Diesel engine swap

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by DieselSJ

DynamicEFI make the stock ECU laptop tunable with WB O2 support. A set of stock L29 heads, 214 degree cam, intake and my torque is over 500, and I'm over 450 as low as 2000rpm. 6.0 can't touch that for towing. I have way less into this combination than a LS swap.

Donor vehicle cost differs depending on the area of the country. You're generalizing vehicle conditions in your area to the entire country the same way you desert folks assume that water is surely a scarce commodity everywhere. Not all of us live in the desert. I can dig a twenty five foot deep hole in the meadow behind my house and I'll have a well with drinking water that doesn't run dry.

A twenty year old GMT800 truck is plenty serviceable in the rust and salt free Southwest so they are in daily service and command a price based on the fact that they are a serviceable vehicle for daily use.
However... here in the salt belt they're rusting out and entering the salvage market in increasing numbers. They are great cheap LS engine donors.

The CK, RV, & GMT400 trucks with 454 engines in the salt belt rusted out and were removed from daily use long enough ago that the remaining available rigs and parts now demand a premium price in comparison to the newer GMT800 and even GMT900 rust buckets that are being retired.

[DieselSJ]

Originally Posted by hatzie

Donor vehicle cost differs depending on the area of the country. You're generalizing vehicle conditions in your area to the entire country the same way you desert folks assume that water is surely a scarce commodity everywhere. Not all of us live in the desert. I can dig a twenty five foot deep hole in the meadow behind my house and I'll have a well with drinking water that doesn't run dry.

A twenty year old GMT800 truck is plenty serviceable in the rust and salt free Southwest so they are in daily service and command a price based on the fact that they are a serviceable vehicle for daily use.
However... here in the salt belt they're rusting out and entering the salvage market in increasing numbers. They are great cheap LS engine donors.

The CK, RV, & GMT400 trucks with 454 engines in the salt belt rusted out and were removed from daily use long enough ago that the remaining available rigs and parts now demand a premium price in comparison to the newer GMT800 and even GMT900 rust buckets that are being retired.

Please price out a LS swap and modifications that will generate the HP/torque numbers that I'm pulling. I have about $1200 into everything, and that was because I had the heads redone and added new valves.

I'll say it again - you cannot LS swap and build to 454 power for less money than some simple 454 mods.

[wileecoyote427]

We had 6.0s in the dump trucks at work 3500 8ft body and they were dogs even the v10 in the brand new f550 feels gutless with a load in it I’d like to drive the new 7.3 Ford and see how that is but we haven’t gotten one yet.

[cdub2010]

Originally Posted by DieselSJ

DynamicEFI make the stock ECU laptop tunable with WB O2 support. A set of stock L29 heads, 214 degree cam, intake and my torque is over 500, and I'm over 450 as low as 2000rpm. 6.0 can't touch that for towing. I have way less into this combination than a LS swap.

What kind of gas mileage out of this setup not towing just unloaded.? I have a similar dually but with a 400 trans, no overdrive. Figuring its impossible to get better than 10mpg.

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by DieselSJ

Please price out a LS swap and modifications that will generate the HP/torque numbers that I'm pulling. I have about $1200 into everything, and that was because I had the heads redone and added new valves.

I'll say it again - you cannot LS swap and build to 454 power for less money than some simple 454 mods.

If you already have a reasonably serviceable engine and you buy Chinese parts you can probably do it for $1,500... how long is it going to last running Chinese floor sweepings inside?

Mid 90's rebuildable running 454 cores are right around a grand. Decent quality parts to build em are quite a bit more than $1,200.

The 454 is a pig. I've never run better than 10mpg unloaded with a 454 and best towing was around 8.5mpg. Might as well get an 8.1L Vortec. Similar MPG and more power.

[DieselSJ]

Originally Posted by hatzie

If you already have a reasonably serviceable engine and you buy Chinese parts you can probably do it for $1,500... how long is it going to last running Chinese floor sweepings inside?

Mid 90's rebuildable running 454 cores are right around a grand. Decent quality parts to build em are quite a bit more than $1,200.

The 454 is a pig. I've never run better than 10mpg unloaded with a 454 and best towing was around 8.5mpg. Might as well get an 8.1L Vortec. Similar MPG and more power.

