1965 C10 LWB Project Build Thread

[350TacoZilla]

Haha thanks man, both my projects that were waiting for the 4.8's are light weight and plans were to just drop in the stock motors aside from headers if required for each swap.

1983 RX7 plans were 4.8, T5 and narrowed mustang 8.8 3.08-3.27 gears
1997 Tacoma plans were 4.8, NV3500, NP208, D30HP front and the stock 8.4" rear

I actually collected all the drive train parts listed above except for the mustang rear before losing steam on projects. My biggest project is my 1963 GMC 1500 that I plan on starting this year finally, will have to just pick at it slowly and then rest up between.

[JohnIL]

I wrapped up the rear sway bar installation over the weekend. The rear installation was almost as easy as the front. The only hard part was more overhead drilling. The mounting holes for the sway bar brackets straddle the "seam" between the two halves of the rear truck bars. Drilling those holes and mounting the brackets was slow and tedious. But, other than that, the installation was fairly simple. Refreshingly, the included instructions were detailed and easy to follow.

With the new sway bars installed, I took the truck for a test drive. I'm very happy with the results. I took the truck down a couple twisty back roads and the body roll is virtually gone. The '65 now corners flatter than either of our modern daily drivers. I don't feel like I'm going to roll off the edge of every curve anymore. The only downside is that the new flatter suspension accentuates the relative sloppiness of the steering system. All the steering components are new, but it's still 60+ year old engineering. I can see why autocross builders use rack and pinion instead of the original style Saginaw steering box and tie rods.

If your truck came from the factory without sway bars, like mine did, I can't recommend this upgrade enough. Adding front and rear sway bars goes a long way toward making these old trucks drive like something much more modern.

John

[JohnIL]

The next upgrade on the agenda, and the first step toward the upcoming LS drive train swap, is to install a new fuel tank between the rear frame rails. The original in-cab tank works fine, but I'd like gain some space behind the seats and it gives me a chance to install an in-tank EFI electric fuel pump. I went with a tank, pump, sending unit, and in-bed filler neck from Tanks, inc. So far, I'm very happy with the fit and finish of the Tanks products. The build quality looks to be top-notch.

TM6372--HT - 1963-72 Chevy Truck Frame Mount EFI Tank Bed Fill
TM6372 Filler Neck Option: 2" ID x 6" Hose Connection
FN-AIR - Aircraft Style Flush Mount Aluminum Filler Neck
TAN--GME - 5 Bolt Universal Fuel Sending Unit
GPA-2 - Deluxe Fuel Pump Module - 190 Liters Per Hour

The first order of business was to make room for the tank. I removed the rear two lower cross members using a cutting wheel and an air chisel. Next, I balanced the new tank on top of a couple of milk crates. That got me within about an inch of the bottom of the frame rails. After some careful measuring, I marked the frame where I want the tank to mount. There were already a handful of holes in each frame rail. I picked out four holes, spaced near the tank corners and transferred those locations to the tank mounting flanges. After drilling the mounting holes in the tank flanges, I mocked the tank into place. That all sounds easy, but it took the better part of a day to get that far. The pictures below are of the tank mounted temporarily.

My biggest concerns were the exhaust tail pipes and how far the tank hangs below the framerails. The pictures below show both pretty well. The exhaust shop did a great job of leaving space for the tank (I let them know this was coming someday). And, although the lowest part of the tank (the front edge) hangs lower than the tail pipes, it's well above the bottom of the differential. There's always a chance of road debris hitting the tank, but no more than they average sedan.

After this mock-up, I removed the tank to clear the area for rust treatment. The frame is solid, but there is, of course, surface rust. I "cleaned" the frame from the rear springs reward with a 36 grit wheel, then dowsed the area with Eastwood rust converter. After that all dries, I will coat the frame with Eastwood's Rust Encapsulator Plus paint. We used the same recipe on the frame and floors of my son's El Camino and that all still looks good five years later. I'll treat the rest of the frame to the same routine when I do the rust repair to the cab mounts and the cab floors.

While the tank is out of the truck, I will pre-install the in-tank pump, wiring, and plumbing. With all that done, I'll hang the tank in place, ready for the new drive train to be installed. Forward prgress...

