1 finger steering

[mike16]

Originally Posted by leftybass209

More often than not I appreciate your wisdom and agree with you Special-K, but just rolling over and being happy with over-assisted steering because it's the way it always was, is contrary to the very reason hot rodding was created. I think manipulating a vehicle to reflect your taste and preference is exactly what makes this hobby appealing to people. I love a beautiful restoration. These trucks were created at a time when freeways were new, and speeds didn't much break 60mph, hence the speed warning system on these trucks as well as others. Modern vehicles have made these classics nearly dangerous to drive with drum brakes and twitchy over assisted steering at speed. It's also become dangerous to drive slower and within the means of these trucks completely stock, because of modern driving practices. Your quote of Ben Franklin while vague, can be interpreted MANY different ways. One may say destroying the ground and air to create gasoline powered vehicles in order to manipulate larger distance driving is considered unreasonable. This post is light-hearted and in good spirits mind you, just a different take on your thoughts.

Keith, these trucks indeed were over-assisted from the factory! Heck, you worked there who am I to tell you! Yes, though other than worn components the power steering over-assisted feel is completely normal for these trucks.

total bull chit. How do modern vehicles make these trucks dangerous to drive. ditto drum brakes. and over assisted is over assisted and that is not normal. My parents bought several new GM vehicles in the 70's and they all steered like this. normal safe and not over assisted. If there is something wrong with the truck then dont blame the way it came off the line 40 years ago. How do you tie in envirionmental devistation with over assisted power steering? kinda creepy dude.And your explaination that the hot rod industry foundation is based on people doing what they want contradicts they very reason why one persone prefers over assisted steering and another does not. clearly you have not thought your statement though. Nor have you ever driven a ford product of the same era.

My 72 c10 drives exactly like our 76 malibue wagon did back when it was new. nothing wrong and quite normal then and now. fix whats wrong dont look for demonds to spar with.

[mike16]

Originally Posted by special-K

You just need to get your front end right. There isn't and never was anything wrong with the power steering in these trucks. People drove them daily when they came out all the way up to today. People are just used to modern thing and want to adapt these trucks rather than adapt themselves to the truck. There is no reason one of these trucks, left the way they were built, can't be a daily driver. In fact, that's what drew me to them and why I have stayed with them. I actually love the earlier-60s, '50s, and back vehicles most. But, I always figured these trucks have a classic vibe, still all metal, simple to work on...all the advantages of the older vehicles...yet can be driven on down the road along with everyone else to go make a living.

Ben Franklin said something to the effect (not an exact quote): "A reasonable man adapts himself to his surroundings. An unreasonable man attempts to adapt his surroundings to himself". Still holds true

Correct on all counts! and not only did Franklin state that but Darwin stated that the speices that adapts quickest is more likely to survive. Power steerin was not a new thing in 1972. been around alot longer on cars and even longer in trucks. I keep hearin the same noise about power brakes and disc brakes too. total nonsence. of course all were improvements over existing technology but but there was nothing wrong with existing technology. these were options which suggest that existing technology was entirely adequate. drum brakes and disk brakes co existed for years befor drums were phased out.... oh my bad. you can still buy a car today with drum brakes on it. ditto PS, radial tires, anti lock brakes, airbags and the list goes on and on. not only that but structurly speaking they were safer back then.

you cant tell me that with all the chemicals and plastics that go into a new vehicle today. the envirionment is better off than when vehicle were made of one material ..Solid detroit steel.

Special K is right! fix whats wrong before you start putzing around trying to improve what may be a normal situation. fingertip steering is normal, wandering all over the road is not. Maybe drive with both hands on the wheel instead of one fingertip. I dont know. sometimes the problem is between the ears.

[leftybass209]

Originally Posted by mike16

How do modern vehicles make these trucks dangerous to drive. ditto drum brakes.

This one is really simple. Advancements in technology have afforded new vehicles with disc brakes, decreasing the stopping distance and mitigating brake fade. Reaction times must be increased and following distances need to be adjusted for accordingly, except, that doesn't stop people from merging in front of the large gap you've created in front of you. If drum brakes were safer, why create disc brakes? The power steering is simply, more powerful and offers less road feel than modern power steering systems. A slight turn of the wheel at higher speeds can jerk the truck abruptly into the next lane. I'm not and have never said you can't get used to it, my stance was that you can change it to feel more modern if one desires.

