CPP notch problems with quality...round 2

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by LONGHAIR

There are 3 problems with this statement.
First of all they are not the same. A 3/4 ton frame is heavier gauge metal to begin with.....and second, 3/4 ton trucks all have 8' beds (or longer).
Third, is not about power to pull. You have to control that weight. That means stopping it and steering it too. A trailer with a 1000# tongue weight probably has a gross weight of at least 6000#. That is what 50% more than the truck itself? Not my idea of safe with a 6' bed truck.

You are not the only person on the road.....



It's not that bad. You don't need to do the whole frame. A foot or so on each side of the c-notch would be plenty.

I guess Im wrong. I have read many threads here on the forum that said the 3/4 ton trucks ahd the same frame with some added corner bracing between the crossmembers and the frame.

Stopping a 6000lb trailer is no big deal...trailers have brakes. My old trailer would slow down the truck faster than the truck brakes would. People tow way more than 150% of their trucks weight. Heck, my buddy had his Dodge dually over 40,000gcvwr with a 8500lb dually. Never had a problem.

Originally Posted by pharmd

So, who's C notch kit is the best (or at least adequate) then if this one is suspect...I want to learn...sure don't want to go thru all the stuff that you have had to on this deal...

If I were to do this all over again, I would have spent the extra money on the Porterbuilt notch. It cost more, but really I could have supported Nate at a small shop, and had a much higher quality product.

If you have a welder and you are confident in welding teh inside seams, get the CPP notch. It was $102 shipped to my door off ebay.

[Shane]

the porterbuilt unit and the cpp unit are two totally different things.

just to be fair.

[8mpg]

You are correct..the Porterbuilt will be fully welded and much stronger with a top cap on the frame rail to finish out the "C" on the frame.

For PharmD...here is a link to their vendor section.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=366945

Pic of theirs:

[basemodel67]

I dunno, I think if you're that worried and want to tow a trailer that big, maybe you should have left the thing stock. And like Longhair mentioned, the notch might be the least of your worries if you plan on towing with a shortbed... panic stops or sudden lane changes with a heavy trailer and short wheel base = bad day. Even if you have the power to pull it, there's a lot more to it than that. I don't want to be negative, especially to someone who likes truck like I do, but you need to make sure ALL your bases are covered.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

Heck, my buddy had his Dodge dually over 40,000gcvwr with a 8500lb dually. Never had a problem.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should....

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Josh

Just because you can doesn't mean you should....

As previously mentioned, 8mpg would use his 06 Dodge 2500 Megacab Cummins for the HEAVY loads. He just wants to be able to use his lowered short wheel base truck as a truck.

[Josh]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

As previously mentioned, 8mpg would use his 06 Dodge 2500 Megacab Cummins for the HEAVY loads. He just wants to be able to use his lowered short wheel base truck as a truck.

I was mentioning his friend towing 40k lbs with a 3500 truck. Yes the truck would do it, but i'm pretty sure somewhere something was overloaded and laws were broken.

I personally wouldn't tow 1k lb tongue weight 6k lb trailer as 8mpg stated with a lowered c notched short wheel base truck. If you have a 3/4ton diesel truck I don't see why you would even want to risk towing 6k lbs with of a modified shortbed... Our YukonXL is rated to tow just shy of 8k lbs and I have towed near the GCVRW with it. It did it safely but it was compromised in its ability to stop and accelerate to the point I didn't feel comfortable towing like that. I tow a lot with my car trailer and my camper and no longer use the half tons sitting here to tow with when I have a much more capable and safer truck to do so with. Yeah it might not be as cool as a cummins powered nv4500 equipped lowered shortbed on bags but it sure is a lot safer.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by Josh

I was mentioning his friend towing 40k lbs with a 3500 truck. Yes the truck would do it, but i'm pretty sure somewhere something was overloaded and laws were broken.