John

[JohnIL]

The new tank is in.

As I mentioned in Part 1, before installing the tank, I cleaned up the frame from the rear springs back to the rear bumper. Then, I slathered everything with Eastwood rust converter. After that dried, it all got coated with Eastwood Rust Encapsulator Plus paint.

While the paint was drying, I installed the in-tank EFI fuel pump, the fuel gauge sending unit, and the fuel fill neck. Then, I pre-plumbed the supply, vent, and return lines and pre-wired the fuel pump and sending unit. With that finished, it was time to bolt the tank in place. I coiled the hoses and wires and zip tied them to the cross member above the rear axle to keep them out of the way until I'm ready to build the rest of the fuel system for the LS swap.

With the tank installed in it's new home, I used some calibrated guesswork to drill a hole through the bed wood for the in-bed fuel fill. The bedwood is garbage, so I wasn't too worried about messing up. To my surprise, I drilled the hole precisely where it needed to be. I couldn't do that again if I tried!

When I order the tank from Tanks, inc., I ordered this slick aviation style fuel fill. It's WAY too nice for the old bed wood, but it will look great when I replace the bed wood someday.

[JohnIL]

As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, I found an LS drive train for the C10. The engine and transmission arrived over the weekend. From what I've seen so far, it looks to be exactly as advertised. It's a 2002 5.3L and 4L60E with only 75,000 miles. Other than the rusty exhaust manifolds, everything looks virtually new.

I plan to leave the engine stock, so there's no need to tear it apart. But, I do plan to replace the exhaust manifolds and oil pan to allow some extra clearance around the C10 frame and front crossmember. And, the wiring harness has to come off to be reworked for stand-alone use. I started by removing the factory exhaust manifolds. I managed to remove all the bolts without breaking any! Next, I pulled the coil packs and brackets off the valve covers to keep them safe until the engine is in the truck.

That's about as far as I've gotten, so far. I hope to get the wiring harness removed, boxed up, and sent off for conversion in the next week, or so. I'm sure I could rework the harness myself, but I'm OK with outsourcing that part to someone who knows these harnesses better than I do. I'll also send the ECU out for reprogramming soon. I'd like to get these pieces done and set aside while I work on collecting components for the drive train swap later this year.

LOTS more to come...

[SCOTI]

Good progress.

[JohnIL]

It's been a while, but I finally have some progress to report. I spent most of the summer doing unexpected home repairs at my parent's place. You know, life. I did manage to break away to take the truck to the annual Southern Illinois Truck Showdown in Marion, IL. This is my third trip and the show just gets better every year. Now that fall is upon us and the emergency home repairs have calmed down, at least for the moment, it's time to dig into the LS swap in earnest.


Out With the Old
This past weekend, the old small block and thrashed 4-speed manual came out. I started draining fluids on Friday night after work. By late Saturday afternoon, the old drivetrain was on the floor. I split the engine and transmission for easier storage. The engine now resides on a rolling storage stand.

I fogged the cylinders with oil and taped off all the openings to keep it clean. The engine needs a gasket set to seal up some minor leaks. Other than that, it's perfectly serviceable. It's a stock 1979 350 with lots of new accessories and shiny parts. If anyone is interested, the small block is for sale. Send me a PM.


Cleanup
With the old drivetrain out of the way, I spent Sunday cleaning up the engine bay. I started by I power washing away as much dirt, oil and grime as possible. Then, I removed any extraneous bits and pieces, like the fuel pressure regulator, the old battery cables, and old cobbled together clutch pivot. Next, I spent some quality time with a cutting wheel and a flap disk cleaning up frame rails, cross member, core support, and inner fenders. While I had easy access to the inner fenders, I cleaned up the trimming I did at the bottom of the driver side inner fender during the power steering installation.

If this was serious show truck, now would be the time to weld up all of the bolt holes in the inner fenders and the firewall. But, this is more of a driver/restomod. It won't be all that refined. And, a lot of those holes will get reused to mount components for the new LS drivetrain. At this point, I only have a general idea of where all those components will go.

