NV4500 swap is underway

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by 6thcav

i have a 72 k10 i want to put an nv4500 behind a big block chevy 396 is it possible

Yep, Chevrolet has only used the same bell housing pattern on their engines for the last 60 some years.

[6thcav]

would i use a bell of a 90's chevy 350 for the bolt pattern on the nv4500

[Adam5432002]

TAg for use soon.

[Critter]

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

Yep, Chevrolet has only used the same bell housing pattern on their engines for the last 60 some years.

Come on Larry, you know that's not exactly correct. They overlap but they are not completely "the same"

Originally Posted by 6thcav

would i use a bell of a 90's chevy 350 for the bolt pattern on the nv4500

You would have to use a bell housing off of a 93+ nv4500 that was behind a 350 or 454 (i'm not sure about the 6.5 diesels but probably the same also). There were a lot of sm456 trannies in the 3/4 - 1 tons from 88-92 that won't bolt up to the nv4500. You might already know that, just making sure.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by Critter

Come on Larry, you know that's not exactly correct. They overlap but they are not completely "the same"




You would have to use a bell housing off of a 93+ nv4500 that was behind a 350 or 454 (i'm not sure about the 6.5 diesels but probably the same also). There were a lot of sm456 trannies in the 3/4 - 1 tons from 88-92 that won't bolt up to the nv4500. You might already know that, just making sure.

Yeah, but I meant bell housing mating shape between the engine and trans. You could take the NV3500 in your picture and bolt it on to the back of a 1955 265 V8 if you wanted. Obviously, they used many different actual bellhousings over the years depending on transmissions but the engine mating shape never changed.

[Critter]

Your right, I was just giving you a hard time mainly. That's why I used the word "overlap". However, I have had people tell me that my bell housing pictured above IS NOT for a chevy after they see that bolt hole at the top. Guys that are just unfamiliar with the LS engines.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by Critter

Your right, I was just giving you a hard time mainly. That's why I used the word "overlap". However, I have had people tell me that my bell housing pictured above IS NOT for a chevy after they see that bolt hole at the top. Guys that are just unfamiliar with the LS engines.

That is funny. Odd about that top center bolt, as that does come up as a conversation piece from time to time. Chevrolet used it on old engines back in the 50’s then stopped casting it in engines for like 40+ years until the late 90’s. Kind of like how the LS engines does not cast bolt provisions on the passenger’s side (1 o’clock position) of the LS engines. They still bolt together the same though where old engines can be mated to new transmissions or vice versa. Chevrolet has been consistent like that.

[bakerboys]

I just acquired a 1983 k10 with a 350 and a 3 speed with a.granny gear it is strong but. It keeps popping out of granny gear. I was playing with it in the yard and noticed it won't hardly go in gear or stay in gear. Let me ask you. How hard would it.be to switch to a 350 turbo or.700 r4 this.truck is for my son. So a automatic might be better for him
I hope this is not what they call hijacking your thread but. I thought.you might give me a clear answer thanks
Posted via Mobile Device

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by bakerboys

I just acquired a 1983 k10 with a 350 and a 3 speed with a.granny gear it is strong but. It keeps popping out of granny gear. I was playing with it in the yard and noticed it won't hardly go in gear or stay in gear. Let me ask you. How hard would it.be to switch to a 350 turbo or.700 r4 this.truck is for my son. So a automatic might be better for him
I hope this is not what they call hijacking your thread but. I thought.you might give me a clear answer thanks
Posted via Mobile Device

Yeah, this is pretty much a highjack. This thread is more about swapping in a NV4500 manual trans, not a 700R4 automatic. There are lots of threads on 700R4 swaps elsewhere though. Do a quick search and you should find some helpful threads

[Mucknorris]

Awesome job! I am wanting to do this to my 71 K10. Currently running sm465, but I ran across a thread about having to have a vehicle speed sensor and was wondering if you installed something to that effect to make it run right or if you were able to run the speedo cable to the transfer case without any issues.

[Critter]

Larry, I went back and reread this and didn't see an answer to the question I'm about to ask...did you consider a ZF6 manual tranny at any time? If so, was price a deciding factor or do you simply like nv4500s that much more?

[DirtyLarry]

Muckmorris,

I am not running any kind of speed sensor. Just the stock speedo cable from the NP205 tcase to the speedo head.

Critter,

Nah, I never considered a ZF S6-650. I have one of those behind an 8.1L in my 2500HD and not real fond of it. It is one awkward shifting transmission. Have you ever driven one? The NV4500 is so much nicer shifting. Aside from that, I don’t think it would fit without a body lift or significant firewall and trans tunnel work. The ZF is HUGE but is probably a much stronger trans than a NV4500. I haven't heard of any ZF's with OD gear set issues or anything else that the NV4500 are famious for

[Critter]

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

Critter,

Nah, I never considered a ZF S6-650. I have one of those behind an 8.1L in my 2500HD and not real fond of it. It is one awkward shifting transmission. Have you ever driven one? The NV4500 is so much nicer shifting. Aside from that, I don’t think it would fit without a body lift or significant firewall and trans tunnel work. The ZF is HUGE but is probably a much stronger trans than a NV4500. I haven't heard of any ZF's with OD gear set issues or anything else that the NV4500 are famious for

I have driven the Ford version but never the Duramax or 8.1 Version. That's somewhat why I was asking, I know your are an 8.1 guy so I figured you were familiar with them. I'm a big fan of the NV4500 also, I'll just stick with them. The 5 trucks I've had with them so far have treated me right.