What chinese parts? You are going way out in left field to try to convince yourself that the LS will compare with the 454. There is nothing Chinese that I have put in my engine. Factory GM heads, Clay Smith cam/lifters. My dually now gets better than 12 (better than 13 on the highway) with these mods and the overdrive. There is no way you can swap in a LS and make the same power as a 454 without spending a ton more money. I'm not saying LS is a better or worse engine, you just need to get out of the fantasy that building and swapping a LS is somehow more economical than just modding an existing 454.

[DieselSJ]

Originally Posted by cdub2010

What kind of gas mileage out of this setup not towing just unloaded.? I have a similar dually but with a 400 trans, no overdrive. Figuring its impossible to get better than 10mpg.

Best change was adding the overdrive. When I had the TH400 I averaged right at 9 in just regular driving. With the NV4500, I got 11 consistently. With the update to the heads and cam, I get high 12's consistently driving around town and high 13's on road trips. I was getting 6-7 with our travel trailer and now I can flirt with 10 if I take it easy. I use overdrive a lot when towing.

[SKR]

Originally Posted by DieselSJ

You are going way out in left field to try to convince yourself that the LS will compare with the 454.

That's because LSs are a cult. I asked a shop well known for big power LS builds if it would be cheaper building a big block or an LS. The only condition I had was 500lb-ft at 2500rpm. He told me there was no possible way to get a big block to do that without going to all expensive forged parts, and that an LS was the only way to go. He then showed me a build they did recently that almost made that torque, for $17,000. Meanwhile I can buy a 502 from GM for $8500. Only a cult member would come up with something crazy like that. I don't care how good the mileage is, $8500 buys a lot of gas and the 502 will do it on 87.

LSs have their place, but low end torque isn't it.

[DieselSJ]

Originally Posted by SKR

The only condition I had was 500lb-ft at 2500rpm. He told me there was no possible way to get a big block to do that without going to all expensive forged parts, and that an LS was the only way to go.

You can do that with peanut port heads. The 454SS guys get crazy numbers with those little heads.

[TwoFiftyShifter]

I think a 6.0 vs 454 is a good matchup. The 454 needs to to be bigger since the 6.0 is a newer and more efficient powerplant. Sure, the wildest drag setups are usually 572s, but give that another 15 years. Or maybe not. BBC is awesome so long as you don't fret your fuel mileage.

[Bigdually]

Since we're on the topic, I'll chime in with real world experience here. Had an 09 3500 GMC with 6.0 automatic and 4.10s. Biggest disappointment I've ever had, towed crappy, wouldn't make any hill without SCREAMING high RPMs, and I NEVER saw anything over 11 MPG.

Best buddy has a crew cab square dually. Newer GM crate 454, TH400, 4.10s or 4.11s. Will tow circles around the LS truck I had, rarely downshifts, and averages.... Yep! About 11 MPG. I'll take the BB any given day. The 6.0 is IMO the most disappointing engine for a tow rig that ever there was. The low end torque just isn't there.

There is still NO replacement for displacement. Big HP numbers are impressive, but are derived from torque and RPM. Torque is the variable that gets things moving

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by SKR

That's because LSs are a cult. I asked a shop well known for big power LS builds if it would be cheaper building a big block or an LS. The only condition I had was 500lb-ft at 2500rpm. He told me there was no possible way to get a big block to do that without going to all expensive forged parts, and that an LS was the only way to go. He then showed me a build they did recently that almost made that torque, for $17,000. Meanwhile I can buy a 502 from GM for $8500. Only a cult member would come up with something crazy like that. I don't care how good the mileage is, $8500 buys a lot of gas and the 502 will do it on 87.

LSs have their place, but low end torque isn't it.

The cult of the Big Block exists as well.

There's also the cult of the diesel and more specifically the cult of Cummins.

11mpg is more than a little optimistic on the 454 and fairly pessimistic on the 6.0L. My average on the 6.0L is 12.5mpg over the last 2 years.
The 6.0L LQ4 swap on my brothers' truck cost right around $600 for the plugs & wires, motor mounts, water pump, oil pump & pickup, fluids, and recently the $259 GMPP LQ9 cam. The engine and transmission was essentially free before the repair parts, camshaft, and motor mounts. It's a non AC truck so the AC compressor went away... if you want AC it'll cost ya.
It was a lot of work to re-purpose the GMT800 harness & PCM as a stand alone setup and the motor mounts were not drop-in parts either. I did have a complete running rust bucket as a donor if you're buying from a salvage yard you're going to get raped with no lube.