With everything cleaned up, it was time to address the rust. Even after the flap wheel, the frame, crossmember, and core support were speckled with surface rust. So, everything got a liberal coat of Eastwood Rust Convertor. Once that dries overnight, it will all get coated in the same company's Rust Encapsolator paint. Then, I plan to spray the whole engine bay with satin black. Ideally, it would all be body-color. But, I haven't even picked out a body color. Maybe someday. But, for now, an even coat of black will make a nice background for the LS.

Next up was draining the old fuel tank. A few months ago, in preparation for the LS swap, I installed a new under-bed fuel tank. I pre-plumbed and pre-wired everything before the tank went in. I don't need the old in-cab fuel tank anymore. So, I drained the remaining fuel into gas jugs. I'll remove the old fuel tank while I have the seats out of the cab to do some repairs on the transmission tunnel.


All Things Happen for a Reason
Ever since I secured the LS drivetrain last spring, my intention was to tear into the swap this fall. And, it's lucky that I did. As I was disassembling the clutch linkage, it literally fell apart in my hands. Whoever cobbled together the manual transmission swap, years ago, put the linkage together with bubblegum welds and bailing wire. I'm REALLY lucky it didn't fall apart while I was driving. In similar fashion, the fuel line started leaking just below the fuel tank as soon as I started to drain the fuel. Whoever installed the fuel line just barely tightened the fittings and they used non-fuel rated teflon tape. After it started leaking, I disssembled the fittings BY HAND! Some of this stuff was only held together by hopes and dreams. I feel like I've dodged a bullet (or two or three).

[SCOTI]

And the journey continues.....

[rbruno68]

Making good progress. I know the LS is the go to platform it seems, so I will be looking forward to see yours come together. All the electronics makes me a little nervous, but would like to learn more about swapping these into our trucks.

[JohnIL]

Originally Posted by rbruno68

Making good progress. I know the LS is the go to platform it seems, so I will be looking forward to see yours come together. All the electronics makes me a little nervous, but would like to learn more about swapping these into our trucks.

Bruno,
Thanks for tuning in. I'm not an LS swap expert, by any means. I've done it once before, in my son's '83 El Camino. I've done lots of old school small block engine swaps, but that was my first LS. I learned a lot from that swap and I have a decent idea of what to do this time around.

Knowing my limitations, I leaned a lot on the aftermarket. I'm doing the same with my C10. I'm starting with a junkyard "take out" drivetrain. It came with the ECU and the factory wiring harness. I sent the ECU out and the wiring harness out for reworking. You can do this work yourself, if you have the know-how. I don't, so I'm outsourcing it to the experts.

I'm doing the same with details like the engine mounts, transmission cross member, exhaust manifolds, etc. This can all be done relatively cheaply with combinations of junkyard parts, but I don't have the knowledge to know what parts will work together. So, instead, I'm buying LS swap parts from vendors who have done the research and development work to make all the parts work together.

It's not the cheapest way to do an engine swap, but it worked well on the El Camino project and I'm confident (mostly) that it will work out well in the C10 too. Stay tuned...

[rbruno68]

When the "rework" the harness, do they remove things you don't need? Does it just leave the electronics to run the motor?

[JohnIL]

Originally Posted by rbruno68

When the "rework" the harness, do they remove things you don't need? Does it just leave the electronics to run the motor?

I sent my factory harness to LSX Harness. They removed all of the unnecessary wiring, adding a stand-alone fuse block, and set up the harness to be connected to the vehicle. There's only 5 (I think) wires that need to be connected and they label them for you to make it easier. I haven't installed the harness yet, but it's very much like the aftermarket harness I used on the El Camino project.

The nice thing about LS wiring is that each connector is different. They can only plug in one way. For example, it would be almost impossible to connect the crank sensor wire to the cam sensor and vise versa. There are a lot of connectors, but it's difficult to mess the connections up.

The only challenging part is connecting those loose wires that go to the vehicle itself. Working from memory, so I may be missing something:
-Constant 12v from battery to power the ECU
-Keyed 12v (pink wire that used to go to the distributor)
-Starter signal wire (purple wire that used to go to the starter)
-Brake light switch to disengage the lock-up torque converter
-VSS - Vehicle Speed Sensor for speedometer

And, of course positive and negative battery wires.