Originally Posted by mike16

If there is something wrong with the truck then dont blame the way it came off the line 40 years ago..

Point out one specific instance that I said, "GM or Saginaw, it's your fault these trucks have an over-assisted power steering feel, and that's NOT the way you intended it to be from the factory.

Originally Posted by mike16

How do you tie in envirionmental devistation with over assisted power steering? .

I didn't tie it in to power steering, you completely read it out of context, which makes me wonder if you even read the post or if you were looking to pick a fight, what with your witty use of the word "chit" and inferring something I said was "creepy" which is weird in and of itself in this context. The comment I made about creating gasoline and its byproduct that pollutes the air was in direct relation to the quote of Ben Franklin.

Originally Posted by mike16

And your explaination that the hot rod industry foundation is based on people doing what they want contradicts they very reason why one persone prefers over assisted steering and another does not...

What I said was in direct relation to this phrase, "People are just used to modern thing and want to adapt these trucks rather than adapt themselves to the truck"(Special-K). My comment about the hot rod industry pertains to this phrase, in which you can modify the steering in any way you choose and don't have to be happy with it just because that's the way the factory intended it to be.

Originally Posted by mike16

clearly you have not thought your statement though. Nor have you ever driven a ford product of the same era..

I don't see how your assumptions of me driving any other brand vehicle have any bearing on Saginaw power steering, which was also used on FMC, Mopar, and I'm sure other brands as well. Those respective manufacturers' Saginaw PS systems were all really similar in the pressures they put out as well.

I'm sorry you were roped into this Special-K.

Mike16, if you have any other inappropriate comments you need to make, feel free to send them to my inbox.

[67 chevelle]

Originally Posted by leftybass209

More often than not I appreciate your wisdom and agree with you Special-K, but just rolling over and being happy with over-assisted steering because it's the way it always was, is contrary to the very reason hot rodding was created. I think manipulating a vehicle to reflect your taste and preference is exactly what makes this hobby appealing to people. I love a beautiful restoration. These trucks were created at a time when freeways were new, and speeds didn't much break 60mph, hence the speed warning system on these trucks as well as others. Modern vehicles have made these classics nearly dangerous to drive with drum brakes and twitchy over assisted steering at speed. It's also become dangerous to drive slower and within the means of these trucks completely stock, because of modern driving practices. Your quote of Ben Franklin while vague, can be interpreted MANY different ways. One may say destroying the ground and air to create gasoline powered vehicles in order to manipulate larger distance driving is considered unreasonable. This post is light-hearted and in good spirits mind you, just a different take on your thoughts.

Keith, these trucks indeed were over-assisted from the factory! Heck, you worked there who am I to tell you! Yes, though other than worn components the power steering over-assisted feel is completely normal for these trucks.

SO TRUE ,, My nieces husband has a 69 c10 with Manuel everything , and drums ,, he asked me the easiest way to make it a daily driver on the highway in Atlanta ,, I told him to find a newer 80s or 90s truck and graft his body to it ,, that would be easiest ,, honestly .. the newer vehicles with newer suspension , tires , brakes , fuel injection ,overdrive transmissions ,exc ,,are so far and above what was standard 50 years ago ,, a stock 2015 nisan ultama is faster and would blow away a stock 1969 z28 on the road coarse ,, and the z was considered a race car at the time,,with leaf springs

[swamp rat]

I really dig good informational threads, this one especially because everything on my truck is new but its still a little wandering side and i need to figure it out. I hate to see the differences of opinion flair up in to the arguments they have here, differences of opinion are normal and a part of life but it can be voiced in a civilized manor, all it takes is one spark to start a fire. Not saying everyone was out of line... just hate seeing a good thread tarnished.