[Mucknorris]

thanks for the feedback Dirty larry

[MalibuSSwagon]

Hey Larry,

What bellhousing did you end up using? I scanned the thread but didn't see where you mentioned this. I just picked up an NV4500 this afternoon for my C/10 but it didn't come with a bell, I still think it was a deal.

[Mr. 250r]

Quick question for you larry since you have experience with the gm zf 650, have you ever driven the dodge 6spd behind the cummins and if so which do you think is a better shifting tranny or has better driveablility? I had an early 24v cummins 2wd 6spd i got dirt cheap as a tow truck then drove a 12v 5spd and absolutely hated it the wide ratio shift is so annoying i felt like my arm was fully extended in 5th. I was also interested in how different the dodge and gm 5spd shift patterns are unless there the same

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by MalibuSSwagon

Hey Larry,

What bellhousing did you end up using? I scanned the thread but didn't see where you mentioned this. I just picked up an NV4500 this afternoon for my C/10 but it didn't come with a bell, I still think it was a deal.

Yeah, lots of stuff to sort through in this thread. I used the Advance Adapters 712576 bellhousing ($366 @ Summit Racing) along with their 715535 hydro clutch slave cylinder bracket. These goods were part of kit 27-0031.

Originally Posted by Mr. 250r

Quick question for you larry since you have experience with the gm zf 650, have you ever driven the dodge 6spd behind the cummins and if so which do you think is a better shifting tranny or has better driveablility? I had an early 24v cummins 2wd 6spd i got dirt cheap as a tow truck then drove a 12v 5spd and absolutely hated it the wide ratio shift is so annoying i felt like my arm was fully extended in 5th. I was also interested in how different the dodge and gm 5spd shift patterns are unless there the same

Yeah, I’ve driven a 6 speed behind a Cummins but it was an early NV5600, not the G56 Dodge is using these days. It was my buddy’s truck that lives in California. I didn’t get to drive it very far as I was helping him shuttle cars after he moved but I liked it much better than I like my ZF S6-650. The NV5600 shift pattern just seemed “right” and the throw felt predictable. The ZF in my Silverado is a miserably awkward and clunky shifting German dump truck pile of aluminum crap with reverse being in a very stupid spot towards your right leg and up, which can easily be confused for 1st gear when taking off from stop. I drove this truck off the lot brand new 11 years ago this month and still cannot get used to how awkward the ZF shifts. The pizz poor clutch geometry in the GMT800 trucks doesn’t help much either. I hate it!

Regarding the 5 speeds, sounds like the 12v 5speed you drove was an old Getrag or an early NV4500 with the first generation trans cover and shift tower. Those did have a large throw to poke them up into 5th gear. The later (after 1994 or 1995) got a tighter shift pattern. I don’t think what you described is a GM vs. Dodge trans versions, just more of the early vs. late transmission versions. There are definitely more people round here that know NV4500’s better than I do to know for sure.

I will say this though, of all the truck type manual transmissions I’ve driven the NV4500 is by far my favorite. It is not a sports car transmission, but compared to a SM465, ZF S6-650, NV5600 the NV4500 might as well be a sports car transmission. I would love to drive a G56 in a later model Dodge to see what those are all about.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

1990 Suburban cluster

Ah, I noticed the other day that it has almost been 10,000 miles since the NV4500 swap was complete. These miles aren’t cruising around town miles but traveling on off-road adventure trips around Arizona, Utah and fishing trips to the local mountains. With almost 10K on it, it still works just as nice as it did right after the swap in March of 2011. I still love it!

[Mr. 250r]

I can't remember which 12v it was but i thought it was the last i think 2 years of them and i towed my mud truck with it which pulled it fine but i just could never get use to that shift pattern and always wondered about the ZF because i thought a mud truck with a 6spd would be something fun but i want a fast shifting one like a t56 or a clutchless style shift like a lenco or jerico but i am not sure how well car ratio'd trannys would transfer into a 4wd truck

[MalibuSSwagon]

Ouch, it looks nice but 366 is a little more than I paid for the trans! I think I'll have to see if the guy still has the bellhousing from the diesel.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by MalibuSSwagon

Ouch, it looks nice but 366 is a little more than I paid for the trans! I think I'll have to see if the guy still has the bellhousing from the diesel.

