Dana 70 questions

[Kalums]

Ok guys I've done quite a bit of searching on here and the internet (which I feel like has become significantly dummer in the past few years) and I can't seem to find much about the Dana 70( 70-b specifically), I'm currently in a little bit of a quandary. As many of you know I've got a 1971 GMC K2500 that we all call "Frankie" because previous owners over the years have absolutely chopped up and Frankensteined the truck a significant amount. Well Frankie has a 1973 Dodge W300 Dana 70b under his flat bed. I just got finished rebuilding it this past winter/early spring. I did all the bearings and the inner seal when I rebuilt the brakes. I did not change out the bearing race(s) as the previous bearings looked pretty good and couldn't find any lips/ridges/scratches with my finger nail or a pick, didn't mess with the carrier/ring & pinion other than to check lash and play. I recently bought new tires (all 6, 235/85 R16 Michelin Cross-climate) and found that the inner rims were from a Gen 2 Dodge dually (8x6.5 otherwise known as 8x165.1) with a 4.77 center bore and the outer 2 rims are Ford Accuride from the 80s or 90s 8x6.5 with a 4.88 center bore, both sets "flat" faced and i don't know a way to center them correctly. You can imagine how I found out at 65mph and my empty backend bouncing around like a galloping horse *rolls eyes*... You guys can figure out the rest of the day and to topit off my seals are now leaking. Come to find out this axle is supposed to be lug-centric with "coined" faced rims. I can't find ANY with a 4.77 center bore. Long story not so short I need to make a few decisions that I'm willing to bet a few of you have made before so I put it to you guys 1)do I swap out the axle? Dana 60? GM Dana 70? GM 14 bolt? 2)Do I stay DRW or change to SRW? Are the Ford/GM/Dodge outer hubs interchangeable on a Dana 70-b? My internet skills are not nearly as good as some of you guys. I would really appreciate any help. I just got it back from the transmission shop and was hoping to put it to work earning it's keep... Because I am now officially "truck poor" *laughs*... No seriously. Again and as always thank you in advance you guys rock. ��

[Richard]

Coned or beveled face lugs nuts will not have any problem centering a correct wheel on the lugs. Maybe a difference in strength as opposed to hub centric? I would think that the sleeved lug nuts need a looser tolerance and would allow for more run out than a coned nut. Run spacers on the back of my 94, any hub centering is not there. No problems for many years now. IMO no problem with wheel type. Maybe the wheels, tires or elsewhere.

[madkow70]

You’re absolutely right on the lug-centric issue, those coined rims matter. The 70B hubs aren’t easily swappable between brands without machining, and mixing rim specs is asking for seal wear and vibration like you’re seeing.

If you’re staying DRW and need availability, a GM 14-bolt might be the easiest long-term call. If you switch to SRW, sourcing is simpler, but make sure you’re okay giving up the heavier-duty footprint

[Kalums]

Originally Posted by Richard

Coned or beveled face lugs nuts will not have any problem centering a correct wheel on the lugs. Maybe a difference in strength as opposed to hub centric? I would think that the sleeved lug nuts need a looser tolerance and would allow for more run out than a coned nut. Run spacers on the back of my 94, any hub centering is not there. No problems for many years now. IMO no problem with wheel type. Maybe the wheels, tires or elsewhere.

You are 100% correct, the problem I'm having is the set up that is on the truck is not correct, I have flat faced rims with different center bores and 1 piece flat lug nuts on a hub designed for "coined" ( the alternating inny outy lug hole pattern) faced rims and I can't find correct ones to fit. Why I'm pretty sure it is the outer set of rims as the inners sit on the hub and run alone no wobble or vibration of any kind up to 70mph( haven't driven any faster ever in this truck), if I ADD the outers with the 4.88 center bore in any configuration, instant "gallop". Also if I add them alone I can not get the hubs to come anywhere near centered and I get gallop. Even if I change to Acorn style lug nuts there is still gallop, it is IMHO very different than any unbalanced wheel I've ever driven on. Wheels with or without tires balanced out pretty well on 2 different tires balancing machines ( and yes the tires were "force matched" when on the rims, less than 1.5oz of weight on any of the 4 rims). The rims with the 4.77 bore diameter are dang tight on the 5/8 lug studs too not room for a conical Acorn style lug nut, the Accuride rims are a little looser but there is no bevel of any kind on either side/face of the rim(s).