I personally wouldn't tow 1k lb tongue weight 6k lb trailer as 8mpg stated with a lowered c notched short wheel base truck. If you have a 3/4ton diesel truck I don't see why you would even want to risk towing 6k lbs with of a modified shortbed... Our YukonXL is rated to tow just shy of 8k lbs and I have towed near the GCVRW with it. It did it safely but it was compromised in its ability to stop and accelerate to the point I didn't feel comfortable towing like that. I tow a lot with my car trailer and my camper and no longer use the half tons sitting here to tow with when I have a much more capable and safer truck to do so with. Yeah it might not be as cool as a cummins powered nv4500 equipped lowered shortbed on bags but it sure is a lot safer.

What did people use in the 60-70s before big diesel trucks were around? A 1/2 ton truck can pull car trailers with cars. Im not saying it should pull a 8000lb dually on a car hauler, but it can and will haul cars just fine. Hell, people pull cars with Ford Explorers, v6 no less.

Im not trying to argue with you but the frame can take it, the suspension can take it...why not? At most, Id be pulling an old mustang on a car hauler or making a trip to the steel yard. Im not planning on pulling everday as a work truck, but I want to have the ability to. The notched frame wouldnt be a concern as long as the company does their engineering and builds a quality piece. There are tons of step notched frame duallys out there that pull huge triple car trailers. If they can pull that, a 69 chevy can pull a single car hauler with a moderate load.

[panhandler62]

I don't know how to express this correctly but --- the biggest problem with towing heavy loads with a short wheel base vehicle is not neccesarily a lack of strength or power but stability. The trailer exerts yaw force on the hitch. This is why heavy haulers have long wheel bases or use a 5th wheel mount that puts the site of this force closer to the center of mass of the tow vehicle.

I do not know if a Mustang on a flatbed is too much for a shortbed truck or not (I'm not that kind of engineer!) but I thought I should bring up this point. I'm not saying you are wrong to try it ... I'm just no expert on the issue. I'm only saying that there are concerns to keep in mind that the strength of the frame and thrust of the engine won't solve.

On the plus side; I don't think you'll have an issue with frame strength with the repair you did to the notch plate.

[dv8customs]

There is nothing wrong with complaining when you believe you have recieved an inferior product but lets look at some things...

Originally Posted by 8mpg

Im not an engineer or professional welder...

You said you aren't a professional at either of these but you have determined that both professional welders and engineers have failed to do their job properly.

Originally Posted by 8mpg

CPPJeff stated that there was nothing to worry about and just to "trust him". Sorry... doesnt work that way in my book.

Sales guys don't always have all the information to correctly represent the product but assuming he did discuss this with one of their engineers then I would believe the part is adequate for use. They don't want a failure anymore than you do.

Originally Posted by 8mpg

Im not trying to argue with you but the frame can take it, the suspension can take it...why not?

How do we know the frame can take it? Are we just supposed to "trust you"?

I don't intend to stir the pot but it sounds like you are bashing a vendor based on what you perceive to be a bad part and not on what you know to be a bad part. It is not necessary to always have 100% penetration on a weld. A 50% penetration weld does not mean it is a bad weld. It all depends on the particular application.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by dv8customs

There is nothing wrong with complaining when you believe you have recieved an inferior product but lets look at some things...



You said you aren't a professional at either of these but you have determined that both professional welders and engineers have failed to do their job properly.




Sales guys don't always have all the information to correctly represent the product but assuming he did discuss this with one of their engineers then I would believe the part is adequate for use. They don't want a failure anymore than you do.



How do we know the frame can take it? Are we just supposed to "trust you"?

I don't intend to stir the pot but it sounds like you are bashing a vendor based on what you perceive to be a bad part and not on what you know to be a bad part. It is not necessary to always have 100% penetration on a weld. A 50% penetration weld does not mean it is a bad weld. It all depends on the particular application.

