Suburban Project Discussion - 4WD Family Truckster

[scootermcrad]

Hey everyone! Been a long time since I've posted on this forum. Last time it was in regards to my '64 C10 short bed. Unfortunately I had to sell the C10 recently and kind of re-evaluate our needs and wants. That being said, I've received some big support form my better half on the idea of doing a 60-66 'Burb project for our family.

For me, I absolutely love the Apache 10 "knee knocker" factory 4WD Carryall/Suburbans with the clam shell rear. After getting a couple of car projects off of my plate, I would really like to consider doing an early 4WD Suburban build. The idea being that this could be daily driver worthy and reliable enough that we could jump in at any moment and any weather and hit the road with our little camper and go anywhere with our 2 kids and dogs. Camping, parts hauling, road-trippin', whatever.

Although I would LOVE to find an all-stock factory 4WD Burb, they're getting a little harder to find and my conscious doesn't want to modify something I'll pay more for because it's a factory 4WD vehicle. So, my thoughts are to start with a 2WD 60-63 model and convert it to an early Apache 10 looking 4WD using later components. Heavier front and rear axles, disc brakes, later model overdrive, divorced transfer case, and I have a really nice 283 that I just rebuilt for the '64 that would be perfect for this build and I'm quite attached to it. Will hide some A/C in there somewhere and insulate it the best I can for those summer road trips with the fam.

I got pretty comfortable and knowledgeable of early C10's but Burbs are a new world to me. We wouldn't start this project until next year, but want to learn all I can so I can pull the trigger on everything when it's time to GO! That being said, with the help of some Burb-savvy buddies, here's how the build sheet is looking. I would love some input from you guys!

* Start with a decently solid and complete 60-63 2WD burb (Chevrolet or possibly GMC, but prefer Chevy) with clam shell rear
* Update front clip to early Apache 10 trim level
* 4WD conversion using stock frame and fabricating/robbing spring hangers for later suspension
* power steering conversion
* Dana 44 front and Dana 60 rear (or late model GM equivalent) 8 lug??
* disc brakes front and rear
* 283 backed by 4wd 4L60e (or?) overdrive and divorced NP205 transfer case
* Keep interior as stock looking as possible including shifter locations and hiding any modern amenities (A/C, stereo head unit, etc.)
* Keep under-hood looking as factory as possible
* Overall aesthetics to resemble factory 4WD Apache 10

That's the nutshell.

This will be my first 4WD project and I'm super giddy about it and hoping I can make it happen for our family. I have a lot to learn about these early Burbs to begin with, but also later model 4WD components, which is out of my wheelhouse at the moment as well. I'm not afraid of patches panels, and heavy fab is no problem for me, so I think a little sweat equity will be a must to stay within budget and keep the factory look, but I need to get a lay of the land here to get comfortable on how to approach this project.

In the meantime, I did some searches on 4WD conversion for early Burbs and surprisingly didn't come up with a whole lot here. A bit on frame differences for 60-66 2wd and 4wd, but not much on full-on conversion to later model ('72+) suspension while retaining the early frame. I would love to see any similar type projects going on or completed. And any input about what would be expected during this conversion would be great info.

I feel like building a super reliable factory looking 4WD early Suburban from a 2WD model is pretty doable. At least it is in MY mind, anyway!

Thanks for any feedback on the project and any tech that can be shared!

S

P.S. I'm sure everyone has seen this picture, but to clarify what I mean by "Factory 4WD Looking", this is what I mean...

[Clyde65]

Why a 4l60e and not a 700r4? You will need a controller for it.
Posted via Mobile Device

[scootermcrad]

Originally Posted by Clyde65

Why a 4l60e and not a 700r4? You will need a controller for it.
Posted via Mobile Device

That is an AWESOME question, actually. I've been researching the crap out of this over the weekend and looking at everything that has to be done to run the 4L60E, I think it will be completely out of scope for the project, now. I also like the idea of keeping the whole thing as mechanical as possible so at least if something happens out on the road I can work on it.