Yeah, the AA pieces are not cheap. Outside of an AA bell housing you have two options:

1992-1995ish bell with the external slave cylinder. The downside is the slave falls on the passenger’s side which can cause interference issues depending on your exhaust configuration (with yours being a 2wd you wouldn’t need to worry about the front driveshaft interference). You would also need a 1992-1995 design clutch master cylinder along with the hose.

1996-2006 bell housing with an internal slave/release bearing assembly. These don’t work well in older trucks as the trans and bellhousing assembly must be stuffed into the truck in one piece. This is an issue being there isn’t room to stuff NV4500 with the bell attached into the truck in one piece unless the engine is out where the trans can be installed through the front then install the engine.

For these reasons is why I went the AA bellhousing. With yours being a C10, a NV3500 would probably be a better trans to use but the bell is part of the transmission assembly where it too can be a hassle to stuff up into an old truck due to clearance. Once it is in there, it is fine….getting it in there is the hard part.

[SunSoaked]

Originally Posted by DirtyLarry

Yeah, the AA pieces are not cheap. Outside of an AA bell housing you have two options:

1992-1995ish bell with the external slave cylinder. The downside is the slave falls on the passenger’s side which can cause interference issues depending on your exhaust configuration (with yours being a 2wd you wouldn’t need to worry about the front driveshaft interference). You would also need a 1992-1995 design clutch master cylinder along with the hose.

1996-2006 bell housing with an internal slave/release bearing assembly. These don’t work well in older trucks as the trans and bellhousing assembly must be stuffed into the truck in one piece. This is an issue being there isn’t room to stuff NV4500 with the bell attached into the truck in one piece unless the engine is out where the trans can be installed through the front then install the engine.

For these reasons is why I went the AA bellhousing. With yours being a C10, a NV3500 would probably be a better trans to use but the bell is part of the transmission assembly where it too can be a hassle to stuff up into an old truck due to clearance. Once it is in there, it is fine….getting it in there is the hard part.

The knowledge contained within your noodle amazes me

[martindc1]

Larry, with that AA bellhousing, do you have the option of going with mechanical clutch linkage? What are the advantages of a hydraulic clutch anyway?

Also, I'm surprised to hear about your issues with the ZF6. My work truck is an 04 Duramax 2500 HD with a ZF6 and I love it. If I read your posts correctly, you start out in 1st? I never do, I start out in 2nd as 1st is 5.79 or so. So shifting 2-6 is just like driving a regular 5 speed. It is actually the same shift pattern as my 02 Jetta, with the exception of the Jetta missing creeper gear. I wasn't ever thrown too far off by the reverse location of the ZF6 either as I was used to reverse being to the left on my old sm420.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by martindc1

Larry, with that AA bellhousing, do you have the option of going with mechanical clutch linkage? What are the advantages of a hydraulic clutch anyway?

Also, I'm surprised to hear about your issues with the ZF6. My work truck is an 04 Duramax 2500 HD with a ZF6 and I love it. If I read your posts correctly, you start out in 1st? I never do, I start out in 2nd as 1st is 5.79 or so. So shifting 2-6 is just like driving a regular 5 speed. It is actually the same shift pattern as my 02 Jetta, with the exception of the Jetta missing creeper gear. I wasn't ever thrown too far off by the reverse location of the ZF6 either as I was used to reverse being to the left on my old sm420.

Yes, you can use a mechanical clutch with the AA bellhousing, or add the bracket for hydraulic like I did. The bell works with both. The advantage of a hydraulic clutch is that it is easier to step on and they clutch works flawlessly even when the frame is all twisted up while off-roading.

I don’t have issues with the ZF in the Silverado, I just don’t like it. The shift pattern is clumsy and awkward plus the clutch engagement isn’t as smooth as the old trucks. The clutch engagement isn’t the ZF’s fault but more of GM’s pizz poor clutch design on the GMT800 trucks. The clutch works like an on and off switch, with no smooth way to launch the ZF truck. I bought the truck brand new and it has been like this since day 1. The dealer even put a new clutch and slave while it was in warranty to no avail.

I don’t start off in granny gear either. I start off in what you are calling second. The only time I use granny gear (1st on the knob) is when towing very heavy loads or the need to go super slow. One thing I really hate about the ZF is how easy it is to stick in reverse when you are aiming for 1st (second if you go by the letters on the knob) as you roll up to a stop sign. I’ve surprised a few people taking off from a stop in reverse instead of 1st.

Between the crappy clutch engagement and the awkward shift pattern, I don't care for the ZF in the Silvy. I don't drive it much anyway. In 11 years of ownership it only has 55K miles. I prefer a NV4500 or NV5600 any day over the ZF S6-650

[martindc1]

Hmm according to the wikipedia article about the zf6, there were some revisions made for the GM version in 2001. Maybe yours was a transition model? On mine there almost feels like a lockout that keeps me from putting it into reverse as opposed to 2nd.

I know what you are saying about the clutch though, I would describe mine as "grabby." That Duramax that I don't need to give it any foot feed when starting from a stop, but if I do, its not smooth at all.