[mike16]

Originally Posted by leftybass209

This one is really simple. Advancements in technology have afforded new vehicles with disc brakes, decreasing the stopping distance and mitigating brake fade. Reaction times must be increased and following distances need to be adjusted for accordingly, except, that doesn't stop people from merging in front of the large gap you've created in front of you. If drum brakes were safer, why create disc brakes? The power steering is simply, more powerful and offers less road feel than modern power steering systems. A slight turn of the wheel at higher speeds can jerk the truck abruptly into the next lane. I'm not and have never said you can't get used to it, my stance was that you can change it to feel more modern if one desires.

yea? but how exactly does a new vehicle make a truck 43 years old unsafe? I dont see the connection. and exacty which vehicle by vertue of its existance abritrarily makes a 72 chevy unsafe? and how exactly does it impose such a will apon a 72 chevy truck? is this a Christine thing we got going on here? and by vertue of this aura makes the vehicles with standard fetures unsafe? and your arguement as to why create disc brakes if drum brakes were safe enough. disc brakes were safer better and cheaper. and easier to service and maintain but look at it this way if a 6 cylinder 3 on th column pontiac tempest was enough car why build the GTO. why put a big block in anything. or build the corvette. dont suppose it was to give the customers choices kinda like your hot rod arguement? standard fetures dont make vehicles unsafe.

[B]slightly turning the wheel at higher speeds jerking the truck into other lanes is is the fault of a driver. I dont know of any vehickle that whenthe wheel is slightly turned does such things, not as designed by engineers

[B]and "more modern if one desires" kind goes back to you choices arguement. the 72 chevy truck probably felt more modern in 72 nostagic now but modern then so who's to say and modern to one person is different than modern is to another. those damn pesky hot rodders and thier choices again winning your arguement one time but loosing it as well the next .


You addressed the issue as though it was a fault

I didn't tie it in to power steering, you completely read it out of context, which makes me wonder if you even read the post or if you were looking to pick a fight, what with your witty use of the word "chit" and inferring something I said was "creepy" which is weird in and of itself in this context. The comment I made about creating gasoline and its byproduct that pollutes the air was in direct relation to the quote of Ben Franklin.

did I read it out of context or did I not read it at all? you deside. Not much to fight over. just simply pinting out the flaws and contradictions in your statements.

It was not witty use of the word chit but an attempt to accuratly describe what I was reading and avoid violating some of the rules.creepy is as creepy does.

It was not my refrence to Franklin but someone elses. I mearly agreed with them and pointed out something Darwin said in a simular vain. not about the envirionment in that comment but about adapting to servive.

What I said was in direct relation to this phrase, "People are just used to modern thing and want to adapt these trucks rather than adapt themselves to the truck"(Special-K). My comment about the hot rod industry pertains to this phrase, in which you can modify the steering in any way you choose and don't have to be happy with it just because that's the way the factory intended it to be.

yea but you implied it was a fault. others disagree with you. and now you take it all personal and attack people rather than discuse points.

and the effortless one finger steering issue was described as a fault that needed to be corrected. modifying it is an option certainly but correcting something presumed to be a fault is something different. I think the point several people stated was that the effortless one finger steering was normal and the wandering was not. best to fix the problem befor modifying steering effort to correct the problem. and again its a choice which to do first and a choice how much to change stering effort. I simply disagree that the one finger steering condition was a fault. wandering yes steering no.


I don't see how your assumptions of me driving any other brand vehicle have any bearing on Saginaw power steering, which was also used on FMC, Mopar, and I'm sure other brands as well. Those respective manufacturers' Saginaw PS systems were all really similar in the pressures they put out as well.

I drove a 69 ford full size wagon and there was no road feeling at all. car magazines of that era also stated that observation. My assuption, while tongue in cheek stated that you have NOT driven ford vehicles. if you had you would recll that they required even less effort that gm vehicles did. Idrove that wagon for 3 weeks back in the early 70's and 43 years later I still remeber how there was vertualy no effort required to steer it. And that to ford engineers was normal. Again a choice. made by ford engineers just like your hot rodders mades choices, thier choice but a choice none the less.

I'm sorry you were roped into this Special-K.