You have to weigh a bunch of factors. Location enters into the equation as well.

Want's...
-If you're towing all the time you're better off to get a diesel. The maintenance cost is higher than gasoline and the cost of a donor engine or truck is plenty high as well.
-The 454 or 8.1L Vortec are a second best for full time towing but the fuel mileage is pretty scary. The 8.1L is pretty pricey and the 454 is old enough now that you will be unlikely to find a reasonably priced un-molested core to rebuild. Rebuild parts that aren't from China will cost you as well... despite what the cult of the big block tells you.
-My 6.0L is much more to my liking than the big blocks and diesels I've owned for the occasional towing I do. Maintenance is fairly low and it gets decent fuel mileage. Mileage is not as good as a diesel and not as bad as a big block. It's roughly on par with my 305 & 350 smallblocks over the years. You'll pay a fairly healthy price for any LS truck in the salt free desert states, non-coastal South, and Pacific Northwest. You're competing with salvage yards and flippers for wrecks in the salt free states. You can find rust bucket donors fairly cheap in the salt states.

None of the three are remotely affordable if you're stuck with crate engines or bending over and grabbing your ankles for the junkyard goons.

Modifying engines for performance costs you reliability and lifespan. That's the way it is. Some mild mods are less detrimental but they do cost you on lifespan.

I have an 86 K20 to work with right now. 350-SM465-NP208-10bolt front-9.5" 14bolt rear. It needs a new engine. I'll rebuild the original 350 smallblock and run it with a rebuilt Rochester Quadrajet, cast iron intake, mechanical fuel pump, cast iron manifolds, and stock HEI. I am replacing the beat up 10 bolt with a rebuilt Dana44 and the burnt up 9.5" 14bolt with an already rebuilt 10.5" 14bolt. Probably pretty boring for you guys but it'll still be running well 150,000 miles after I'm done with the re-build.

[SKR]

Originally Posted by hatzie

The cult of the Big Block exists as well.

Sure.

Any time LSs are brought up, it's said that they 1. make more power, 2. get better mileage, 3. are cheaper, and 4. are more reliable. They're always one of those things, no matter what. With a little effort they can be two of those things. Given the right circumstances they can be three. And yet the cult members will always claim all four to be simultaneously true in every instance.

I don't know why people join the LS cult. They have their place, and they're great at what they do. But they're not the answer for everything like the cult would have you believe.

Making up stories about BBCs requiring Chinese parts to compete with LSs sounds like something a cult member would say.

I personally wouldn't put an LS in anything that didn't come with one because I hate the sound of them. I suppose I'm a member of the anticult.

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by SKR

Sure.

Any time LSs are brought up, it's said that they 1. make more power, 2. get better mileage, 3. are cheaper, and 4. are more reliable. They're always one of those things, no matter what. With a little effort they can be two of those things. Given the right circumstances they can be three. And yet the cult members will always claim all four to be simultaneously true in every instance.

I don't know why people join the LS cult. They have their place, and they're great at what they do. But they're not the answer for everything like the cult would have you believe.

Making up stories about BBCs requiring Chinese parts to compete with LSs sounds like something a cult member would say.

I personally wouldn't put an LS in anything that didn't come with one because I hate the sound of them. I suppose I'm a member of the anticult.

You're blowing smoke up our asses with your $1,200 comment. At the $1,200 price you were quoting for internals and machine work you're using Chinese parts. No way around that. Hence my comment about the cult of the big block.

Bore and hone, ground crank, align bore the mains, cleaning up the rods, three angle valve job, threaded rockers, valve guides, douching out in the hot spray, ... you're near a grand right there.
Forged pistons, Quality rings, Clevite bearings, Fel-Pro gaskets, quality camshaft, quality lifters, and other quality internals along with all the other little bits n pieces like freeze plugs, fuel pump(s), and injection repair or rebuilt carburetors not to mention the parts to re-work the distributor cost real money. You ain't going to buy those pieces for $300.

