scammy. And preference of 700r4 or 2004r?

I'm also going to figure out how to check out my rear diff ratio and post it here too.

[the_nutt]

Rear end is 3.73, and I think I'm going to go with a 700R4. Thanks for the help guys.

[leftybass209]

That's a good combination for some. The only thing I can say, is now that you've narrowed down to a 700r4, do you REALLY want a 700r4 as opposed to a 2004r.

Really study the gearing between the two transmissions. At this point, they cost the same amount, and do the same basic thing. You're in a good position to decide which is really better for your application. The 700r4 is great, but lower geared in first, and the gears are wider than a 2004r. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just different. The 700 requires a driveshaft change, and both require a good throttle valve cable adjustment at the carburetor. Just financial things to consider.

The reason I say that is, I have a 700r4, and just had a bunch of stuff replaced in it. Guy did a great job and spent time discussing which parts he was putting in, and why he was putting those in as opposed to other parts and the advantages and disadvantages to those parts, which was really helpful.

As far as who builds it or who you buy it from, i'd ask that they give me a list of what they were putting in it. If they are to reuse parts, what parts are they reusing and why? A good way to tell if a shop is trying to drive up the price is when they explain they want to use part A because "it's the best" and don't give you a reason why. Let them know you can buy a fully built transmission from store A, what parts it has in it, and what they think about it.

An example of this is, I switched to a 13 vane pump, my 10 vane blew up. The shop stated both work well, but the 13 vane supplies more pressure and the 10 vane supplies more volume at a given time. Based on my shift points and the symptoms I had before we replaced it, he recommended that i'd need more pressure rather than volume in my application.

[the_nutt]

Originally Posted by leftybass209

That's a good combination for some. The only thing I can say, is now that you've narrowed down to a 700r4, do you REALLY want a 700r4 as opposed to a 2004r.

Really study the gearing between the two transmissions. At this point, they cost the same amount, and do the same basic thing. You're in a good position to decide which is really better for your application. The 700r4 is great, but lower geared in first, and the gears are wider than a 2004r. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just different. The 700 requires a driveshaft change, and both require a good throttle valve cable adjustment at the carburetor. Just financial things to consider.

The reason I say that is, I have a 700r4, and just had a bunch of stuff replaced in it. Guy did a great job and spent time discussing which parts he was putting in, and why he was putting those in as opposed to other parts and the advantages and disadvantages to those parts, which was really helpful.

As far as who builds it or who you buy it from, i'd ask that they give me a list of what they were putting in it. If they are to reuse parts, what parts are they reusing and why? A good way to tell if a shop is trying to drive up the price is when they explain they want to use part A because "it's the best" and don't give you a reason why. Let them know you can buy a fully built transmission from store A, what parts it has in it, and what they think about it.

An example of this is, I switched to a 13 vane pump, my 10 vane blew up. The shop stated both work well, but the 13 vane supplies more pressure and the 10 vane supplies more volume at a given time. Based on my shift points and the symptoms I had before we replaced it, he recommended that i'd need more pressure rather than volume in my application.

I'll definitely look into the gear ratios to make sure I know what a 700R4/2004R is going to feel like when installed. My main concern is reliability and longevity though...

From searching and reading on here it seems like 700R4's are more susceptible to issues than 2004R's, but the guy I talked to at Monster Transmission said the input shaft on the 700R4 was twice as big as the 2004R. Doesn't that make the 700R4 "tougher"?

I don't want to race my truck around. I'm not the type to show someone that pulls up next to me at a light 'what's up' or anything, haha. I know there will be issues down the road, but I'm just over-analyzing everything right now and being neurotic about my choices; since I'm installing a rebuilt/overbuilt tranny I'd like there to be quite a while before I have transmission issues again.

So thanks again for putting up with the questions and sharing. Much appreciated.

[54blackhornet]

Don't feel bad about asking questions ! A lot of guys have done this swap without asking and ended up with headache they did not anticipate ! Better to ask then not ! Good luck I will be following!

[hamjet]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004R-200R4-...3D181711575750 Heres the one I bought, I know you take a chance buying something that far away, I don't believe it will handle 400 HP like they say, locally they want double that price plus they want a core charge. so I took a chance, so far so good. I dont beat the crap out of it. after all its just a daily driver truck. Its been in since june, sure beats the 3 speed standard. I'm happy with it...

[the_nutt]

Welp, just got done reading through nine pages of horror stories from customers of Monster Transmissions, so I'm no longer having a tough time deciding between getting one from them vs. having my shop find and rebuild one. Honestly I don't know why I was even considering getting a tranny from someone whose hand I couldn't shake, haha.

So, other than the TV cable/bracketry, lock-up kit, and driveshaft trim... is there anything specific I should ask for when telling the shop how to rebuild a 700R4 for me?

[CaptRMW]

Originally Posted by the_nutt

Welp, just got done reading through nine pages of horror stories from customers of Monster Transmissions, so I'm no longer having a tough time deciding between getting one from them vs. having my shop find and rebuild one. Honestly I don't know why I was even considering getting a tranny from someone whose hand I couldn't shake, haha.

So, other than the TV cable/bracketry, lock-up kit, and driveshaft trim... is there anything specific I should ask for when telling the shop how to rebuild a 700R4 for me?

Glad you saw the light before Monster transmissions took your green. These guys are in Crooksville,Florida oops I mean Brooksville and I made the mistake of buying a 700R4 from them with specific instructions as to the way I wanted it to shift, firmly but not harsh. It would jerk the fillings out of your teeth when it shifted and was shifting way late. I just live 35 miles away from their shop so back it went only to get games played by Josh and and other members of the BS team. Pissed consumer has the goods on them but we would like to believe they are being honest when they talk such a good story. Phoenix transmissions in Weatherford, Texas will be your best bet for a job done right. Good luck, Capt. Roger

[9teen69]

Howdy neighbor,
When you need your driveshaft cut and balanced I've used Scottys driveshaft on Airport Rd on two different trucks. Honest and affordable.

[the_nutt]

Originally Posted by CaptRMW

Glad you saw the light before Monster transmissions took your green. These guys are in Crooksville,Florida oops I mean Brooksville and I made the mistake of buying a 700R4 from them with specific instructions as to the way I wanted it to shift, firmly but not harsh. It would jerk the fillings out of your teeth when it shifted and was shifting way late. I just live 35 miles away from their shop so back it went only to get games played by Josh and and other members of the BS team. Pissed consumer has the goods on them but we would like to believe they are being honest when they talk such a good story. Phoenix transmissions in Weatherford, Texas will be your best bet for a job done right. Good luck, Capt. Roger

Yeah, I'm glad I've been over-obsessing and took the time to do an advanced search here for "Monster Transmission" before it was too late.

Thanks for the shop tip as well, but Dallas is a little more of a hike than I want to take right now. My guy Danny at Drake Transmission has always been really good to me and I trust him. On top of that, the shop is literally on the other side of the block behind my house. I could push my truck there if I needed to. I was silly for considering taking it anywhere else, really.

Originally Posted by 9teen69

Howdy neighbor,
When you need your driveshaft cut and balanced I've used Scottys driveshaft on Airport Rd on two different trucks. Honest and affordable.

Good looking out! Any idea on a ballpark fee for cut + balance or just balancing my driveshaft? I've been able to price out everything for the swap besides this so far.

I have a [professional] machinist/welder friend that can cut/weld it for me if need be.

[9teen69]

I can't remember, it was 7 yrs ago Give them a call (512) 385-9767