No Electrical power battteries 100%???

[hatzie]

The glow plug contactor isn't exactly the same as a starter relay. As you mentioned... starter contactors generally ground through the body of the contactor. The big round GM glow plug contactor on the early 6.2 & 350 Olds diesels were isolated from the vehicle and had both low current power and ground connections...
The original wiring to the big glow plug contactor switched the ground. If you intend to use this contactor in manual mode I'd put a starter push button on the knee bar of the dash and switch the ground to the GM glow contactor. AutoZone has the big rubber top tractor starter buttons for some reason.
My 1967 IH Farmall 656 uses a push button to run the glow plugs and it works quite well with modern self-limiting PTC (Positive Temperature Coefficient) glow plugs similar in function to the AC60G. 51 years old and she starts just fine at -30°F.

Are you sure you want to have manual glow plugs on a truck your teen or young twenties daughter is driving? Obviously depends on the girl but I wouldn't let my nieces or even my nephews drive with manual glow plugs. Attention span of youngsters and all.

Diarc posted copies of some of my manual scans... You can get them here as well along with quite a few of the GM Service Training Group textbooks. Look in my signature.

That's a very good explanation of what's happening with a snubber... No question about what's happening when you can visualize the effect on a scope.

I neglected to add that you need to reverse bias snubber diodes. Otherwise it's just a dead short in the circuit.
Reverse biasing a diode means that you hook the Cathode end to positive and the Anode to ground.
The Cathode end of a regular diode is the end with a stripe.

[Tarm]

Thanks Hatzie ....once again.

No I have no present intention to switch it to a manual only GP system. I only was looking at the manual schematics as it was part of what I found when searching these issues and the GP system. If it was for my sole use I would likely get rid of the ENTIRE keyed ignition switch. The column would be there for the steering wheel and gear selector. Honestly if I installed buckets instead of the bench I would have the gear selector on housed off the floor next to the trans case shifter. I would be much happier with flip toggle and momentary switches possibly with some LEDs .

My issue/question was solely a seemingly missing ground terminal off the GP relay body.


Not sure if the relay was the issue or not. It may still be a short in the fuse panel as I still need to address the main (red)power lead that has a loose connection. It maybe related to that. But the GP system now worked at least tonight. Started up and GP functioned thru a few restarts. I had not touched anything under the dash since the last time I had no power to the GP system but full power to interior lights and starter.

Its been raining since last weekend here. More rain since summer than in almost a 100 yrs. Even the old timers around here never seen this much constant rain. Not from huge storms hurricanes etc just days upon days of rain all summer and now into fall. Would swear I was in Portland Oregon during raining season.

I hope tomorrow I can get under the dash. But I think its temporarily drivable now.

Went to adj headlights and found the retainers were shot. Plan to order the retainers and bolt retaining springs from Classics along with relay harness.

Hatzie,

I also ordered a Pressmaster MTC 4300 and the anvils I will need. Wanted a fairly high quality crimper but one that could use different anvils. I wanted to stay under $100 for the base unit and have a large selection of anvils from multi sources. I wanted a inline crimper for better alignment and crimping force. This one seemed rated very high overall and especially for compression force @ 10000N. I am hoping that ensures a consistent solid cold weld.

Do you think its a good choice?

[hatzie]

It claims to do Weatherpak but no mention of Metripak, Pak Con, or Packard.
The two Delphi tools require two separate crimping operations to crimp one terminal... core and insulation. This makes them versatile enough that I've been able to use them with open wing type Deutsch DT, Molex GT, and Quadlock connectors.

The only thing they dont handle is generic terminals.

[Tarm]

It actually has dies for those. I just did a search. There are a amazing amount of dies for it. Also Waytek has the crimper under their label as well its the 560 and they sell for less $$. Here is a almost complete list of the various dies that fit and the connectors it does. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/review...97/#msg1129897

From what I read they had the pay for the rights to sell the weatherpak metripak parkard from Delphi at least according to another thread over on eevblog. But one thing that metripak/parkard die is not cheap. Its the most costly die of all offered which likely has to do with the added cost from Delphi. The main thing that drew me besides it performance is no other tool I have seen has the extensive list of available dies for so many different connectors. If there is a couple it may not do I can just buy a dedicated too for those like the ones you mention.