You are joking right? You really trust welds that didnt penetrate well? You take the word of the engineer that says welding the inside seam cannot be done? Not only did he say it cant be done (which clearly it can be), but he went on to say other companies are inferior. What kind of response is that?

Did I determine they dont know how to do their job? I guess I did. Considering the POOR penetration in a weld, and professional welder will tell you that it is a poor weld and would never pass a welding certification test. Again, is their engineer correct? Who knows, the only answer they came up with was

Originally Posted by CPPJeff

Ok so here is the skinny, YOU CANNOT WELD THE INSIDE OF THE NOTCH. My Engineer said that some vendors make them in 3/16" plate and he has seen an issue with those breaking but we make our kits in 1/4" plate and WE HAVE NEVER had an issue with our kits in 15 years, if there was a reason to weld the inside we would most certainly do that.

They have NEVER had a failure in their own words yet someone here has posted he has had a failure and the company didnt care.

How can you tell if these frames can take towing a car... LOOK AROUND. There are plenty of people that have posted pictures of their trucks pulling loads.

Think about this...if you have 2 pieces of steel you weld together that are 1/4" thick and you get 50% penetration. The steel connecting them is 1/8". Do you really think that 1/8" is enough? If it were, why do they boast their 1/4" thick steel brackets and dump on the other competitors 3/16"?

How can you look at the bracket and possibly think that it is a quality part? My buddy builds custom trailers for a living and just laughed out loud at the part. As a business owner that builds trailers from a single car hauler to 53' industrial 18 wheeler trailers, he knows his fair share about proper welding. He said it was a joke and to get my money back. He himself is a certified welder and employs over a dozen certified welders.

[8mpg]

oh...and hopefully in the next week or so we will have an idea on the strength of these brackets from and outside engineering perspective. Third party unbiased opinion.

[basemodel67]

Why didn't you just have your trailer buddy build you some notches?

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by basemodel67

Why didn't you just have your trailer buddy build you some notches?

He lives around 100 miles from me.

I could have built a notch but its much much easier just buying one. I have been trying to say, the fit of the notch is good. I like the product but find the weld just lacking. I dont think anyone seems to understand this simple point. Good product, just needs to be welded better. My first thread was asking if anyone had to fix one before. I wasnt here to bash the company and ridicule them.

CPPJeff tried to reply to my comments and other board members concerns and he was wrong. Then he asked his engineer who was wrong. They further said other companies have inferior products compared to theirs. My whole point was just the darn welding and that it needs better quality control and the inside seam should be welded. This has turned into people tellin me im dumb and worry to much...just "trust" the people that say their welds are fine. I cannot except that the welds are fine, that the engineer is correct or that Jeff was correct on why the inside of the brackets are not welded.

[Dieselwrencher]

Wow, people actually think these newer 1/2 ton vehicles compare to an old 1/2 ton when it comes to hauling? Seriously? Does anyone actually work on these newer ones or actually try to use them? 8mpg, sorry about your bad part. Nice fix. Good luck on the rest.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

Wow, people actually think these newer 1/2 ton vehicles compare to an old 1/2 ton when it comes to hauling? Seriously? Does anyone actually work on these newer ones or actually try to use them? 8mpg, sorry about your bad part. Nice fix. Good luck on the rest.

Thanks man...I need to get my butt out there and work on the truck and stop playin on the internet. Hope to have some updates pretty soon. I need to make fuel lines and brake lines for the chassis and the body goes on.

Any thoughts on using a fuel cell with diesel? Im worried since it doesnt have baffles that its goign to foam up.

[dv8customs]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

oh...and hopefully in the next week or so we will have an idea on the strength of these brackets from and outside engineering perspective. Third party unbiased opinion.

Sorry if I missed it but what is it you are having tested?

[Dieselwrencher]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

Any thoughts on using a fuel cell with diesel? Im worried since it doesnt have baffles that its goign to foam up.