[Kalums]

Originally Posted by madkow70

YouÂ’re absolutely right on the lug-centric issue, those coined rims matter. The 70B hubs arenÂ’t easily swappable between brands without machining, and mixing rim specs is asking for seal wear and vibration like youÂ’re seeing.

If youÂ’re staying DRW and need availability, a GM 14-bolt might be the easiest long-term call. If you switch to SRW, sourcing is simpler, but make sure youÂ’re okay giving up the heavier-duty footprint

The plan WAS to frame mount a gooseneck hitch and have this puppy pull a tandem axle dump trailer or similar horse trailer. But as long as it is serviceable SRW would be fine... I mean it is only a 350 engine definitely not gonna try to pull/move what a Cummins/ PowerStroke or Duramax can handle. I'm semi-realistic *laughs*

[Sheepdip]

GM Dually Wheels 16 x 6.5 from 1973 up to about the year 2000 or so were 4.56 +/- center bore any machine shop should be able to make them 4.77"

[Kalums]

Originally Posted by Sheepdip

GM Dually Wheels 16 x 6.5 from 1973 up to about the year 2000 or so were 4.56 +/- center bore any machine shop should be able to make them 4.77"

Agreed, I've got 2 shops close(ish) and either one really wanted to... The one I've used before for other stuff said point blank the rims I have were older and of "some pretty hard, narly stuff" and he wasn't enthusiastic about chewing up his bits/blades. The other guy gave me a "get stuffed" price of $75 EACH rim... Just to cut the center bore 😭

[kwmech]

Have you tried these guys

https://www.stockwheels.com/?gad_sou...hocacqqavd_bwe


Given that..........I'd try to figure out exactly what rims you are working with, as the above site only shows a 16.5 rim as an OE option. I would take measurements and do a little more homework

[Kalums]

Originally Posted by kwmech

Have you tried these guys

https://www.stockwheels.com/?gad_sou...hocacqqavd_bwe


Given that..........I'd try to figure out exactly what rims you are working with, as the above site only shows a 16.5 rim as an OE option. I would take measurements and do a little more homework

Well... I went out to the salvage yard and found the correct 16" rims( single piece not the 2 piece rims) *thumb up* had them pull them (they were on a 1976 1 ton flatbed with a Dana 70b, *sarcastic shocked face*) had them pull the tires and the inside of the rims were rusted almost all the way through... The guy there showed me a 14 bolt SRW full floater out of a 1993 1 ton with 4.10 like my front(open diff, drum brakes - but parts are readily available) spring perches measure correctly, but I'll have to cut ad re-weld shock mounts... For $300... No more duals... But I'm not too stressed about that. Still a pretty beefy axle. Let me know what else I need to consider while doing this swap... Thx

[kwmech]

Does your 3/4 ton have a dana 60 front with the dually offset rims or the standard Dana 44 with single wheel?

[Kalums]

Originally Posted by kwmech

Does your 3/4 ton have a dana 60 front with the dually offset rims or the standard Dana 44 with single wheel?

Standard Dana 44f, wish it had a 60...maybe further down the road. Salvage yard had 2 Dana 60 passenger side drop there, 4.56 gear and a 5.13 ( I believe, but don't quote me) but he wants 1k each... Too rich for my wallet.