I just thought you may have used it or known specifics about it since it seems so highly rated and recommend so often from what I have seen online.

[hatzie]

I haven't used that tool. Looks like a high quality piece of hardware.

It doesn't have dies for the Metripak 630 & 480 terminals and the 150/280 dies cost around $110. I do a bunch of the 630 terminals every year for sealed Mini ISO relays so no 630 support would be a deal breaker for me.

My personal experience is the tools that do the insulation and core wings in one operation are less versatile than the tools that do them in separate operations. The one step tools do a nice job but it takes more of them, dies or tools, to handle the job. Since I cart my tools around the country and I have a 70lb per checked bag and three bag limit I like to minimize the tools that I check.

I use the two Delphi tools I mentioned along with a used Daniels AF8-TH1A & Daniels AFM8-K13.
My Excelite Ergo Crimp ECP112 is similar to the Pressmaster KSA... I use it for generic insulated and non-insulated terminals.

I have a couple oddball tools in my workbench drawers like the double wire Packard 56/59 tool but I bought those for specific jobs and they generally don't get used much.

[Tarm]

Thanks giving your thought process and uses helps a lot.

Once I get this handled I will be building a proper headlight relay harness. I need it to be future upgraded to higher wattage(over DOT 80/100w bulbs) for dedicated farm use down the road. Was looking at using one of those Bussman RTMR fuse/relay panels to keep everything neat, waterproof, and organized with some room for future accessory circuits. They seem well made.

I'll do a separate thread on that when I start it. But I just want to keep all my future wiring in mind going forward with tool purchases as well as how I go about upgrading things. Proper bosch german made relays etc

Likely have other parts of the harness I will upgrade as time goes on. After looking at that OEM fuse panel, boy would I love to yank that out and do that thing up proper with todays connectors and wire insulation choices and a new panel mounted better.

Will likely do much of that if/when this diesel goes tits up and I throw in one of the newer GM engines. A lower mileage pulled 5.3-6.0 liter trans combo. I have plans for this old girl well past when my daughter is done with it. Have to be careful not to do too much to it while she's driving it or she'll never let it go LOL Then again my daughters have long ago got me wrapped around their fingers so I may end up building it for her.

[hatzie]

GM used the AC Delco 15-8240 SPDT Metripack 630/280 relays for the fuel pump & Canadian DRL, among other things, on the 80's CK & RV series trucks, the 88-93 GMT400 trucks, and many of the cars of that time period.
These sealed relays would work quite well for 100W headlamps. 100W is roughly 7A at 14.5vdc and 9A at 12vdc. The switch current rating of these relays is 30A so you will not burn them up. Since they are a period GM part they wouldn't look wildly out of place on an 80's squarebody.

The connector uses two different sizes of terminals... Metripack 280 for the low power coil wires and Metripack 630 for the load wires. It allows the relay and connector to be fairly compact.

The relay connector is Aptiv (Delphi) 12052287. Mouser Electronics stocks them along with a plethora of Metripack, Weatherpak, Pak Con etc terminals.

These relays have a built-in suppression resistor across the coil, see the diagram in the attached picture, so a snubber diode should not be added to the wiring.
The terminals are labeled A, C-F.
Load terminals A,C, & E are Metripack 630. Coil terminals D & F are Metripack 280.

• C=Norm Closed
• A=Norm Open
• E=Switch Common
• D=Coil
• F=Coil

[Tarm]

Awesome I may do that then

Here was my original plan. Pick it apart if you do not mind?