It's really not as bad as that octopus of a wiring harness makes it look. If I can do it, anyone can!

John

[JohnIL]

Sorry, no pictures this time. Just some minor updates on the LS swap project and question for the experts here on the forum.

I have the engine bay mostly cleaned up. I've treated everything with Rust Convertor and I've painted the frame (from the firewall forward) and the engine side of the core support with Rust Encapsulator paint. Once all of that dries, I'll coat everything with an even coat of satin black.

While the paint was drying, I moved to the interior. I removed the bucket seats, then removed the in-cab fuel tank. I won't need it anymore because I've already installed an under-bed tank with an internal EFI fuel pump.

Now for my question. I had planned to remove the fuel tank mounts to clean up the area behind the seats, but it looks like the mounts are spot welded to the rear wall of the cab. Are the mounts structural? Do I need to leave them place to hold the cab together or can I safely cut the spot welds and remove the mounts?

John

[rbruno68]

Originally Posted by JohnIL

Sorry, no pictures this time. Just some minor updates on the LS swap project and question for the experts here on the forum.

I have the engine bay mostly cleaned up. I've treated everything with Rust Convertor and I've painted the frame (from the firewall forward) and the engine side of the core support with Rust Encapsulator paint. Once all of that dries, I'll coat everything with an even coat of satin black.

While the paint was drying, I moved to the interior. I removed the bucket seats, then removed the in-cab fuel tank. I won't need it anymore because I've already installed an under-bed tank with an internal EFI fuel pump.

Now for my question. I had planned to remove the fuel tank mounts to clean up the area behind the seats, but it looks like the mounts are spot welded to the rear wall of the cab. Are the mounts structural? Do I need to leave them place to hold the cab together or can I safely cut the spot welds and remove the mounts?

John

It is amazing how many wires they put in those harness and how few are actually need to run the motor. I will look forward to following your progress. I need to keep learning about these motors and come into the 21st century. Lol

As to the tank mounts. I believe they are structural. I only cut off the front part that angles up from the floor where the strap bolts. I didn't touch anything that actually attached to the floor or the back of the cab. One of may cab videos shows what I cut off.

[JohnIL]

Originally Posted by rbruno68

As to the tank mounts. I believe they are structural. I only cut off the front part that angles up from the floor where the strap bolts. I didn't touch anything that actually attached to the floor or the back of the cab. One of may cab videos shows what I cut off.

Bruno,
Thanks for the confirmation about the tank mounts. I was thinking the same thing about cutting off the front part that angles up. That would help tidy up the space a lot.

John

[JohnIL]

Since the seats were already out of the cab for the gas tank removal, on Saturday, I went ahead and peeled back the carpeting to uncover the shifter hole in the transmission tunnel. The truck left the factory with a "three on the tree" column shifter. So, the hole in the floor was cut when the previous owner installed the floor shifter for the Saginaw 4 speed. See the first picture below. Apparently, he didn't own an angle grinder because the hole looked like it had been chewed by a steel eating woodchuck. Would that make it a steel chuck? Anyway, now that I'm moving to an automatic with a column shifter, the hole needs to be filled back in.

I started the repair by cutting the hole to something resembling a rectangle. I cut and shaped a patch panel from 18ga sheet metal and welded it in place. Then, I ground the welds flat from both the top and bottom. The under side got a coat of rust converter, a coat of seam sealer, and a coat of rust encapsulator paint to seal everything up. The top side got it's own share of the rust converter and rust encapsulator paint treatment. With that, the interior went back to together.

None of this has very much to do with the LS swap, but this was my best opportunity to repair the transmission tunnel with no transmission in the way. There are more cab floor repairs to be done later on, but that will have to wait until swap is done and the truck is drivable again. Maybe next fall. When the interior comes back apart for rust repair, that will be a great opportunity to paint the interior sheet metal, lay down some sound proofing, thermal barrier, and fresh carpeting. Until then, the current interior will do for now.

Onward with the LS swap!