If you cut corners on a 1960's-1990's Big Block or SmallBlock rework all your hard work doesn't last. Slapping good quality parts into a block without the machine work needed for longevity means you have a worn block that'll run hot n heavy for 5,000-10,000 miles... maybe less and maybe worse than when you started.
Your MKIV & MKV big blocks are 25-50 years old. The MKVI is minimum of 20 years old... with the associated abuse of the years. Finding one that's not abused for a reasonable price is a unicorn.
You can buy a crate 501 for eight to nine grand but that ain't on par with the cost of a used rust bucket LS truck with lots of life left in the driveline and parts to sell aside from the powertrain.
I've sourced rusted out 2000-2004 K1500 trucks with just 100,000 on the clock for $500. The 4.8 & 5.3 do just fine in a grocery getter 1/2 ton truck the 4.8 power levels are on par with a stock 350 smallblock and the 5.3 is better. I've found rotted out 2000-2006 K2500 LQ4 trucks for as low as $300 with 100,000 - 150,000 on the clocks and used the engines for 3/4 & 1 ton trucks. You have to be careful of what you buy but they're easier to find than a good MKIV to MKVI or smallblock donor.

The essentially free LQ4 I used in Mikeys' truck should run another 150,000 maybe more with no issues. He's cranked around 20,000 onto it so far. That used LQ4 had over 100,000 on it so we installed an oil pump and pickup, re-sealed the pan and valve covers, and replaced the water pump for insurance. The leakdown test showed the rings, head gaskets, and valves were sealing properly and it ran nice and smooth. The donor truck frame parted company in two places and I had to cinch it together with binders for its last slow drive from VT to my barn. I sold bits off the truck til it paid for itself before I dragged it to the yard and Pat is still selling various bits off it.
The 4.8 & 5.3L with AFM get torn down and get non AFM lifters & cam installed. This costs money for gaskets and the GMPP cam kits.

If you need stump pulling torque get a Cummins or Dirtymax.
If you want to say you have a diesel get a 6.2 or 6.5L AMG GM diesel.
If you need to tow a lot get a Cummins, Dirtymax, or an 8.1L MKVII Vortec.
If you want bragging rights get a 501 or build a MKIV-MKVI big block.
If you want decent power for some towing and reasonable fuel mileage get an LQ4 with a 4L80 or LY6 with a 6L or 8L.
If you want a reliable engine that makes reasonable power that you don't have to fight with all the time get a 5.3 or 4.8 LS.

[DieselSJ]

Originally Posted by hatzie

You're blowing smoke up our asses with your $1,200 comment. At the $1,200 price you were quoting for internals and machine work you're using Chinese parts. No way around that. Hence my comment about the cult of the big block.

Bore and hone, ground crank, align bore the mains, cleaning up the rods, three angle valve job, threaded rockers, valve guides, douching out in the hot spray, ... you're near a grand right there.
Forged pistons, Quality rings, Clevite bearings, Fel-Pro gaskets, quality camshaft, quality lifters, and other quality internals along with all the other little bits n pieces like freeze plugs, fuel pump(s), and injection repair or rebuilt carburetors not to mention the parts to re-work the distributor cost real money. You ain't going to buy those pieces for $300.

If you cut corners on a 1960's-1990's Big Block or SmallBlock rework all your hard work doesn't last. Slapping good quality parts into a block without the machine work needed for longevity means you have a worn block that'll run hot n heavy for 5,000-10,000 miles... maybe less and maybe worse than when you started.
Your MKIV & MKV big blocks are 25-50 years old. The MKVI is minimum of 20 years old... with the associated abuse of the years. Finding one that's not abused for a reasonable price is a unicorn.
You can buy a crate 501 for eight to nine grand but that ain't on par with the cost of a used rust bucket LS truck with lots of life left in the driveline and parts to sell aside from the powertrain.
I've sourced rusted out 2000-2004 K1500 trucks with just 100,000 on the clock for $500. The 4.8 & 5.3 do just fine in a grocery getter 1/2 ton truck the 4.8 power levels are on par with a stock 350 smallblock and the 5.3 is better. I've found rotted out 2000-2006 K2500 LQ4 trucks for as low as $300 with 100,000 - 150,000 on the clocks and used the engines for 3/4 & 1 ton trucks. You have to be careful of what you buy but they're easier to find than a good MKIV to MKVI or smallblock donor.