30amp NO diode but dual 87 contacts was what I had planned. I was using dual 87 relay config becuase of the wattage per bulb and the typical metripak connector that fit seemed to only go to 12g wire. Ideally 2x100W bulbs per relay @ 12v, I typically prefer to load wire to 80% rating so 220w@12v 18.33A. Ideally 15-20A unless a very short run 10g. With a dual 87 I can run 12g lead to each light in the pair off the relay. Otherwise I have to use a single 12g to both lights. Maybe if the relays are not put in these boxes I can use a connector that both fits the relay blade but also 10g and I could down size to 12g for each connection to the H4 light connector?

I had planned to use hi/lo filiament bulbs in all lights and wire both pairs for hi/lo which tech DOT legal if using proper wattage bulbs but double light coverage.

Maybe my wire size to current is off but many of these fuse/relay boxes that are prewired state 80A yet are using 8g lead to battery. Am I wrong or is that not 2-3 gauges too small. Ideally I would think 2-3g wire under 10-15f if you wanted no more than 2-3% voltage drop from source output for 80A? Even AC NEC code would work out to 3g wire on a 80A single leg feed.

[hatzie]

12084590 Female Metripack 630 terminals are sized for 10AWG stranded copper. I don't have the male part number but one exists. That's pretty much the limit of the Metripack family.

Dual 87 relays are not sealed units and not as plentiful and easy to find as unsealed standard Mini ISO automotive relays or the Delco sealed relays I mentioned. You can use them in the engine bay but I'd be careful to place the wires down with drip loops and I'd coat the socket and relay terminals with silicone grease. They will fit the standard five terminal Bosch or Tyco Mini ISO relay sockets that use Female Packard 56 terminals.

You should be able to use 12ga wire to the lamps and be more than OK. 12ga should be a 3% or less drop through 15ft of wire at 14.5vdc. You have two batteries so the wire runs from the battery to the lamps should be well under 4ft total... probably less than 3ft and you have 15ft before it begins to drop more than 3%.
If you're worried you could use 10ga from the battery to the relay common switch terminal and 12ga to the lamps.

Assuming you have the quad lamp option with four 4x6 bulbs...
In stock dress all four bulbs have low beam filaments and only two have a hi and low filament. One bulb on each side lights when the headlights are switched to HI and all four light on Low.
I'd try wiring it with a properly sized Diode such that the single filament low beam lamp is lit no matter what happens with the other bulb.
If the bulbs are aimed properly Low and Hi in different bulbs should fill in the low beam areas under the high beam pattern lighting up a lot more of the road without activating two filaments at once and burning up the dual filament bulb from excessive additional heat.

Back in 1989 my "new" 1984 Subaru Brat GL 4x4 had quad lamps. When you pulled the dimmer/turn stalk back it lit the low and Hi filaments and I could see a lot more of the road than just Hi or Low beams.
A buddy had an 84 GL wagon with four dual filament bulbs and the usable light on Hi wasn't as good as just pulling back on the stalk in my Brat... No I didn't have the cyclops lamp in the Brat and neither did he.

[Tarm]

I have found that as well on lights. High beam only was less light than when you pulled back on the high beam arm and it lit the high and low together.

"In stock dress all four bulbs have low beam filaments and only two have a hi and low filament. One bulb on each side lights when the headlights are switched to HI and all four light on Low"

Are you sure you do not have that flipped or did I misunderstand what you meant? All 4 lights are suppose to be on with Low Beams and only when high one set has high + low and the other pair are just low? Hmm I could have sworn I got only 1 pair lit for low and all 4 lit on high. Opposite of what you have stated. So naturally I thought both pairs (all 4 bulbs) had high beams and only 2 of those had low beams with the high beam filaments.

Ok its almost 2am and this was bothering me so much as I thought I was crazy..... I went out plugged in some work flood lights got out my meter just in case the bulbs filaments were burned out.

There is are two power leads to the top pair of bulbs D and P. One is green and the other is a tan. On the lower pair of lights D and P there is only a single power wire which is also green going to each of those bulbs. When I set the floor dimmer switch to Low beam I get power only thru the tan wire and it lights just the low beam in the upper pair of lights. When I then switch dimmer to high beam green lead is energized and I have power going to the high beam filament is the upper light and no power on the tan lead. In the lower pair of lights I have power on its green lead as well which is the only filament is that bulb .