[kwmech]

So just go with the single wheel on the back with the 14 bolt and standard GM 16'' rims. 14 bolts are tough

[Kalums]

Originally Posted by kwmech

So just go with the single wheel on the back with the 14 bolt and standard GM 16'' rims. 14 bolts are tough

That is what I ended up doing, now I get to learn about shock/ spring perch relocation and how to make sure I get the pinion angle correct. * thumbs up* probably going to start a new thread, can't find a ton on the forum about specifics on how to do either other than "yeah, I did this and it looks cool" *laughs*

[57taskforce]

A little hint… if you get a 14 bolt out of a square body 1 ton, C or K 30, the perches are already in the right spot and you just have to move one shock mount. The C/K 20’s with a 14 bolt don’t apply as they have the 42.5” spacing instead of the 67-72 40.5” spacing like the later 1 tons. I’ve got a square body cab and chassis 14 bolt converted to single wheel that I’ve built with late model GM disks about ready to go into my K20.

[Kalums]

Originally Posted by 57taskforce

A little hint… if you get a 14 bolt out of a square body 1 ton, C or K 30, the perches are already in the right spot and you just have to move one shock mount. The C/K 20’s with a 14 bolt don’t apply as they have the 42.5” spacing instead of the 67-72 40.5” spacing like the later 1 tons. I’ve got a square body cab and chassis 14 bolt converted to single wheel that I’ve built with late model GM disks about ready to go into my K20.

*sighs* Well I ended up with the 14 bolt FF out of the 93 Suburban because it has the slip on drum (don't have to take the whole hub off) so I'm already cutting off the spring/shock perches. So I need to put my spacing at 40.5"? I was actually just trying to find that information.

[57taskforce]

The slip off drums are definitely a huge plus of the later axles. Yes 40.5” should be the number you are looking for on 67-72 K truck.

[Kalums]

Originally Posted by 57taskforce

The slip off drums are definitely a huge plus of the later axles. Yes 40.5” should be the number you are looking for.

Is that outside to outside edge(s) or center to center? Also how do I get my pinion angle correct? Or should I just keep what the 14 bolt currently has? I don't have a lift of any kind on the 71.

[57taskforce]

40.5 on center. For pinion angle you strip the old perches off the housing and then set the new ones in place at the 40.5 centers on the axle with it sitting under the truck at ride height. Basically you want the pinion to point at the transfer case yoke. Use a floor jack to adjust and hold the angle. I like to put the u bolts and lower saddles on and very lightly tighten them up to hold everything in place but still be able to adjust the angle. If it’s up or down any more than a small amount you will get vibrations. There are online calculators that will tell you the angle you should set it at based on the angle of the output yoke on the transfer case. Use an angle finder on the flat of the housing just below the pinion yoke to find the angle of the axle. It’s not hard but can take a little time to get right. If you want to test out your angle before final welding just lay a couple heavy tack welds on your perches to the axle tubes, bolt it up and go for a gentle drive. You’ll likely know before 50 mph if you got it right or not. If it’s wrong cut your tacks and adjust it.

[Kalums]

Originally Posted by 57taskforce

40.5 on center. For pinion angle you strip the old perches off the housing and then set the new ones in place on the axle with it sitting under the truck at ride height. Basically you want the pinion to point at the transfer case yoke. If itÂ’s up or down any more than a small amount you will get vibrations. There are online calculators that will tell you the angle you should set it at based on the angle of the output yoke on the transfer case. Use an angle finder on the flat of the housing just below the pinion yoke to find the angle of the axle. ItÂ’s not hard but can take a little time to get right.

That doesn't seem too complicated, just be patient and take my time. Measure 10 times calculate 5 and weld once... Any other pointers? I can use all the help I can get. Am I going to need a new driveshaft? I understand the 14 bolt has a shorter "snout" than the Dana 70 currently under my truck. I have a slip yoke but I doubt I can get much more out of the "slip" it only has about 2-2.5" left before it is extended all the way.

[Kalums]

So quick update, apparently these older Dodge dually axles need "coined" or "coin faced" rims, which are hard/impossible to find with a 4.77" center bore. Well Dodge/Chrysler came out with a relevant TSB back in 1992(ish)? That is apparently pertinent to my issue:

TSB 22-02-92
Wheel Vibration


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Apr. 6, 1992

THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 22-01-91 REV. A WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES.

