Anyone ever have a hard time converting a nice stock truck into their build?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by r8rs4lf

It looks like factory pieces can be pieced together through Classic Industries. Are you saying this is the better way to go?

What about leaving the leaf spring set up and adding Caltracs? Looking at some set ups online makes me wonder if they will hang too low. Any input?

CalTracs are for one purpose only..... Straight line acceleration from a leaf spring set-up. To get max effectiveness from them will require the right compound of tire (soft, sticky rubber) vs a typical street tire. Using them depends on what you're building. As far as 'hanging too low', vs what? You mention large diameter wheels so they add inches of clearance depending on the wheel OD. Since most/many of the vehicles that use them are sporting 15" sticky tires, I can't see them hanging lower than they will function.

Check this style of truck arm vs the CPP type.... https://tinworksfabrication.com/prod...y-truck/63-72/

[ullose272]

stock doesn't do it for me, all my vehicles have something done. and most everything is reversable.

[connorm]

Originally Posted by r8rs4lf

It looks like factory pieces can be pieced together through Classic Industries. Are you saying this is the better way to go?

What about leaving the leaf spring set up and adding Caltracs? Looking at some set ups online makes me wonder if they will hang too low. Any input?

I wouldn't shy away from tubular trailing arms, if that's the way that you want to go. Yes they will bind a little bit, but if you're going to be driving this truck in a sporty way it will act as a sway bar. For a street truck I think that you could go either way.

I also really don't mind lowering springs and good shocks. I have Ridetech adjustable shocks, and used to work there, and with being able to adjust the stiffness really lets you get the ride that you want.

[KQQL IT]

Originally Posted by r8rs4lf

Is that a Caltrac set up on your truck?

If so, any other pics or problems with the way it hangs low?

I bet its a sway bar. My Son built the exhaust for it.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by connorm

I wouldn't shy away from tubular trailing arms, if that's the way that you want to go. Yes they will bind a little bit, but if you're going to be driving this truck in a sporty way it will act as a sway bar. For a street truck I think that you could go either way.

I also really don't mind lowering springs and good shocks. I have Ridetech adjustable shocks, and used to work there, and with being able to adjust the stiffness really lets you get the ride that you want.

You can run a foot race in Chuck Taylors.... (factory truck arm set-up).
Now run the same race w/state of the art Reeboks but the shoelaces for both shoes are intertwined (tubular truck arms w/Poly bushings).
Run the race again w/each Reebok independently laced & see what the outcome is (tubular T/A w/a spherical joint).

The factory truck arm arrangement is like a big sway bar. It already has some bind but not so much that it doesn't prevent excess stress or wear on brackets, hardware, & the chassis.

A tubular arm is a solid, predictable suspension piece. A solid arm w/Poly bushings has more bind than the factory set-up. Bind is not your friend when it comes to: articulation of a suspension; ride quality (coil spring rear suspensions yield a better ride vs leafs because of less bind for these trucks), or if/when you push your truck to the limit on spirited drives (a binding suspension is less predictable).

Buy what you want. But.... If you're spending your hard-earned money to upgrade to a tubular arm, why not get one that utilizes a spherical bearing that allows bind free articulation?

[70STOVEBOLT]

I will ask a question. How long are you planning on keeping the truck? If you do modify it and then decide to sell it, you will have a limited potential buyers pool. Maybe not if you are in SoCal, but in a lot of other places, lowered trucks are not everyone’s cup of tea. Especially statically lowered trucks. Air ride is a different story. Just something to think about. IMO I would drive that truck in its current state any day and every day. Good luck whatever you decide, and as mentioned, please start a build thread so we can all follow your progress.

[theastronaut]

I had the same dilemma with my latest truck buy/build. I had been trying to buy this '66 for 10+ years and finally got it in early '22, but then it was too original to stray too far from stock. I ended up doing a mild drop, front sway bar, relocated the rear shocks, swapped in a NP440 4 speed overdrive but kept it column shift to preserve the original floor mat, added Borgeson quick ratio power steering, and I'm currently collecting parts to build a 327 to swap out the 250. It's all bolt on so any of it could be easily reversed if anyone ever wanted to but its more fun to drive now.