Just to paint a visual the tan wire is in the upper pin of the top pair of lights and the green is in the lower of the two in that connector. Then green only in the lower pair of lights connector.

This diagram seems to support this as well which I just found:

Low Beam Circuit highlighted

High Beam Circuit highlighted


Also from the look of my wiring and the bulbs this is almost 100% a sured all OEM.

But I did find this in a thread on another forum which makes me wonder did they wire these things different ways? Maybe a small batch or something?


Low Beam only One of the pair of lights. High Beam only the other pair of 2 pairs of lights


Now this above is stating something different where one set of lights is low beam ONLY the other set of lights is high beam only. Low Beam on would only be the upper pair and then in high beam only the low pair would be lit. Then consider many of the owners today were never original owners and so many of these trucks have had their lights systems modded to improve on the light output. Its no wonder there is so much confusions.



What I want is using dual filament bulbs in both pairs of lights all 4. On low beam have all 4 low beam filaments getting power *tan" lead (which with relays would be the control wire to coil). Then on high beam dimmer setting the low beam filaments would be de-energized and the high beam filaments on both pairs (all 4 lights) would be energized. This would be using the green wire as the control wire.

Figure I could cut the wires and make the new wire harness look like stock and cut out all the old harness. Or if I wanted to leave it all there I could just use one of those male connector that fits in the female stock light bulb connector. I would only need to use one light connector of the low high beam socket (one of the upper pair of lights) Have those leads goto the relays as control leads to the coil.

I just realized that with wanting all 4 lights lit each having 2 filaments I am now working with tech 8 filaments. In effect like having 8 single bulbs. This means my wattage just doubled. 100w per high beam filament and 80w per low beam filament. That means I am looking at 400W high circuit and 320W low beam circuit. At least I will only have on one or the other as I am sure those bulbs would only last a month at best if I tried to use both filaments in each bulb at the same time not to mention the H4 connector. That would be 180W per bulb and that amount of heat in the ceramic H4 plug....ouch. That would be a total of 720W and doubt those bulbs would last any amount of time from the heat.

I guess tech I could make a monetary switch that would allow all of them to be lit but seems overkill.

But this does bring up the fact that if I go with only 2 relays I am effectively doubling the wattage /amperage I am sending thru each of them as well as the wiring.

So now we have 400W add 20% for 80% load limit for wiring and relay. So 440W gives me 36.66 Amps. This just ends up IMO being too much as I am now needing larger gauge wire. I would have to use 10g off the relay even a dual 87 as each would be split to a pair of lights.

I am thinking for this to work the way I want, with generic easy to get in the middle of nowhere, I probably should go with 4 relays. On the flip side if I went with harder to find and likely more costly relays......... I could technically now, with your information of 10g connectors being viable, go with dual 87 relays. If I go in that direction for OEMs I have found that BMW and the 200 and 700 series late 80-early 90s Volvos both used dual 87 40 amp relays. One additional possible down side is I am not sure if they have diodes. If not I would have to add them via soldering to the wire connectors somehow. That could very well leave me with a DIY look and reliability which I do not want. So that is something I would have to check and weigh.

Manf by Bosch Volvo # 1 259 925-2 40A NO Dual 87 Continuous Duty (Multi-Purpose and E-Window)

1995 BMW 325 Main Computer Control Relay Bosch 61361729004 40A NO Dual 87 Continuous Duty.


Looking at this like I have 8 total lights or 4 pairs of lights. Definitely agree with and will take your recommendation and use relays with diodes if at all possible. I can then use those GM sealed 30A relays you recommend. 2 pairs high and 2 pairs low. If I do 4 relays I can to Y (or use a small terminal strip) the green and tan power leads as control leads giving me 2 green and 2 tan leads to go to each of the 4 relays.

The key goal for me after performance, reliability, and safety, is I want this to look organized, protected, and neat....professional.

