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03-09-2017, 10:29 PM | #1 |
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1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
hi,
I am putting a Mustang II front end on a 1954 C3100. There appears to be an clearance issue with the T bolts and how much movement the top arm has with the top shock mount with the parallel slots. The T bolt hole in the upper arm only allows the top ball joint to move towards the front on the Pass Side and towards the back on the drivers side. As you can see by the pic's the tbolt hole in the upper arm aligns itself with the slots moving the ball joint toward the front of the truck but when you try to push it to the back, those tbolt holes do not align with the slots anymore so you get very little if any caster adjustment in that direction as shown in the pics with the bolts on. Everyone including the guy I bought these from says thousands are sold this way... so what am I missing.. Thanks for the help.. |
03-09-2017, 11:10 PM | #2 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
I am a bit concerned with mine too. Everything measures out fine but still look weird to the naked eye. I have heard that the upper needs to go back an inch rather than where they all say they should go. Guess when I get it together and take it to be aligned I will find out. May have to do some modifications at that point. Guess the slots could be welded up and modified as necessary.
May have to modify yours to solve the castor issue Last edited by Jemezcrusher; 03-09-2017 at 11:13 PM. Reason: Spelling |
03-10-2017, 12:36 AM | #3 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
I don't understand why you would need to move it so far,that is a MILE of caster, many degrees. So why is it mounted to the frame in such a way where the caster would be so little that you would need to move it that far? It should be mounted to the frame closer to where the desired caster is, that way it doesn't take that much movement.
Brian
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1948 Chevy pickup Chopped, Sectioned, 1953 Corvette 235 powered. Once was even 401 Buick mid engined with the carburetor right between the seats! Bought with paper route money in 1973 when I was 15. "Fan of most anything that moves human beings" |
03-10-2017, 01:50 AM | #4 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
I've got to go with Martinsr on this. I couldn't understand why you had a caster issue when I saw the lead to the thread and when I opened it there is no caster issue,
This isn't a Ford transverse spring I beam front end that runs around 5 to 7 degrees of caster to track right.. A starting point of 2 to 2.5 degrees (actually you may not need that much) + caster with 1/2 degree + camber in the left wheel and 1/4 degree + camber in the right wheel and 1/8 toe in should be a good starting point for a truck that will track right running down the freeway at 70 MPH without an issue. Note if you live in a country where you drive on the other side of the road the camber settings are reversed. The difference in camber between front wheels compensates for the crown "camber" of the road so the truck or anything else will drive straight down the road in the outside lane or the one next to it and you should be able to go hands off for a serious distance if it is set right. You just don't ed a load of caster to have these rigs drive great with an MII front end under them. |
03-10-2017, 10:09 AM | #5 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
I've been looking to an IFS for my 54 also.
In all my research, the upper hat is welded slightly rearward of the centerline. This sets your caster angle. Moving the A arm in and out sets your camber. Rotating the A arm as such, can fine tune the caster and camber. By the looks of it, yours is fine. Is there a problem with the T bolts not holding? |
03-10-2017, 10:37 AM | #6 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
I had the same problem when I upgraded to power steering my truck would dart all over the road. I took it in for an alignment at a local shop that has years of experience with hot rods. I was told they like to see 4 to 5 degrees of caster with power steering. With the Mustang II suspensions where the upper mount is welded to the side of the frame the control arm will hit before you get that much, not all Mustang II kits are designed that way. I found 2 options for fixing this problem:
Option 1 - I ordered 5/8" narrow upper control arms from JW Rod Garage. They don't list them on their website, I called and talked with Daryl the owner who was really helpful. I now have 4 degrees of caster and the truck drivers great. http://www.jwrodgarage.com/ Option 2 - Adjustable upper arms, made by SPC performance. I think these would work well also https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sps-94800/overview/ |
03-10-2017, 10:56 AM | #7 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
it seems like there is ample room in the slotted area of the upper mount. maybe, like my 57 truck, you have miss matched parts from the supplier?
this is why, after it is already too late for me, I always advise guys to use the cross member that has the upper and lower control arm mounts already welded to the member at the manufacturer. that way the geometry is already engineered in before you get it and it is a matter of tacking it in at the rake angle you want and then assemble loosely to check. maybe slide over to the heidt'ssite and check out their blurb "understanding independent front suspension" for some insight of how it should all look in relation to all the parts. it is somewhere in their catalogue. if you can't find it just call them and they will email it to you. they are really good that way. it is a great article with insights into bump steer etc if the parts are assembled out of geometry. good luck. I know my TCI front end (I am pretty sure I was shipped the wrong crossmember) was a real bear to figure out. I borrowed a caster/camber alignment tool to check mine during/after assembly. like the one on longacre racing's website. $140 bucks to purchase. |
03-10-2017, 11:02 AM | #8 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
just as a side note, I had to modify my upper mount to get the geometry correct. lower control arm parallel to ground at ride height, upper control arm slightly angled down at the frame end-like 4 degrees? upper mount angled slightly down at the rear for antidive geometry (think, this is from memory). inner tie rods pivot point is inline with imaginary line drawn between upper and lower control arm pivot points when wheels are straight ahead (anti bumpsteer).