Some things I'd point out- stock rear trailing arms (if you swap to trailing arms) are totally adequate, I don't understand why they need to be "upgraded" on a street truck other than companies like to sell "upgrade" parts. SCOTI pointed out why the stock arms work and poly bushed tubular arms don't. Tubular front arms also don't do any thing to change suspension geometry for the better since none of the pivot points are moved, all they can do is add more caster but you can do that with the stock lower control arm shaft for free by redrilling the locating hole. Again, parts company like to sell parts, and the stock ones are totally adequate unless you're on a track with slick tires looking for better lap times. Most people think stiff = sporty, and that's just plain wrong. You need articulation and well-damped compliance to keep the tires in contact with the road, just being stiff makes the tires skip around over road imperfections and makes it ride terrible. The generic "upgrade" parts make the truck feel stiffer which to most people feels "sporty" but it won't actually go around corners as fast as it should if it's just stiffer/less compliant. Tubular trailing arms with poly bushings is a great example of an "upgrade" that isn't better, it's actually worse.


*Good* shock damping makes the biggest difference in ride quality and handling. Spend your money here and you'll see the biggest gains in how it drives and handles. Double adjustable shocks where you can dial in the compression and rebound settings separately aren't cheap but if you save money from not buying unnecessary tubular arms then you'll still be money ahead and have a better driving truck. If lowering it, using a relocation kit to get the shocks mounted in the correct orientation so that they have the most leverage/mechanical advantage on the wheel will make them more effective at controlling wheel and body motion. This will take out most of the body roll, to the point that you might not even need or want sway bars. It will ride better without sway bars, and body roll doesn't mean that it handles bad- my autocross car pulls 1.4g and regularly places in the top ten at events, but just has the stock skinny front bar and no rear bar, and easily has the most body roll of any car at the event. Shock tuning is what makes it work as well as it does.

[r8rs4lf]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Check this style of truck arm vs the CPP type.... https://tinworksfabrication.com/prod...y-truck/63-72/

They make some nice stuff!

Originally Posted by 70STOVEBOLT

I will ask a question. How long are you planning on keeping the truck? If you do modify it and then decide to sell it, you will have a limited potential buyers pool. Maybe not if you are in SoCal, but in a lot of other places, lowered trucks are not everyone’s cup of tea. Especially statically lowered trucks. Air ride is a different story. Just something to think about. IMO I would drive that truck in its current state any day and every day. Good luck whatever you decide, and as mentioned, please start a build thread so we can all follow your progress.

I don't plan on selling the truck, that's why I want to do it right the first time around.

[KQQL IT]

Ever considered a chassis swap.

Leave the truck alone and set it on big brake modern handling modern power and transmission?

[r8rs4lf]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Buy what you want. But.... If you're spending your hard-earned money to upgrade to a tubular arm, why not get one that utilizes a spherical bearing that allows bind free articulation?

Understood!

Would you stay with the leaf spring set up or would you swap to trailing arms? I will not be towing or hauling, this will be a street truck just for cruising. No track days, etc.

Originally Posted by theastronaut

Some things I'd point out- stock rear trailing arms (if you swap to trailing arms) are totally adequate, I don't understand why they need to be "upgraded" on a street truck other than companies like to sell "upgrade" parts. SCOTI pointed out why the stock arms work and poly bushed tubular arms don't. Tubular front arms also don't do any thing to change suspension geometry for the better since none of the pivot points are moved, all they can do is add more caster but you can do that with the stock lower control arm shaft for free by redrilling the locating hole. Again, parts company like to sell parts, and the stock ones are totally adequate unless you're on a track with slick tires looking for better lap times. Most people think stiff = sporty, and that's just plain wrong. You need articulation and well-damped compliance to keep the tires in contact with the road, just being stiff makes the tires skip around over road imperfections and makes it ride terrible. The generic "upgrade" parts make the truck feel stiffer which to most people feels "sporty" but it won't actually go around corners as fast as it should if it's just stiffer/less compliant. Tubular trailing arms with poly bushings is a great example of an "upgrade" that isn't better, it's actually worse.