Sending 4 feed lines off the battery lug is going to get needlessly messy. I should send a single power lead and go to a power distribution buss. This also allows me to integrate fusing and other features + future expan as you can get PDs with various features. The cost is not that big of a consideration at the given prices I am looking at.

I can mount all 4 relays together on the engine side panel near one of the batteries. Mount the PD next to them which would also house the fuses. If i can get a PD with a ground bus as well all grounds can terminate there as well with a single ground to frame from the PD. Heat shrink sleeve and wire loom everything nice and clean. I will look cleanest if I removed the OEM wiring and connectors just keeping a green and tan lead back to the in-cab switch.

Hatize,

How bad have I screwed this up or does it look OK?


Its overkill for just lights but It seems LittleFuse makes a Power Distribution Module: Tech Drawing that would work. Waytek carries it HERE

Has more circuits then I need and is overkill but really nice and allow for good expansion down the road. It offers a high (which at present I would not need but good for later accessories) and low current (I would use for the headlights) set of circuits all fed from if I want a single positive term to bus. The low V side which is what I would use uses Standard ATO fuses up to 30A. It has a single or multi connection ground bus terminal as well so I can term all the grounds for all the control and power circuits and run a single lead to frame.

This PD with 4 of those relays you recommended Hella Prism H4 Glass Lense enclosers. Whatever are the best ceramic HD high wattage H4 connectors x 4 I can get. Wire and connectors. 4x Hella H4 100/80W bulbs (at a future date)

[hatzie]

There are several quad beam setups. It depends on what you have.

I was going from memory of the quads in the Subies and didn't look at the GM wiring diagrams. It appears that GM wired them differently. Not shocking.

The 100/80W bulbs are not DOT road legal so it would depend on your state what you can get away with. If you don't have to be DOT legal try some Hella ECE E-Code lamps with the standard 55/35W bulbs and adjust them properly first. You might be pleasantly surprised by the light output from a quality bulb and properly designed reflector that's adjusted the way it should be. You can always get the higher output bulbs and plug them in if you're not satisfied.
The other thing that improves visible light output without blinding oncoming traffic is a decent set of driving/fog lamps that are properly aimed. Mine run with the main lamps on High and Low. I have Yellow film on my factory fog lamps on the VW and the 05 Silverado. When I'm traveling in heavy fog, heavy snow, and hard driving rain I've turned off the regular headlamps and just run the yellow fog/driving lamps with the parking lamps. They seem to reach out on the road further when the High and even low beams blind me with reflection from the various flavors of water in the air...

[Tarm]

You must have read my mind. My plan is to use the Canada approved Hella ECE kit that comes with those H4 bulbs and the Prism glass lenses. I am sure they will be plenty for my daughter and everyday driving. We live out in the sticks about 30 miles to the nearest grocery store. Lots of mountains and back forest roads etc.. T

The 100/80 are for later when it will be used for the farm and where I want as much light as I can get. Do not plan much night time use into town or on major hwy thus not much concern on my part for DOT. It have tags that require no saftey and there are no emissions testing in this part of Va. Thus no major concerns on any fronts.

Just want to make sure the system is built to properly handle the possible electrical load from such a configuration with the 100w H4.

I have used OEM HID and some of the very best aftermarkets. Have moved other vehicles OEM HIDs into other vehicles. I really wanted to like and find HIDs to be the answer. I finally had to come to the conclusions that HIDs were far more trouble than they were worth. This is especially true in country driving conditions. The issue is what many consider a positive. The sharp light cut off limit. While this is great to allow more lighting in that area without most of the time blinding other drivers its also a down fall. In remote areas having a sharp cut off is less than ideal. We need light to flow outward and diminish to give some lighting past the focus point. Otherwise unless high beams are on you have no light to see roadside deer bears etc . With HIDs you had light and then no light past cut off point. IMO in the country the splash is a positive but can not be had with HID as its all or nothing.

Most everyone out here runs halogens for this reason. Only the Mall Crawler Showy trucks run them and they are never OEMs so they are always blinding everyone.. Also H4s much easier to replace locally when they go out as they are everywhere.