I have a 16gal cell in the vette and the only problems I have is when it is at about a 1/4 tank, the fuel will slosh and I can hear my fuel pumps cavitate. However, I am thinking of adding new foam to it if I can make sure the foam won't block my feed ports. I know other guys who run foam blocks in theirs without any problem. Other than that, no real problems that I know of, other than it is kind of a PITA to fill mine.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by dv8customs

Sorry if I missed it but what is it you are having tested?

The brackets will be load tested on the computer by a couple engineers to compare original frame strength and a frame with a CPP notch in the same scenario. This will be a computer model tested to compare original vs one with the CPP notch. Not a full load test with a full suspension.

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

I have a 16gal cell in the vette and the only problems I have is when it is at about a 1/4 tank, the fuel will slosh and I can hear my fuel pumps cavitate. However, I am thinking of adding new foam to it if I can make sure the foam won't block my feed ports. I know other guys who run foam blocks in theirs without any problem. Other than that, no real problems that I know of, other than it is kind of a PITA to fill mine.

Thanks man... Maybe I will just run the fuel cell that I have. The truck will have a fuel door in the bed to fill the cell. No foam in the fuel cell that I have..

[dznucks]

I am interested i seeing the results of the tests they do, as this is what i do for a living but with aircraft.

I am assuming they are going to build finite element models and apply similar loading that the truck would see if it was loaded with a trailer.

I would also like to know what loading they are using to test the models with.
It will be hard to model the CPP notches with the welds they have. They will need to apply some type of knock-down factor or factor in the stress riser that the welds are creating since they do not have good penetration.

the welds are definitely the weakest link in this product, which is an extremely poor design for a structural part.

I didnt know about PB's notchs when i bought mine. i would have bought those. CPP welds should look like PB's. I bet CPP's parts are roboticly welded, there aren't many certified welders that would let a weld like that go out the door. I quit buying from CPP awhile ago after i learned why they tripled the price of their pinion shims.

[Shane]

why did they triple the price of their pinion shims?

[dznucks]

I was told by a sale's rep (before Jeff came along) that they changed vendors, changed materials, and where now stamping the the CPP logo on them. The rep went on to say their cost was twenty-something dollars and so they were selling them for $69. They still had not updated their catalogs or website to reflect the price/product change.

I threw my CPP catalog away after that phone conversation. I had already purchased my c-notch's, drop blocks, and front shock brackets from them.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by dznucks

I was told by a sale's rep (before Jeff came along) that they changed vendors, changed materials, and where now stamping the the CPP logo on them. The rep went on to say their cost was twenty-something dollars and so they were selling them for $69. They still had not updated their catalogs or website to reflect the price/product change.

I threw my CPP catalog away after that phone conversation. I had already purchased my c-notch's, drop blocks, and front shock brackets from them.

Thats interesting. I paid $85+ shipping on ebay... $102 to the door. CPPJeff said he could do $90 as our discount price + shipping. Mine didnt have a stamping.

Talked with Nate at Porterbuilt and he said there will be a new notch design coming from them. After talking to him, it sounds VERY stout and will be much better than the CPP unit. Sounds like it is worth the extra money. I might sell my frame and start with the other one I have just so I can use his notch.

LOL.. I thought you were talking about the notch..not the pinion shims.

[dv8customs]

Don't forget to have your engineering buddies run some numbers on Nate's notch too to make sure it meets your needs....

[N2TRUX]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

The brackets will be load tested on the computer by a couple engineers to compare original frame strength and a frame with a CPP notch in the same scenario. This will be a computer model tested to compare original vs one with the CPP notch. Not a full load test with a full suspension...

So this test is going to show how a notch makes the frame weaker. How is it going to show the "CPP" notch makes it weaker or stronger than any other brand of notch? Unless you plan to test each one on the market it seems your only proving that c-notching a frame will make it weaker.

This still sounds like a CPP witch hunt to me.