The essentially free LQ4 I used in Mikeys' truck should run another 150,000 maybe more with no issues. He's cranked around 20,000 onto it so far. That used LQ4 had over 100,000 on it so we installed an oil pump and pickup, re-sealed the pan and valve covers, and replaced the water pump for insurance. The leakdown test showed the rings, head gaskets, and valves were sealing properly and it ran nice and smooth. The donor truck frame parted company in two places and I had to cinch it together with binders for its last slow drive from VT to my barn. I sold bits off the truck til it paid for itself before I dragged it to the yard and Pat is still selling various bits off it.
The 4.8 & 5.3L with AFM get torn down and get non AFM lifters & cam installed. This costs money for gaskets and the GMPP cam kits.

If you need stump pulling torque get a Cummins or Dirtymax.
If you want to say you have a diesel get a 6.2 or 6.5L AMG GM diesel.
If you need to tow a lot get a Cummins, Dirtymax, or an 8.1L MKVII Vortec.
If you want bragging rights get a 501 or build a MKIV-MKVI big block.
If you want decent power for some towing and reasonable fuel mileage get an LQ4 with a 4L80 or LY6 with a 6L or 8L.
If you want a reliable engine that makes reasonable power that you don't have to fight with all the time get a 5.3 or 4.8 LS.

Try to keep up with the conversation. No one said I rebuilt the engine for $1200.

I had a good existing 100K mile 454 in my truck. Cost of heads, head work, cam/lifters/springs/valves, timing chain, and ECU mods was about $1200.

You cannot swap in an LS and have it make the power that I make for that price. Period. That is why I challenged you to price out an LS swap that makes the same power that I am making. You can't do it.

[SKR]

Originally Posted by SKR

.

Originally Posted by hatzie

You're blowing smoke up our asses with your $1,200 comment.

With my $1200 comment? Which one was that again?

I think the OP should go with an LS. It'll probably work for him, and it'll help your blood pressure go down.

[DieselSJ]

Originally Posted by SKR

With my $1200 comment? Which one was that again?

I think the OP should go with an LS. It'll probably work for him, and it'll help your blood pressure go down.

I said that. But big block guys all look the same to him.

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by DieselSJ

I said that. But big block guys all look the same to him.

I've run big blocks, diesels, smallblocks, and LQ4 truck motors.

The knee jerk reaction that everyone needs to have 500hp or a diesel to tow is a bit obnoxious.
It's like the people that say you have to have a Dana 60 and NP205 in your 4wd and the Dana44 or 10 bolt and the NP208 are garbage.

It's down to expectations. I might tow once a month and the LQ4 in my 2500HD does just fine. I don't need to tow my 18' flatbed at 95mph on the interstate and I don't worry about 0-60 times with the trailer either. It'll do 60-65 uphill with a 2013 Toyota Tundra 5.7L strapped to the trailer.

You have to have the right starting point.

If a rotted out Panel truck with a Cummins 4BT fell in your lap for $250 you could swap it in for around what you paid for the 454 modifications. That's a Unicorn.

You already had a good running 454 in a truck. That's a far cry from finding one for a reasonable price. That's pretty close to a Unicorn.

Rust bucket good running GMT800 trucks with life left in the drivelines but not the chassis are very inexpensive here in the salty Northeast. Hence the popularity of these drivelines.

If you have a 4wd no AC truck, you aren't afraid of wiring and have the tools and experience to do it right, and you can sell some parts from the T800 donor like we did and it is downright cheap to do. Time consuming but cheap.
We paid for motor mounts, clocking ring for the NP208, VSS pulse generator that screws into the speedometer cable, various hoses, exhaust, frame mounted high pressure fuel pump and electric rad fans... that's about it. The original fuel tanks HVLP pumps, and senders were toast so you can't really count the replacements as part of the swap. Body work, glass, lighting etc the same way.

You can bump the power levels up to LQ9 territory with a cam swap and headers.
It's not 500hp but it's a respectable advertised 443 hp at 5,400 rpm and 467 lb-ft of torque at 4,500 rpm according to Scoggin Dicky.
Mikeys' truck has noticeably more power than the LQ4 in my 05 since he played with the cam, exhaust, and the PCM. I don't like to mod my daily drivers.