I've always read mixed reviews on 700r4's. Seems people either love them or hate them. I would like to believe that with a proper rebuild from someone that knows what they're doing, a later 700r4 or standard (non-electronically controlled) 4L60 would be a good candidate as long as everything is done and the TV cable is set up correctly. Then marry the NP205 to the tail using Advanced Adapters kit or whatever the clever adapter is. I'm still reading, though.

With the vehicle seeing more highway miles and commute miles than off road miles, I feel like an overdrive transmission makes the most sense. Towing will be very infrequent and I don't see ever pulling loads over 8000 pounds (large vehicle on a trailer), but even that is a guess and probably unlikely. So it seems a later 700r4 would be a good candidate unless I decide I'm going to start a business in uprooting 100 year old oak tree stumps with this thing.

Keep the input coming. Thank you!!!

[scootermcrad]

Also, I'm definitely open to any recommendations on year range and models to look for that would give me what I'm looking for in the way of axles, steering, suspension and chassis mounting points. Founds a couple threads that I've been reading through and have sent out some PM's to people with questions, but anything that is Burb specific that I'm missing I would love to know about. Maybe I'm searching wrong, but couldn't find a whole lot in this section of the forum. I'm wondering if the 1960 to 1962 Suburban 2wd frame is too different to convert to 4wd. Will I need to also scoop up a 60-66 4wd frame to update to later suspension, or are the frames the same where the spring hangers need to mount?

[KJSR]

Oh this is easy...just trade me one of your old hot rods for my 4x4

[scootermcrad]

Originally Posted by KJSR

Oh this is easy...just trade me one of your old hot rods for my 4x4

Well, that would be one way! HAHA

[scootermcrad]

Okay. Some updated thinking. As I'm researching more and more, it seems my idea to use the 60-62 2wd chassis and convert it will basically be impossible with the giant X brace in there. I would need to at least start with a ladder style frame of the same wheelbase from 63-66 if I'm going to convert, but ideally a 60-66 K type 4wd chassis. OR do the 73-87 chassis swap, but it seems like that would have some "body lift" to it because of how the frame kicks. Or???? Am I thinking about this correctly? Are 60-66 K10 style 4wd frames pretty available if I need to do a frame swap? And if I used a K10 frame can I use the 73-87 springs, or do I need to use the earlier springs?

Also. On the transmission situation, it seems the best option might be to have a high end heavy duty 700r4 built that I know I can depend on. A little spendy, but I think I'll get what I pay for in that case, if I go with a 700r4. Maybe something like this PerformaBuilt Heavy Hauler: https://www.performabuilt.com/produc...-hauler-700r4/. Then adapt the NP205.

[Corts60]

That trans seems like an awesome unit. Should hold up well. Now I'm thinking I may want one...great.

[aotte1]

As to your question on 4WD frame availability, suburban frames are unique to them. The 4WD frames are all based on 1 ton frames. Not sure what to suggest to you on your frame questions. Most of the options will be some work to a lot of work depending on condition of the frame you are using. Their are not a lot of them available and many were abused with bigger engines, along with big tires causing damage to the frame. Just a lot to consider and how much work you want to do. Maybe more money up front buying an original Suburban is money ahead???

In general, 2WDs give you a lot more options, easier to build, can be much better condition, along with being nice to drive with say a 91’ suburban suspension/steering under it. Keeping 6 lug wheels is pretty easy.


Maybe good idea to look at some suburbans/ 4WD, if you are not familiar with them and their traits. Older 4WDs are unique as to how they drive. Even our 86’ K30 SRW is unique at today’s interstate speeds. This is just some opinions to consider.

Like the Suburbans too, have a couple of them.

[aotte1]

Edited above post.

[zden]

An option is to use a 4x4 frame from any 63-72 swb. From what i have read the only real difference to the frame is the rear 6-8" where the 63-66 sub's have a slight kick down. basically would have to fab your own rear bumper brackets.