[JohnIL]

On Sunday afternoon, I climbed back into the engine bay cleanup. After a couple hours of masking, I coated the whole engine bay with satin black. I'm not thrilled with how the inner fenders turned out. There was enough scratches, surface rust, and layers of old paint to leave a rough texture. I'm not too concerned because a lot of the that real estate will be covered by the ECU, fuse block, relays, battery cables, etc. If the inner fenders annoy me enough, I may go back someday and sand them down, bodywork them, and give them a smooth finish. But, at least it's all a uniform color. That's good enough for now.

Enough messing around. Bring on the LS already!

[JohnIL]

In the immortal words of Neil Armstrong, "The eagle has landed!"

I hit a major milestone this weekend. The LS engine is officially in. It's still a long way from running and driving, but it's a step in the right direction.

First Attempt and Lessons Learned
In the past, I've always installed engines and transmissions separately, even if I was replacing both. But, I was able to pull the old small block and the manual 4-speed all at once, so I thought I would try to stab the LS and 4L60E in that way too. That was a mistake. The LS has a deeper oil pan than the small block and the 4L60E is a few inches longer than the 4-speed. So, my engine hoist wouldn't lift high enough and my engine tilt leveler wouldn't tilt down far enough. As a result, the oil pan scarred up the fresh paint on the core support and the tail shaft scarred up the fresh paint on the firewall. After a few choice words, I reversed gears and spend the evening repainting the firewall. I'll repaint the core support once the rest of the engine bay is back together. Lesson learned. For me, it's much easier to install the engine and transmission separately.

Second Attempt and Success!
I started on Saturday afternoon by separating the engine and transmission. Other than some stubborn alignment pins, that all went smoothly. Now, with the drive train in bite-sized pieces, the engine dropped right into place onto the BPR (Muscle Rods) engine mounts. The transmission fought a little harder, thanks to those stubborn alignment pins, but other than that, the transmission went right in too.

Transmission Crossmember
With the engine and transmission bolted together, the transmission crossmember was next. I can't say enough good things about the BPR crossmember. It's a stout piece with lots of adjustability and it all bolts together with no welding required. The hardest part is drilling four 3/8" holes through the frame rails.

Starting on the Details
Now that the drivetrain is bolted in, I spent Sunday afternoon starting on the long list of details.

Oil Pressure Sending Unit - I plan to install a Dakota Digital gauge cluster down the road. In the meantime, I connected the existing mechanical oil pressure gauge to an ICT Billet adapter that replaces the block off cover, just above the oil filter. That will let me keep an eye on oil pressure when the time comes for the first start up.

Transmission Dipstick - I had to reshape (crudely bend) the dipstick tube to clear the heater box. I'm not thrilled with the original dipstick tube. Bending the tube caused a couple of small dents and the tube has some rust spots. I'm leaning toward switching to an aftermarket dipstick instead.

Exhaust Manifolds - I'm using Patriot tubular manifolds. Other than being heavy and hard to handle, they install great. No clearance problems. They came with short "reducers" with O2 sensor bungs welded in. We used the same setup on the LS in my son's El Camino. This makes a great starting point for an exhaust system.

Engine Oil Dipstick - This tube needed to be bent to clear the heater box too. After reshaping, the dipstick is difficult to slide in and out of the tube. I may have to go aftermarket on this one too.

Now, I only have about 300 more details to work out. All in all, it was a good weekend.

[rbruno68]

Looks good. Making a lot of progress.

[JohnIL]

Progress on the truck was slow this week because of cold temperatures and family obligations. The one big item was the arrival of the new driveshaft. Details below.

One-Piece Driveshaft
Being a six-cylinder long bed, the truck left the factory with a spindly 2" two-piece driveshaft with a center carrier bearing. The new drivetrain has WAY more torque than the original and the new automatic transmission is a few inches longer than the old manual. Since I needed a new (or at least shortened) driveshaft anyway, I wanted to try to eliminate the carrier bearing in favor of a one-piece driveshaft. I contacted Soutwest Speed, in Fort Smith, Arkansas, and explained my situation. They said they could definitely make a suitable one-piece driveshaft, but it was going to have to be a larger diameter. When the new driveshaft arrived, I wasn't quite prepared. This thing is a beast! I'm going from a 2" two piece shaft to a 3 1/2" one piece shaft. They supplied the correct 1310 U-Joints and the correct 27 spline yoke with the new shaft. Because of the dramatically increased diameter, I had to remove the carrier bearing bracket at the top of the "driveshaft loop" in the center crossmember. It looks like there will be plenty of clearance, but I'll have to watch out of signs of rubbing on the loop.