anybody else? am I wrong here? |
03-10-2017, 11:07 AM | #9 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
hey whitedog, check out this unit from scott's hotrods. there are others like it as well. one piece crossmember with upper mounts already in place. they have bolt in units as well. upper arms are also adjustable for caster.
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03-10-2017, 11:08 AM | #10 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
sorry, pic cleared itself somehow.
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03-10-2017, 11:33 AM | #11 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
I do dig the Scott's IFS. I actually have something else brewing in my head for my build.
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03-10-2017, 01:49 PM | #12 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
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03-10-2017, 04:48 PM | #13 | |||
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
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I've used Heidt's, TCI, Fatman, Speedway and Scotts. Here's a few pic on what I'm talking about. Pic 1 and 2 showing location of top hat and top of frame. Pic 3 is on my 50 pickup, you can see how close the upper arm is toward the frame, and very little diference in crossshaft on setting the caster. I run 4* on mine. Pic 4 is the new TCI and Fatman design to use shims and no slots. This is a great ideal.
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03-10-2017, 05:00 PM | #14 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
Akeane01, in Pic 1 and 2 are of a 38 Chevy coupe currently in our shop, they had installed an original Mustant II crossmember about 15 years ago. You can see that they had to notch the frame to get the upper A arm to clear the frame.
This top hat was welded level with the frame. Top hat had much smaller amount of slot to adjust the caster an camer. They had no issues with how this set-up drove down the road. They did have us put on tubular uppper and lower control arms, and it will have coil/over shocks. If you could give us more info on where you got your set-up, I'm sure we can get you headed in the right direction. There are great resources on here...Jim
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03-10-2017, 06:15 PM | #15 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
To All,,
thanks for the replies... Design: The Top hat is welded to the side of the frame on this design because I wanted to keep the stock ride height.. I found someone who did that because it seemed like everyone else dropped the height 4-6". Top Mount: I saw a couple of you say the top mount should be mounted a little to the back so the top ball joint would have positive caster. I saw there were a few giving caster degrees and assume this was positive caster?? I have the top and lower ball joint in line with the center of the subframe.. Maybe that is wrong. Caster issue: a few said there was no issue but I my mind I would have thought I could twist the top arm to the front or to the back about the same amount. I cannot do that. It only goes one way. Now if I use round bolts instead of Tbolts, I could get more movement. Tbolts: are these used just to prevent the bolt from turning? why are these used and why do you need those bolts that fit into the custom hole in the upper arm.. I will research more on your thoughts.. thanks for the help |
03-10-2017, 10:28 PM | #16 | ||
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
I'm the one akeane01 got his idea from. I made a recommendation and he is using the same kit. He has modified his a little bit, but I'm not sure how or if that effects this installation. akeane01 has also contacted me on this.
Never having installed an aftermarket suspension, I had someone who does restorations & projects install mine for me & help me with other bits (I'm too old & aching to do all of this myself, anymore). So, without having done the "real" work, I'm not sure where I can advise him. My installer didn't have any serious problems, so I really didn't pay a huge amount of attention. I had one issue the day it was finished & got it's first alignment....the alignment shop set the caster (incorrectly) at zero/neutral & I had a 55mph vibration. To solve that, I went to another shop and - mr48chev says it best.... Quote:
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Nice to see everyone chime in. I know the OP appreciates all your help/advice.
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03-11-2017, 12:21 AM | #17 | |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
Quote:
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my build thread: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=459839 Jimbo's long bed step build:http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...t=464626<br /> |
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03-11-2017, 01:02 AM | #18 | |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
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03-11-2017, 08:33 AM | #19 | |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
Quote:
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Pics of Finished 49 AD: https://www.flickr.com/photos/103194...7686536275403/ Pics of build process: https://www.flickr.com/photos/103194...57684031425944 Last edited by Hampshire; 03-11-2017 at 08:47 AM. |
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03-19-2017, 03:28 PM | #20 |
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Re: 1954 Truck, Mustang II, Caster Issue
Gents,
here is what I think needs to happen. Another guy at work had the same issue with another front end design. We modified the Tbolts so the interface with the Top mount is a round bolt while keeping the traditional top mount hole in the mid section of the bolt to keep them from twisting.. I have movement in both directions now. I still think its an issue on mine and some other designs.. |
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