[SunSoaked]

Tesla cybertruck will out tow your nasty smoking diesel and get way better milage than your 6.0 LS. And I guarantee if will generate its own cult. Life is a compromise...pick your poison.

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by SunSoaked

Tesla cybertruck will out tow your nasty smoking diesel and get way better milage than your 6.0 LS. And I guarantee if will generate its own cult. Life is a compromise...pick your poison.

No points to Tesla for beauty but the new GM, Ferd, and Dodge ain't purdy trucks either.
The instant torque of an EV is scary high.
On short trips the EV should spank everything else in power and acceleration... as long as the loads are really secured.

Internal combustion will still spank an EV truck on range.

It's all a trade off.
Score it on paper in four or more columns... want, need, cost, time to complete.
Then pick your poison.

[SunSoaked]

We'll put! Looks like the Jetsons are still way ahead of us silly humans.

And I agree, the new Chevy trucks are butt ugly. GMC is slightly less ugly.

That 6 position tailgate doesn't offset the ugly factor but it's cool.

[DieselSJ]

Originally Posted by hatzie

If a rotted out Panel truck with a Cummins 4BT fell in your lap for $250 you could swap it in for around what you paid for the 454 modifications. That's a Unicorn.

I have a couple vehicles that I would purchase specifically for a 4bt swap should an engine fall in my lap for $250.

Truth be told I did consider building a LS based 408 for the dually because I have seen some extremely impressive, nearly flat torque curves (500+) that would make an excellent towing engine. But I was looking at nearly $10K for the engine alone.

I also considered building another 6.5 to match what I put in my Jeep. But the cost of building a 6.5 is getting into the close to $10K range now and too many replacement parts are Chinese sourced (can't find a set of non-cracked GM heads anywhere). The stuff that AM General has is stupid expensive, but North America castings.

So for now the 454 got the heads, cam and tune which will get me along for a while. And the NV4500 makes it tow way better than it ever did with the TH400. And sometime in the future it will get a mechanical 6bt/NV5600 combo.

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by DieselSJ

I have a couple vehicles that I would purchase specifically for a 4bt swap should an engine fall in my lap for $250.

You can dream but diesels are in vogue... so they usually cost way more than they are worth.

I have a GM 6.5L TurboDiesel in my 2000 GMC but I wouldn't go looking for one. So far I've avoided the main web cracks and splits between the valves but I don't want to say it out loud next to the truck.
How have you done on nozzles for the injectors?
The last I read parts made in countries other than India and China that are made out of metal that won't erode in 15,000 miles are difficult to source.
I found a set of Bosch nozzles made in Estonia or Poland last time and they are getting toward 85,000 miles now.
I may use a set of Monark nozzles from the Benz guys next time I build a set.

[DieselSJ]

Originally Posted by hatzie

You can dream but diesels are in vogue... so they usually cost way more than they are worth.

I have a GM 6.5L TurboDiesel in my 2000 GMC but I wouldn't go looking for one. So far I've avoided the main web cracks and splits between the valves but I don't want to say it out loud next to the truck.
How have you done on nozzles for the injectors?
The last I read parts made in countries other than India and China that are made out of metal that won't erode in 15,000 miles are difficult to source.
I found a set of Bosch nozzles made in Estonia or Poland last time and they are getting toward 85,000 miles now.
I may use a set of Monark nozzles from the Benz guys next time I build a set.

Oh yeah, people selling used engines believe they are selling gold by the pound. Prices are crazy. That is one reason the dually doesn't have a diesel yet. You can find deals, but they are few and far between.

There are a few suppliers that have genuine Bosch nozzles and I've been lucky enough to get some when I need some. Rebuilding them isn't hard and the biggest expense was building a pressure test stand. I'll have to check that other brand - thanks for the tip!

My latest 6.5 was built on a mil-surplus Navistar cast block. Don't let people lie to you and tell you the Navistar stuff doesn't crack...it does and I have a cracked one in my garage if anyone doubts me.

[LT7A]

Very interesting thread. Thanks to the participants. The answers show some biases, but we're all humans. DD being an LS and my projects trucks having 454s, I read through the biases to the facts with unabashed interest. I'm an off-the-line torque guy, so pre-LS is my hobby bias. But my DD gets going nicely once the LS spins up. The pre-LS preference for towing makes sense to me.