Mike16, if you have any other inappropriate comments you need to make, feel free to send them to my inbox.

how are my comments inappropriate? and who are you to dictate to me what I may share with others. Kinda like that hot rod choice thing. all of the sudden you deside I dont have a choice. or you presume to dictate and limit my choices. perhaps your not comfortable having it pointed out to you how convoluted the logic is in associating so many unrelated things/issues with one finger steering and wandering all over the road.

the origonal poster has two issues, one finger effort in steering and his truck wanders . some of us exersize a choice; they believe and state that one finger effort to steer the vehicle is normal. others believe and state that wandering is not. we have choices and you have choices. your choice is to disagree with our opinion. Our choice is to agree that you logic is convoluyed and not related to the topic

I'm bowing out of this at this point. Thats what I believe I will do and thats my choice to exersize. you go ahead and play the blame game.

try and seek out some source of happiness in your life

[special-K]

Originally Posted by leftybass209

More often than not I appreciate your wisdom and agree with you Special-K, but just rolling over and being happy with over-assisted steering because it's the way it always was, is contrary to the very reason hot rodding was created. I think manipulating a vehicle to reflect your taste and preference is exactly what makes this hobby appealing to people. I love a beautiful restoration. These trucks were created at a time when freeways were new, and speeds didn't much break 60mph, hence the speed warning system on these trucks as well as others. Modern vehicles have made these classics nearly dangerous to drive with drum brakes and twitchy over assisted steering at speed. It's also become dangerous to drive slower and within the means of these trucks completely stock, because of modern driving practices. Your quote of Ben Franklin while vague, can be interpreted MANY different ways. One may say destroying the ground and air to create gasoline powered vehicles in order to manipulate larger distance driving is considered unreasonable. This post is light-hearted and in good spirits mind you, just a different take on your thoughts.

Keith, these trucks indeed were over-assisted from the factory! Heck, you worked there who am I to tell you! Yes, though other than worn components the power steering over-assisted feel is completely normal for these trucks.

Let me correct you. Interstate hiways were all across the nation in 67-72. They were being built since after WWII and became official in '55. The speed limit was 70 most everywhere. It was slowed, nationally, to 55 mph just after these trucks in '73 and was only lifted in the mid-90s. Here in Maryland the speed limit is 5 mph slower now then it was when these trucks were built. These trucks are safe as ever with no design flaws. In fact, they were ambulances and fire trucks. People have just been dumbed-down by the marketing of convenience and technology. It's a speed limit, not a speed requirement. The requirement is and always will be watch the road ahead and change lanes when the vehicle ahead is moving slower. Another requirement is use flashers at under 40 mph...not 80. Not that I haven't driven from Maryland 400 miles down I-95 to Dillon,SC at 75-80mph in a '71 C/20. People could use some slowing down and taking more time to think. And I love driving my vehicles as much as anyone else. But if we used more forethought before becoming totally dependent on personal transportation it would have been a wise thing. The fact is, we have no choice but to rely on personal transportation right now. It is a major factor in our lives. So, might as well put some pride into the second largest investment in our lives. There was absolutely no foresight used until we came to realize we were creating smog that creates health issues for humans. What Ben Franklin said holds true then and now no matter how you interpret it. Fracturing the earth disrupting our aquifers is not a reasonable thing and neither is dumping benzine into our drinking water. I don't know what we are supposed to do now, but we didn't get ourselves into a very wise situation. Not to mention the tyrants we created in nations sitting on top of the oil we need and all the problems that stem from that.

These trucks...and all other vehicles with P/S made back then...were not made with over assisted steering at all. It's just that changes were made that people got used to, just like everything else about anything older. Most use the latest greatest and when turning back, what was is hard to get used to. Just because something new and improved comes out it doesn't render what came before as useless. It's just another choice. I'm not a consumerist fool. I buy products I need when I need them, not because new and improved came out. I guess that's where my perspective comes from. I'm not on the band wagon, I follow my own path. I know what is good for me, while taking others into account, and put plenty of thought into what I do. This all is merely a simple matter of no matter what you drive you need to get used to it. Every new vehicle doesn't drive the same, not every vehicle is new, the same size, same power, same visibility, etc. The reasonable thing to do is be aware of your actions and act according to the task at hand. I don't see new vehicles making the roads any safer. I see them allowing people to become worse drivers who are expect to be protected. The fact is there are as many wrecks now as there were years ago. With better brakes people are coming to a stop harder, braking later. It doesn't even look like they're going to stop for you when they have the stop sign. And, people still overshoot stop signs and lights. I'd wager more now than ever before. Don't tell me you haven't noticed what idiots so many drive like. I've been around long enough to notice a distinct degeneration in the way people drive. It's a combination of things, yet all in one way or another due to attempting to change the car to make safer drivers as well as the general "Make a bigger safety net rather than safer people" mentality... lack of self adaptation.