*Good* shock damping makes the biggest difference in ride quality and handling. Spend your money here and you'll see the biggest gains in how it drives and handles. Double adjustable shocks where you can dial in the compression and rebound settings separately aren't cheap but if you save money from not buying unnecessary tubular arms then you'll still be money ahead and have a better driving truck. If lowering it, using a relocation kit to get the shocks mounted in the correct orientation so that they have the most leverage/mechanical advantage on the wheel will make them more effective at controlling wheel and body motion. This will take out most of the body roll, to the point that you might not even need or want sway bars. It will ride better without sway bars, and body roll doesn't mean that it handles bad- my autocross car pulls 1.4g and regularly places in the top ten at events, but just has the stock skinny front bar and no rear bar, and easily has the most body roll of any car at the event. Shock tuning is what makes it work as well as it does.

That's a nice ride!

From what I understand a trailing arm suspension rides better than a leaf correct? Are they far apart as far as ride quality?

The only reason why we are talking about trailing arms is because the guy I spoke with at CPP brought it up so I asked here. I only called to order the drop leafs.

Now if I can get a similar ride with my leaf spring set up, I'll do that and spend the money elsewhere. Can I just buy rear drop leaf springs and spend the money on shocks? Will that get me close or should I just do the trailing arm swap?

[r8rs4lf]

Originally Posted by KQQL IT

Ever considered a chassis swap.

Leave the truck alone and set it on big brake modern handling modern power and transmission?

I've thought about it, but never really considered it.

If I can make what I have work, that's the way I'd rather go.

I have a leaf spring set up. If the ride quality going with a trailing arm set up is worth the swap, I don't mind doing it. That Tinworks company makes some really nice stuff and I wouldn't have a problem ordering their parts. Obviously staying with the current set up will save me money where I can direct funds somewhere else on the truck, but I want to do this right the first time.

Like I said, no track days, just a cruiser, but eventually a bigger powered V8 will be swapped in.

[Already Gone]

Lots of ideas and suggestions for you and when I saw your post from this morning where you said you plan on keeping the truck which is an important decision. Your truck like mine was is an unmolested survivor so to me that's a clean slate. I bought mine in 2014 and it too was an unmolested survivor with excellent rust free bones. I slowly got it to where it is today thinking and changing my mind about what I wanted to do as I went. I didn't want to detract from the classic look of the truck but wanted it handle and be reliable. PIcture of me with the truck is from the day I picked it up. It had a bench plaid seat, working factory A/C and a 350/350 with 3:73 gears. It now has buckets & console, a 700R4 trans with the 3:73's and a rebuilt 400 small block engine with the factory working A/C intact. Front suspension is all brand new and I lowered it a bit and have front & rear sway bars. I've done a lot more than the mentioned things but I kept the stock original look, I guess except for the slighty lowered look, but still have the original parts if I want to go back to stock height. My suggeston is take your time and get to know and enjoy the truck and decide wha tyou want as you go.

[jocko]

I'm late to the party, but sharing just a couple personal thoughts, and only the first one is what matters (and I realize you may have aready bought your lowering parts):

1) it's your truck, what we may say shouldn't sway your decision - enjoy it!

2) forget #1 and either do:
a) full resto, or
b) absolutely nothing - except maintenance and enjoy!

SWB highlanders are extremely rare - if you do anything other than 2a) or 2b), I'd submit it will lose value and/or hurt your resale hopes (either $ or buyer pool).
I've bought many "I'll never sell this one" trucks, and I only have two of them left..

As for the "it's reversible" mods crowd, yes I agree that's a good thing, but it's got to be pretty easily reversible for me when I'm shopping or it's not worth it - because I'd almost always intend to reverse personal mods back to stock. Reversible mods impose a labor tax on prospective buyers, so even if it doesn't reduce the potential sale price, it definitely shrinks the potential buyer pool. In other words, if a potential buyer isn't into lowered trucks, then that buyer probably doesn't want to spend time undoing the seller's lowering job - to get back to an original swb Highlander rare gem status.

