Stepped control arms

[Hottrucks]

ok guys looking for some insight?? I bagged the front of my truck with less than desireable results (not low enough) so it looks like back to the cutting and welding I think I will start with stepping the the lower A arm..so heres the question how much (15" wheels) I was thinking 1 1/2" I want to make it so there is some adjustment in my camber so should I take some out ( how much??) of the lower control arm...I also plan on making the cut in the top to elimnate some of the ball joint bind....and.... If that doesn't get it low enough I want to build in the lower cup for the air bag ( but I want to check scrubline with the stepped arms first)

Help outI would like to do this in one pass if I can

thanx
Jeff

[williej45]

I stepped mine 1 1/2 inches and removed about 1/4 from it's length. the camber is pretty close but I am WAYYYYYYY below scrubline.

[MXmaniac]

^^ That's not good news. What springs are you using, and what part of the LCA is below the scrub line? I still haven't bolted mine up yet, I'm too anal about cleaning and painting stuff that its taking forever. The passenger side is almost together though.

I'm curious, are there scrub line issues when using 15" wheels and 2-1/2" drop-spindles? If not, why would stepped LCAs have issues?

[MXmaniac]

Well I got the passenger side bolted together today(except for the tie-rods, gotta order some inner tie-rod ends). Everything looks great and I took some measurements and it doesn't seem like I'll have any scrub line issues, but we'll have to wait and see how it looks weighted down. Here are some pics of my set-up.

3" drop springs, 1-1/2" step, and flipped outer rod end

[lofly'a]

tagging this post to see results for future reference.

[Hottrucks]

did you flip left to right on your tie rod ends(steering arms) ?? I see you have a hine joint on there?? I havn't gotten quite that far but I know the tapered stock tie rod could use some sort of adjustment on the up and down direction??? love the bump stop I dea I may steal that from yea!!!

[MXmaniac]

I didn't switch the steering arms, they are in the original places. I never thought about switching them, and when you mentioned it it made me feel like an idiot for a second thinking i wouldn't have needed to go to the trouble and expense of the heim rod ends.... but then I realized that if you swap sides and flip the steering arms that would put the outer tie rod end really really low, almost scrub line low, and that would be way over-compensating and wouldn't help the bump-steer issue you're trying to fix.

So what I did is used heim rod ends to mount the tie rod on the underside of the steering arm, as opposed to the top side. I drilled out the taper in the steering arm to 37/64" so I could tap it 5/8"-18. For the hardware and rod ends this is my shopping list:
- 2ea. QA1 XM-10 5/8" CrMo rod ends, with LEFT hand 5/8"-18 thread
- 2ea. 303 Stainless Steel 5/8" safety washers
- 4ea. 303 Stainless Steel 5/8" misalignment spacers
- 2ea. 5/8"-18 x 3-1/2" Grade 9 bolts
- 2ea. 5/8" SAE Thru-Hard washers
- 2ea. 5/8"-18 aircraft grade(grade 8) locknuts

But keep in mind this is for '64 C-10, I don't know what thread the tie-rod ends are on other trucks. so if you're gonna do what I did do some measuring and make sure you get the right stuff.

And the bumpstops where like $8.50 a pair from Summit. Part number ENS-9-9103R.

Here's pics, the red line is the original tie-rod location, and the green is what it will be with the flipped tie-rod ends.

[low900rr]

First off.........the control arms look really nice, well done!!!

next
What exactly does the term "scrubline" mean if someone doesnt mind explaining it.

[PBFAB.COM]

I wouldn't recommend running the rod ends on the bottom side of the steering arm, due to the increased bumpsteer you will experience. You may also experience some diminished steering radius.

[Hottrucks]

scrub line= when there is no tires on your wheels ( like you got a flat) with the air bags dumped nothing drags....scrubline = the lowerest part of your truck basicly


I'm not a ig fan of hide joints...I used them alot in hot roda apps and never like the end results...they all seem to rattle

[low900rr]

thanks hottrucks.............thats the idea I had in mind for what it meant.

[MXmaniac]

In the pictures the suspension is completely extended, when it is resting at ride height I expect the angles of the tie rods to be much better than if I had left them up top. But we'll see once its at ride height and if I decided I want them up top and I can just move the heims.

[Shane]

If you got heim joints that are "rattling" then you got worn out heim joints.

[MXmaniac]

^ What he said. And the bolt I used is shouldered all the way until about half way through the final spacer before the steering arm, so my heims aren't on the threaded portion bolt. The threads would be a smaller diameter, which would make it sloppy. That's also why I threaded the steering arm, if I had just through-bolted it there would have been a lot more slop. These rod ends are also Teflon coated and Kevlar sealed, so they shouldn't rattle.

I flipped them because I basically moved the steering arm up 1.5" with the stepped arm, so with the heims underneath the tie rod stays where it was originally. With the heated springs that I took out of the truck the tie rods were already at pretty steep angles. I have no idea about how much drop that was, but this will probably be the same or more.

The picture isn't a good one for showing how everything will be at ride height.