Hot rodding began with taking vehicles built when most roads were dirt and making them go faster on a race track. Then it came to the new and improved street (once the limited access hiway concept had begun to be implemented. These trucks weren't built for a hobby. It's only a hobby for the newbies. There are many of us who didn't fall into the keep buying new thing and have minds of our own. I bought a next to new '72 out of high school in '73, liked it so much and never saw a need for anything newer I stayed with them. I like even older trucks but needed something hiway worthy for work. We are the ones who kept driving these trucks for others to see and want decades later. It's a lifestyle and a transportation choice for me and many others, not a hobby.

I don't "roll over" for anything. Never have.

[FirstOwner69]

Thanks special-K!!

[Smith & Sons]

After installing all new parts,alignment,shimming the pressure valve in the pump,installing a steering stabalizer&sway bars,it was still twitchy.What helped was installing Rancho 9 way adjustable REAR shocks,turning them up to 7.Adding weight to the rear helps too.I figured this out after building a lowered C20.The heavy rear axil really helps to anchor the rear & that translates to great steering feel that is not twitchy at all.

[Ed F]

WOW has this tread taken a turn!! There is that thread about how old you were when your truck was built. That is what we are dealing with here on opinions of our trucks drive ability and safety. I was 17 when I bought my first brand new vehicle. A 1970 Chevy C20. I am glad we have a bunch of younger people interested in these trucks and saving them for future generations. Those of us that realize we have fewer years ahead of us than behind us have a totally different perspective than the younger drivers. We grew up in an era where the options list consisted of, Radio, Heater and Whitewall tires. As the automotive industry developed so did our highway system. In fact we had much better roads in the '60's and '70's than we have today. With posted interstate speeds of 70 mph and western states posted as "Reasonable And Proper". If you are looking for the best drive ability and safety available in a pickup then perhaps you should be driving a new Silverado with 6.2, 6speed auto, ac, ps, pb, airbags, traction control, abs, stability control etc etc etc. We all love our old trucks for different reasons and each of us has a different opinion of what we expect from them. To think that they were unsafe, or undriveable demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the evolution of the auto industry. That 1970 C-20 rolled along just fine at 70 mph with a slide in camper on it and a boat behind it. Is my 2013 GMC K1500 safer, easier to drive, And more comfortable? Absolutely. Do I want my 1970 & 1972 C10's to drive and ride like my 2013? Absolutely not! But that is my opinion. So back to the question about power steering. My first vehicle with power steering was a '74 C-10. It was a very light touch compared to my previous experience with manual steering and I felt like I couldn't feel the road as well. Baloney! It's all relative compared to our previous experiences. If your front end parts are all in good condition and aligned properly to the specs for that vehicle, not today's specs, then one finger steering is just fine and you will adapt your driving ability to it.

[Andy4639]

You can buy several of these valves are go to a junk yard and get them from different year models and see which one feels the best to you. Some may are may not interchange though. I have no idea which ones will are not. The only one I know for sure is the ones in my earlier post.

[68c10airstream]

Steering assist is dictated by an item inside the gearbox called a "spool valve" It's diameter is proportional to road feel (steering input effort). From my schooling in the 70's I don't remember which way it is, bigger diameter = firmer, etc, but this spool valve is the key. If you took a montecarlo gearbox spool out and compared it to an "ss" montecarlo there was a huge difference. The shimming of the pump works especially for mustang II's.

I sourced a variable ratio (3 1/2) turns lock to lock from a stock 85 c10, used the 85 lines and valve from the rear of the pump because it's o'ring style.