Again, this is just my 2 cents, so please refer to note #1 (and enjoy that awesome truck no matter what direction you go - love that thing, really nice!)
AND, I really like Greg's advice above - enjoy this truck as it is for a bit before ripping it apart (you might find you don't want to. )

[PowerdbyChevy79]

Here's my .02.. go with a 4/6 drop... i would convert the rear over to trailing arms/coil springs. You will get a smoother ride and dropping it wont be such a hassle...
Definitely go with a 700.. some of the best money you will spend will be on an OD trans...and then just drive that sucker...

[vics stuff]

I am in the same boat with my all original 72 2WD short bed chevy. I have another truck that I think I will do all my mods to it instead of messing with my survivor truck
Vic

[r8rs4lf]

Originally Posted by Already Gone

My suggeston is take your time and get to know and enjoy the truck and decide what you want as you go.

Originally Posted by jocko

SWB highlanders are extremely rare -

As for the "it's reversible" mods crowd, yes I agree that's a good thing, but it's got to be pretty easily reversible for me when I'm shopping or it's not worth it - because I'd almost always intend to reverse personal mods back to stock. Reversible mods impose a labor tax on prospective buyers, so even if it doesn't reduce the potential sale price, it definitely shrinks the potential buyer pool. In other words, if a potential buyer isn't into lowered trucks, then that buyer probably doesn't want to spend time undoing the seller's lowering job - to get back to an original swb Highlander rare gem status.

I really like Greg's advice above - enjoy this truck as it is for a bit before ripping it apart (you might find you don't want to. )

That's exactly where I'm at right now. I'm taking care of loose ends and not taking a huge jump by purchasing the big parts. I don't plan on purchasing a drop until I feel like I've done enough research and in that time I may feel like I don't want to mess with it and leave it stock.

My solid plans as of right now is to rebuild the entire front end, get the heater running and add thicker whitewalls. Even though the Highlander interior isn't visually pleasing to me, I do plan on getting the plaid back in there along with the parchment door panels and the black dash pad.

As far as making it so everything I do is reversible, honestly I don't think I would ever revert back once I do what I initially planned. It sounds good, but I doubt once the truck is done exactly how I want it I would ever go back. I understand this truck is a somewhat special truck because of the Highlander code so that's part of the reason why I feel like I wouldn't ever sell it. Besides that it's in super nice shape and I think I would have a hard time locating another.

Originally Posted by PowerdbyChevy79

Here's my .02.. go with a 4/6 drop... i would convert the rear over to trailing arms/coil springs. You will get a smoother ride and dropping it wont be such a hassle...
Definitely go with a 700.. some of the best money you will spend will be on an OD trans...and then just drive that sucker...

I don't think I'm going to change over to trailing arms as my SPID has the G70 code for a rear leaf spring suspension. Now the 700 would definitely be a nice upgrade and am considering that. Wasn't there something out there that could be added to a TH350 to give it overdrive? I believe it was made by Gear Vendor? I remember that from that show "Trucks" where they built up Copperhead.

Originally Posted by vics stuff

I am in the same boat with my all original 72 2WD short bed chevy. I have another truck that I think I will do all my mods to it instead of messing with my survivor truck
Vic

Nice truck! Nice to have options.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by r8rs4lf

Understood!

Would you stay with the leaf spring set up or would you swap to trailing arms? I will not be towing or hauling, this will be a street truck just for cruising. No track days, etc.



That's a nice ride!

From what I understand a trailing arm suspension rides better than a leaf correct? Are they far apart as far as ride quality?

The only reason why we are talking about trailing arms is because the guy I spoke with at CPP brought it up so I asked here. I only called to order the drop leafs.

Now if I can get a similar ride with my leaf spring set up, I'll do that and spend the money elsewhere. Can I just buy rear drop leaf springs and spend the money on shocks? Will that get me close or should I just do the trailing arm swap?

Keeping the leaf set-up = keeping it simple but a coil set-up would provide a better ride quality (especially true depending on the number of leafs). * My 1-ton CC Squarebody dually w/a 4-bar set-up w/bags rides much better than my previous leaf spring C10*.

[connorm]

Originally Posted by r8rs4lf

That's exactly where I'm at right now. I'm taking care of loose ends and not taking a huge jump by purchasing the big parts. I don't plan on purchasing a drop until I feel like I've done enough research and in that time I may feel like I don't want to mess with it and leave it stock.