Models:

1989-1992 (AD) Ram Pickup/Ram Cab & Chassis
Power Ram Cab & Chassis

THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO 350 SERIES AD MODELS WITH FLANGE TYPE LUG NUTS.

Symptoms:

A customer complaint of a wheel and tire vibration, at highway speeds, on smooth road surfaces. This condition may be caused by the wheels being off center on the wheel studs.

Diagnosis:

A properly centered wheel will have a balanced amount of space for each lug nut flange to the wheel center hole; an off center condition will show a variable amount of space. Perform a visual inspection and road test vehicle to verify condition.

Parts:

2 90° Cone Nuts 1273556

Repair Procedure:

This repair involves wheel centering procedure.

1. Raise the vehicle so that the tire(s) are off the ground. Do not remove the wheel(s) from the vehicle.

2. Loosen all lug nuts. Remove two (2) of the flange nuts 1800 apart (do not discard). Use the positions with the largest flare surface for cone nut contact.

3. Replace the two (2) flange nuts with the 900 cone nuts, PN 1273556, and torque to 68 N-m (50 ft. lbs.).

4. Some loosening and tightening of the cone nuts and repositioning of the wheel might be necessary to obtain a centered wheel.

5. When centered, tighten the six (6) flange nuts and torque to 68 N-m (50 ft. lbs.). Replace the two (2) cone nuts with the flange nuts that were previously removed and torque to 68 N-m (50 ft. lbs.).

6. Torque all the flange nuts to 407-475 N-m (300-350 ft. lbs.) in an alternating pattern, Figure 1.
Wheel Lug Nut Tightening Pattern

Figure 1 link:
http://dodgeram.info/tsb/1992/figures/22-02-92-f1.gif



7. Visually verify to see if the wheel is centered properly. Check tire air pressure to make sure it is properly inflated.

8. Repeat the procedure as necessary to assure all wheels are properly centered.

9. Road test vehicle to confirm your repair.

AS A COURTESY TO THE CUSTOMER, PLEASE PROVIDE THEM WITH THE CONE NUTS FOR FUTURE USE (EX. TIRE OR WHEEL REPLACEMENT).

NOTE: THE CONE NUTS SHOULD BE USED TO CENTER ALL WHEELS, FRONT OR REAR.

Notes:

POLICY: Reimbursable within the provisions of the warranty.

TIME ALLOWANCE:
Labor Operation No. 22-40-01-93 . . . . . . . . . . . 0.3 Hrs.

FAILURE CODE: 51 - Improperly installed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I followed this except I did 4 "coned" lug nuts(on each side, in a + pattern) to center the outer rim and the inner is sitting on the lip of the hub... So it is kind of a hybrid, of the lug-centric and hub-centric systems. I just drove it for about 20 mins at varying speeds up to 70 and no vibration. *thumbs up* only time will tell.

[Steeveedee]

300-350 ft. lbs. Seriously?

[Kalums]

Originally Posted by Steeveedee

300-350 ft. lbs. Seriously?

Apparently... I was a little surprised too, my torque wrench only goes to 300 ft-lbs so... That is what it got.. Didn't want to ugha dugha them down with my M18 impact and possibly snap a stud... Then I'd have a whole new problem *rolls eyes*

[kwmech]

Originally Posted by Steeveedee

300-350 ft. lbs. Seriously?

Yeah, some of the older dodges had 5/8'' studs

[Kalums]

Originally Posted by kwmech

Yeah, some of the older dodges had 5/8'' studs

Mine has the 5/8-18 studs. It took 300 ft-lbs so... *shrugs*, ran up to the dump again today, other than the seams in the pavement seems to be working fine. Don't mind the Anti-seize I ran the lugs in/out about a dozen times, it gets tiring... Hence Anti-seize.

[RichardJ]

>> my torque wrench only goes to 300 ft-lbs so...<<

That can be extended fairly easy. I bolted a breaker bar to a length of cannel iron with my beam torque wrench. Not something I use very often, but works well.