This variable ratio box is my favorite because it's slower to respond in the center position, and then when going past 1/4 turn it speeds up. This was designed because of twitchy overreacting corvette quick boxes at very high speeds in the 60's.

Variable ratio is stated on the glovebox lid in the later 70's into the 80's. If a person autocrossed then a 2 1/2 turn box would be great in my eyes.

The spool valve controls the dumping of excessive pressure so what remains is being used by the box when needed. Not touching the wheel equals most of the pressure dumped to the pump. When you turn the wheel the torsion bar inside the spool flexes, opens or closes ports as needed. The input of this valve is splined to the rag joint. The output directly connects to the worm and sector shaft. Hope this helps

[mike16]

i think you got two problems, one im not so sure is a problem, the finger effort to steer the truck was kinda typical of these years trucks, Ive had several and many have had the power steering option , others I converted over, Ihave driven several gm products from that era and they all steered with vertually no effort, So thats typical and takes getting used to if your used to front wheel drive, disc brakes, rack and pinion power steering. I love my camry but I love my truck.

the wondering issue is some thing else all to gether, get that sorted out befor you try to modify steering effort issues. Dont go cheap on front end parts or you'll be chasing your tail for ever. Do it all at once and do it right and buy the best, not the most expensive.

[DTMsurf]

Mine has a smaller steering wheel and I can't tell you what it felt like with the stock one cause I bought it this way but it still feels over assisted. The upside is my wife loves it compared to the 65 F100 I sold that had no power steering. I'm going to lower and stiffen the suspension (already did new basic shocks) and hopefully that will tighten it up a bit.

[CastIron]

If the suspension is in decent shape, one way to increase steering effort and increase high speed stability it to add more caster.

My truck has +1.5 degrees of caster. I could increase it, but it's pretty stable on the highway.

[Ruscal]

My short bed C10 is lowered, has good shocks, swaybars, and tires, and still feels a little darty right off center when at 75mph+. The steering ratio is slow and over assisted. My truck has plenty of caster due to Hotchkis control arms and steering. It takes too much steering wheel input to initiate small corrections. At the same time the truck has amazing cornering abilities and traction. It holds some unbelievable cornering forces, and instills confidence. What I would like to improve is speeding up the steering input without increasing the darty tendencies. Would a variable ratio box be the answer, or maybe one of the rack and pinion offerings from No Limit, Porterbuilt, or others? Anyone have experience with the rack and pinions?
Russ

[RichardJ]

>> I can literally steer this truck with 1 finger and it's somewhat hard keep straight going down the highway. <<

So in other words, 1 finger when it's going straight and ten fingers with a tight grip when it doesn't want to.

Much or all of the front end is worn. I would suggest you stop looking at Band-Aids and have an alignment shop take a look at it.

[Wrenchbender Ret]

That tortion bar that Airstream mentioned has been known to break & cause a real sensitive steering.

[davepl]

FWIW every part in my restoration is brand new or, like the steering box, reman. Nothing left used.

It still steers with one finger, about 20 turns lock to lock, of course, as that doesn't change. But even when the parts were new, these trucks were not an M3. They don't have the tightest steering even when everything is brand new.

My point, I guess, is that you can't "fix" everything because loose doesn't mean broken, at least to a certain extent.

Alignment also plays a huge role. If you don't have enough caster, it'll dart lanes. If the alignment is off, it'll follow ruts and ridges and steer itself. So once you know the parts are all in good order and the alignment is right, it steers like a 45 year old new design!

[sboris]

My thoughts exactly Davepl.
And I LOVE my one finger steering..
Old school

[davepl]

I could consider a smaller steering wheel though, if I drove it more. A smaller 14" blue cushion grip wheel with a GMC horn button from a Sprint might fit and would make it less like driving a bus! But I like being stock...

[frankslagoon]

I just put power on my 63. gear is a 82 c 10 and pump is a 75 c 10. It's a little light for me. The pump had 2 shims in the reg. I added 2 more. seems a little stiffer, not much, and I don't have that squealing hard over anymore. From what I read the shims make about 100 psi per shim difference. If ya google around there are some great articles on mod. pressure valves. Thanks for the shim idea Lefty.