My solid plans as of right now is to rebuild the entire front end, get the heater running and add thicker whitewalls. Even though the Highlander interior isn't visually pleasing to me, I do plan on getting the plaid back in there along with the parchment door panels and the black dash pad.

As far as making it so everything I do is reversible, honestly I don't think I would ever revert back once I do what I initially planned. It sounds good, but I doubt once the truck is done exactly how I want it I would ever go back. I understand this truck is a somewhat special truck because of the Highlander code so that's part of the reason why I feel like I wouldn't ever sell it. Besides that it's in super nice shape and I think I would have a hard time locating another.





I don't think I'm going to change over to trailing arms as my SPID has the G70 code for a rear leaf spring suspension. Now the 700 would definitely be a nice upgrade and am considering that. Wasn't there something out there that could be added to a TH350 to give it overdrive? I believe it was made by Gear Vendor? I remember that from that show "Trucks" where they built up Copperhead.



Nice truck! Nice to have options.

Gear vendors has an add on overdrive. It is a fairly bulletproof electronically controlled overdrive. This will give you 1st gear, 2nd gear, 2nd gear overdrive, 3rd gear and 3rd gear overdrive (I believe that they generally don't do a 1st gear overdrive option). These overdrive units are about $3,200 and that's just buying the unit. It's a very unique and interesting way to add overdrive but it is overlooked a lot of times due to price. If you are crafty enough I would think that you could get a 700r4 in your truck and driving for less than the cost of just a gear vendors.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by connorm

Gear vendors has an add on overdrive. It is a fairly bulletproof electronically controlled overdrive. This will give you 1st gear, 2nd gear, 2nd gear overdrive, 3rd gear and 3rd gear overdrive (I believe that they generally don't do a 1st gear overdrive option). These overdrive units are about $3,200 and that's just buying the unit. It's a very unique and interesting way to add overdrive but it is overlooked a lot of times due to price. If you are crafty enough I would think that you could get a 700r4 in your truck and driving for less than the cost of just a gear vendors.

A GV unit doesn't know what gear it is in; it's either engaged or not. Any gear other than reverse can be 'over-driven'. Even OD on later transmissions (700r4/200-4r/4l60e/4l80e) can become double OD set-ups. One would need to math-out the numbers & engine/chassis combo to do a dbl-OD.

I have a mechanical OD under my Model-A behind its rebuilt original non-synchronized 3spd (Mitchell OD). It's similar to the early Volvo OD units. I can split 1st, 2nd, & 3rd only mine is a manually shifted set-up. It takes some skill to do things seamlessly w/2x shifters. I'm not sure how quickly the electronics work on the GV unit as far as using it to split every gear.

[jocko]

Recommend confirm your rear gear ratio - you mentioned earlier you thought it was a 3.08. If it is, you may not need or want an o/d trans or gv o/d unit. While the added grunt in 1st gear with a 700R4 would be nice, the highway rpm could get pretty low, especially with the 700R4 (most amount of overdrive, 30%). Here are some numbers to consider (I totally guessed your tire size as 225/75/15 and made calculations with a 28.5" tire, so this won't be spot on, but it will give you the relative benefits/drawbacks. Also note the chart does not show the gv gear-splitting #s in between 1-2, 2-3, just the 3rd gear o/d since that's how most folks tend to drive with a gv o/d; it has an automatic mode that essentially provides 3rd gear o/d only, so it behaves kinda like an o/d trans - but gear splitting is something you can do also as desired).

Bottom line, overdrives are great, but there's a reason GM tended to couple them to 3.73 gears in half tons. Just food for thought as you figure out where you want to spend you $. If I had a 3.08 and $ were limited, I'd probably not splurge on an o/d trans or gv o/d. On the other hand, if $ weren't a concern, a 700R4 with 3.73s would be just about perfect for a daily driver.

[connorm]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

A GV unit doesn't know what gear it is in; it's either engaged or not. Any gear other than reverse can be 'over-driven'. Even OD on later transmissions (700r4/200-4r/4l60e/4l80e) can become double OD set-ups. One would need to math-out the numbers & engine/chassis combo to do a dbl-OD.