See pictures below. The comparison to the original driveshaft is crazy.


Continuing with the Details

Battery Tray - The truck's original battery tray was in rough shape. It wasn't complete trash, but one corner had rotted away due to years of battery acid. I ordered an aftermarket replacement, but it wasn't usable. The stamping was so poor that none of the (7?) bolt holes lined up. Rather than cut up the new tray or drill a bunch of new holes in the core support, I repaired the orginal tray instead. I cut out the rot and welded in new steel. It's not perfect, but it's WAY better than the aftermaket garbage.

Oil Filter - The BRP Hot Rods oil pan I'm using was advertised to use a standard Delco pf46 oil filter. I tried a pf46, but the threaded hole in the filter was too small. After exchanging messages with BRP, we discovered thier documentation is incorrect. The pan uses a Delco pf46 with a larger thread size. For anyone using one of these pans (and for future me), the Wix equivelent is 57060XP. If you prefer a larger filter element, Wix 57045XP is the longer version of the same filter.

Coolant Temperature Sending Unit - Someday, I plan to install a Dakota Digital gauge cluster. In the meantime, I want a way to keep tabs on coolant temperature. I already had a mechanical temp gauge in the truck, I just needed a way to install the probe in the new LS engine. ICT Billet to the rescue. They make an adapter to thread a temp sending unit into the giant M28 coolant drain plug on the driver side of the block. Part# 551782-375. When you pull that big plug, have a bucket handy for the oncoming coolant shower. Other than that, the install was pretty straight forward.

[SCOTI]

Some nice parts & good info.

Did you just cut the best corner off the 'new' tray & splice it onto the old GM tray once the rot was clipped off?

[JohnIL]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Some nice parts & good info.

Did you just cut the best corner off the 'new' tray & splice it onto the old GM tray once the rot was clipped off?

Thanks Scoti.

I rebuilt the corner of the tray with a scrap of 16ga sheet steel. I didn't want to cut up the new tray, just in case I was able to return it. In the end, the vendor gave me a refund, but they didn't want the tray back. I feel like that says something about the quality (or lack there of) of the part.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by JohnIL

Thanks Scoti.

I rebuilt the corner of the tray with a scrap of 16ga sheet steel. I didn't want to cut up the new tray, just in case I was able to return it. In the end, the vendor gave me a refund, but they didn't want the tray back. I feel like that says something about the quality (or lack there of) of the part.

Agreed,
I had a similar experience w/a 88-98 Chevy truck front air dam through Summit. It didn't fit well to the OE bumper contours & only 3 of the 9 (?) holes lined up. They refunded the price (it was pretty cheap) & told me to just toss it which is exactly what I did.

[rbruno68]

Originally Posted by JohnIL

Thanks Scoti.

I rebuilt the corner of the tray with a scrap of 16ga sheet steel. I didn't want to cut up the new tray, just in case I was able to return it. In the end, the vendor gave me a refund, but they didn't want the tray back. I feel like that says something about the quality (or lack there of) of the part.

Good grief. To me, it says three things when they refund and don't want the part back.
1. They know it is not a quality part.
2. It is very cheap to make/import.
3. They mark these parts up so much that they make plenty of money on the ones that are not refunded or they make so much on the mark up for the ones that fit decently enough that people don't ask for a refund.

Either way, I just wish there were better aftermarket parts.

Glad yours worked out either way.

[JohnIL]

Originally Posted by rbruno68

Good grief. To me, it says three things when they refund and don't want the part back.
1. They know it is not a quality part.
2. It is very cheap to make/import.
3. They mark these parts up so much that they make plenty of money on the ones that are not refunded or they make so much on the mark up for the ones that fit decently enough that people don't ask for a refund.

Either way, I just wish there were better aftermarket parts.

Glad yours worked out either way.

I reinstalled the repaired original battery tray last night. It's definitely better quality than the aftermarket version. It should be good for another 60 years!