[Shane]

You also should probably cross drill that shoulder bolt and either cotter pin or safety wire it.

[MXmaniac]

They are aircraft grade locknuts, brand new, that my dad brought home from work for me. They are oval and are really snug when running them down so I think they'll stay put. I thought about putting a cotter key in but as often as I'll be under there keeping an eye on my control arms(that's why I painted them gray, easier to see cracks) I'll also be checking those nuts. I got the thumbs up from my dad(aircraft mechanic.. Boeing 777) so I trust them.

[Hottrucks]

Originally Posted by Hottrucks

ok guys looking for some insight?? I bagged the front of my truck with less than desireable results (not low enough) so it looks like back to the cutting and welding I think I will start with stepping the the lower A arm..so heres the question how much (15" wheels) I was thinking 1 1/2" I want to make it so there is some adjustment in my camber so should I take some out ( how much??) of the lower control arm...I also plan on making the cut in the top to elimnate some of the ball joint bind....and.... If that doesn't get it low enough I want to build in the lower cup for the air bag ( but I want to check scrubline with the stepped arms first)

Help outI would like to do this in one pass if I can

thanx
Jeff

Help??

[MXmaniac]

^^ When I get my truck all put back together this week I'll take some measurements and see if its necessary to shorten the lowers. I didn't shorten mine any, and just eyeballing it the camber looks better than I expected.

As far as modifying the upper to keep it from binding, I didn't modify mine and it starts to bind about 1" before the lower hits the bumpstop, so I'll have to come up with a spacer for the bump stop or something.

Once my truck is rolling again I'm going to take it up to the local high school vo-tech kind of place and have them align it(give them a challenge), and I'll let you know how far they needed to adjust it.

[low900rr]

That'll be great..........Im interested in modding mine too but would like to know if its better to shorten them at the same time.

[Shane]

Blind trust is a good thing when it comes to girlfriends and religion, but I prefer mechanical means of safety measures when it comes to steering and braking components on a vehicle. If for some unknown reason that nut does happen to come off then you don't have any steering. Not good for you or anyone else that happens to find themselves on the same road as you.

Safety First.

P.S. Fasteners on aircraft (and most race applications) are either double nutted, safety wired or cotter pinned if they are integral to flight control (or in your case steering control), regardless of whether they are lock-style. They are also always oriented so that if the nut comes off the bolt, the bolt will not fall out, unlike how you have yours oriented.

Ask your dad.

[low900rr]

Correct me if im wrong.........he has the spindle threaded so the bolt threads from the bottom and the nut is on top and locks it tight. If the locknut did come off for some reason the bolt is still threaded into the spindle and cannot "fall out"

[MXmaniac]

Originally Posted by low900rr

Correct me if im wrong.........he has the spindle threaded so the bolt threads from the bottom and the nut is on top and locks it tight. If the locknut did come off for some reason the bolt is still threaded into the spindle and cannot "fall out"

That is correct. The taper has been drilled out of the spindle and tapped. The bolt is tightened into the spindle, with the locknut jamming it as a safety measure, basically double nutted.

And Shane, the reason the bolt is oriented the way it is is so it can be threaded into the spindle. If the bolt came through from the top I wouldn't have been able to thread the spindle and have the rod end on the non-threaded shoulder of the bolt. The locknut on top is serving as a jam nut. I'd personally rather have the bolt oriented "the wrong way" so that I can have the more safety measures that I've got now. Thanks for your concern and tips, maybe it wasn't clear that the spindle is threaded for the bolt.

[MXmaniac]

Also, even if the bolt were oriented so it couldn't fall out there would still be nothing to keep the rod end from falling off if the nut were to back itself off.

[Hottrucks]

Originally Posted by MXmaniac

^^ When I get my truck all put back together this week I'll take some measurements and see if its necessary to shorten the lowers. I didn't shorten mine any, and just eyeballing it the camber looks better than I expected.

As far as modifying the upper to keep it from binding, I didn't modify mine and it starts to bind about 1" before the lower hits the bumpstop, so I'll have to come up with a spacer for the bump stop or something.

Once my truck is rolling again I'm going to take it up to the local high school vo-tech kind of place and have them align it(give them a challenge), and I'll let you know how far they needed to adjust it.

Thanx I only want to cut up and take it apart once so if they need to be shorter than now is the time to do it!!!! also I plan to cut a slot/pie in the upper control arm and bend the ball joint down to stop the bind and weld her back up...that should keep the ball joint in a god position in relatuon to the control arm angle...unfortunatly that may have to wait till the dropping part is done, that makes me think that maybe the lower ball joint could use a bit of angle too??? Hmmmmm any thoughts on that??

Jeff

[MXmaniac]

I would tend to think the top would bind before the bottom, because of its shorter length. The shorter length of the top would mean the up and down motion of the spindle would have a greater affect on the angle of the ball joint. So if my upper only starts to bind about 1" from being bottomed out, the lower ball joint shouldn't be at its extreme yet. But if you're going to cut the lowers apart anyways it couldn't hurt to adjust the angle, it just may not be necessary.