I have a mechanical OD under my Model-A behind its rebuilt original non-synchronized 3spd (Mitchell OD). It's similar to the early Volvo OD units. I can split 1st, 2nd, & 3rd only mine is a manually shifted set-up. It takes some skill to do things seamlessly w/2x shifters. I'm not sure how quickly the electronics work on the GV unit as far as using it to split every gear.

Looking at their website you can set limits for when you want overdrive to be activated. The example they use is overdrive can only be used at over 47 mph.

https://gearvendors.com/index.html/hrgm3s.html

I have a Borg Warner overdrive in my 53 Mercury. Its an early mechanical/electrical overdrive that generally only works in 2nd and 3rd. And it's the same unit that came in our trucks. I haven't gotten a chance to mess with those Mitchell or Columbia overdrives. They seem like they could be interesting and fun to mess with

[jocko]

Originally Posted by connorm

The example they use is overdrive can only be used at over 47 mph.

That is the optional setting I mention above that allows it to behave essentially as the overdrive gear for the transmission rather than as a gear splitter. The BW o/d you mentioned sounds like a fun piece of gear!

[r8rs4lf]

Originally Posted by connorm

Gear vendors has an add on overdrive. It is a fairly bulletproof electronically controlled overdrive. This will give you 1st gear, 2nd gear, 2nd gear overdrive, 3rd gear and 3rd gear overdrive (I believe that they generally don't do a 1st gear overdrive option). These overdrive units are about $3,200 and that's just buying the unit. It's a very unique and interesting way to add overdrive but it is overlooked a lot of times due to price. If you are crafty enough I would think that you could get a 700r4 in your truck and driving for less than the cost of just a gear vendors.

I am giving the GV a serious thought. Is it just a straight bolt on besides having to shorten the driveshaft? Is there some type of crossmember needed?

Originally Posted by jocko

Recommend confirm your rear gear ratio - you mentioned earlier you thought it was a 3.08. If it is, you may not need or want an o/d trans or gv o/d unit. While the added grunt in 1st gear with a 700R4 would be nice, the highway rpm could get pretty low, especially with the 700R4 (most amount of overdrive, 30%). Here are some numbers to consider (I totally guessed your tire size as 225/75/15 and made calculations with a 28.5" tire, so this won't be spot on, but it will give you the relative benefits/drawbacks. Also note the chart does not show the gv gear-splitting #s in between 1-2, 2-3, just the 3rd gear o/d since that's how most folks tend to drive with a gv o/d; it has an automatic mode that essentially provides 3rd gear o/d only, so it behaves kinda like an o/d trans - but gear splitting is something you can do also as desired).

Bottom line, overdrives are great, but there's a reason GM tended to couple them to 3.73 gears in half tons. Just food for thought as you figure out where you want to spend you $. If I had a 3.08 and $ were limited, I'd probably not splurge on an o/d trans or gv o/d. On the other hand, if $ weren't a concern, a 700R4 with 3.73s would be just about perfect for a daily driver.

My plan is to get rid of the pegleg and add a limited slip which wouldn't be a big deal swapping out gears at the same time. I just need to confirm that I have the 3.08's. If the GV unit is a bolt on thing then I will seriously consider adding that.

I went ahead and ordered my Coker WW's today. Went with 235/75/15. Should be here in a few days. I'll get them balanced and mounted and from there I'll make the decision on a drop.

[r8rs4lf]

Went ahead and tried my hand at ChatGpt

First is how it sits currently.

Second is a 3/5. Looks more like a 5/7

Third and the one I'm liking the most is a 2.5/4.

2.5 spindles and 4" leaves. I'm sure this is not accurate, but it looks good.

[jocko]

I may have missed it, but didn't see your SPID in this thread (maybe it's somewhere else). Am curious whether your truck was originally a custom two tone - like a 558 paint RPO? (asking because I see the paint divider trim, which doesn't really mean it was custom two tone, could have been conventional white too, but if it were a 558 Highlander swb, aye caramba batman, that's a nice combo. Cool truck no matter what the paint was).