CPP notch problems with quality...round 2

[8mpg]

Just got the notch in today and while it looks like great penetration and teh outside welds look great, Im less than impressed. Im going to have to go back and weld the inside seams. There was a lack of penetration though the heat rings make it look like it was a good weld. Here are some pics:

Looks good from far:


Closer up, all you see is a gap between the pieces of steel:


Closer:


Here is the typical penetration for the whole thing...1/8" or so. The thing in my mind is about 1/2 welded and 1/2 as strong as it could be.


Anyone else have a problem with theirs? I sure wouldnt feel safe just bolting it on out of the box. To give them some credit...I just looked over it some more and some of the welds are nice and penetrate better than others, but definitely not 100% on the 1/4" steel. Im gonna say at most its 75% penetration on 30-40% of the welds.
THIS NEXT PART IS AFTER REPLIES FROM THE OTHER THREAD FROM CPP JEFF AND PEOPLE THAT THINK IM JUST CRAZY

Im not an engineer or professional welder...but they are just WRONG. Here is the proof. I did it and it still fits with TONS of room. What other vendors do has no bearing on a lack of quality on your product. This is simply bad welding job no matter how you look at it. Dont get me wrong, it fits great, good design, I like the product but the welding is something so simple and your engineers/sales dont care. You just say "it might look crappy...but just trust me, it works great" Why do new trucks have fully boxed frames that are hydroformed? Because frame strength is essential. Lots of engineering has come along since the 60's. For your "engineers" to say its not possible or you cannot weld the inside seem, is just laughable. No offense against you or the company. Im just another hobbyist that does think that proper welding and strength are important when Im gonna put my life in the hands of your work.

Moving on...

I welded the inside seams. Im not a professional welder and my welds are not as pretty. Simply MIG welded inside seams with teh welder set for 3/16 steel (so I dont melt through and mess up the pretty welds)




Good penetration:


Thickness of the weld bead that you guys say will interfere with the frame rail:


The impossible:


Still fits...both sides with plenty of room for a fatter weld.

[1971gmcshortbed]

I installed one on my frame and I think it looked about the same, most people say they dont fit perfect but I think it's because the frame isn't straight in that area. It looks as if they weld on the inside it will make it sit farther out because of the weld. I bolted mine in and then welded it. It's not going anywhere.

[texastrendz]

if you can weld, why bolt it in? weld that biotch in and call it good!!!lol

[noonzor]

Originally Posted by 1971gmcshortbed

I installed one on my frame and I think it looked about the same, most people say they dont fit perfect but I think it's because the frame isn't straight in that area. It looks as if they weld on the inside it will make it sit farther out because of the weld. I bolted mine in and then welded it. It's not going anywhere.

same thing i did, once bolted in welded em up. but agreed, when my welder saw the notches he asked who made em with a giggle.

[scotts62]

When i put them on my old frame i welded it in and smoothed it up to blend it but the ones i got seemed to be welded pretty good.

[N2TRUX]

I have not installed one myself, but have been around a few. One thing that seems to be consistent regardless of the manufacturer is fitment issues. I have come to the conclusion that these issues are not poor design by the supplier, but caused by variances in the frames. It seems that the frames at that point vary dramatically and the aftermarket suppliers have had to find a happy middle ground.

As for your concerns over the weld quality, I feel that it's not an issues. If you really are that concerned, you can follow Scoti's method of building one that's bulletproof.

[SCOTI]

One thing mentioned in the 'other' thread was these notches have been marketed for 15yrs w/o a single failure. Has the same certified welder welded every single c-notch assembly? Prob not, so it is possible that some could make it out of production w/less than optimum weld penetration.

Looking @ the weld penetration from the backside, I would have re-welded them too. And, as 8mpg has shown, you can weld the back-side w/o interfering w/the installation.

[orange71]

i purchased one about 5 years ago and it actually cracked and screwed up the rear of my frame. CPP Did nothing to help me fix the problem. Havent purchased a product since!

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by orange71

i purchased one about 5 years ago and it actually cracked and screwed up the rear of my frame. CPP Did nothing to help me fix the problem. Havent purchased a product since!

Thanks for the reply. Im glad to hear that CPP is not perfect like everyone tries to make them out to be.

Can you elaborate on how/where it cracked? Weld seam, bolt hole, etc?

[basemodel67]

Jeez! Is someone anxious to get out the torch and pitchfork and chase down CPP? Two threads on the same thing in one day...

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

One thing mentioned in the 'other' thread was these notches have been marketed for 15yrs w/o a single failure. Has the same certified welder welded every single c-notch assembly? Prob not, so it is possible that some could make it out of production w/less than optimum weld penetration.

Looking @ the weld penetration from the backside, I would have re-welded them too. And, as 8mpg has shown, you can weld the back-side w/o interfering w/the installation.

Thanks Scoti. Im with you that welder can change. Im also aware that no company in their right mind would come out and say "hey...we have a few trucks twist the frame, get into an accident and someone died". To sell thousands of a product and claim to never have a flaw or failure seems a bit odd. Even the best are never perfect.

Originally Posted by basemodel67

Jeez! Is someone anxious to get out the torch and pitchfork and chase down CPP? Two threads on the same thing in one day...

No...my other thread was locked due to a little bickering between Shane and I. When that happens, we cant get down to the truth and the facts.

Im not here to bash their products. Im here to educate myself and others who might buy the bracket and bolt it on. If the frame is going to have 50% of the original frame strength, people ought to know. They should also know that they can weld the inside of the bracket and gain strength.

I want to be able to still use my truck and tow a car on a trailer. Now if the frame has 50% of its strength, its probably not a good idea. If you read the other thread I asked if people had similar issues or concerns. CPPJeff stated that there was nothing to worry about and just to "trust him". Sorry... doesnt work that way in my book. He then said that his engineers reviewed what I had brought forth and said that you cant weld the inside seams.

I thought welding the seams might create in interferance with clearance and its ability to push tight against the frame. This isnt the case. CPPJeff said part of the reason its not welded is the fit. This is completely incorrect. The engineers also stated that other manufacturers make inferior products using 3/16" steel vs their 1/4". That had no concern. The "look, it could be worse" makes me worry.

In conclusion, Im after the question of strength. Will it be answered? I dunno. Please take this thread as you want it. If you have one, its your life in your truck on their bad welding. If you are not worried, great. Its obvious some people, as well as I, are concerned and would no way put it on our trucks without proper welding.


For everyone else...the reason Im bolting it on for now is I have a feeling that a step notch may be in the future. This way I can unbolt it and sell it. Also wont have to cut through an extra 1/4" steel with the step.

[LONGHAIR]

Just so you know, Starting a new thread on the same topic after one has been locked, is generally not a good idea. If the "match" continues, you are going to be the one paying the price

[Liz]

It's ok LH. In this instance I told him to go ahead and start a new thread minus the bs fest.

[panhandler62]

I got two of these critters from GMC Paul ... (I don't know what the suplier was or if he makes them... I'm thinking the former though) and they were welded very nicely. They didn't fit as well as the ones you have pictured here though but, as has been mentined, that may say more about my frame than about the part.

As a general rule -- I think you get the best craftmanship from small shops that are basicaly hobbiests livin the dream. I think the bigger shops sometimes experiance a fall off in craftsmanship when they have to churn out bucket loads of these things.

I like your fix, by the way. I don't think those will give you any trouble now.

[LONGHAIR]

Originally Posted by Liz

It's ok LH. In this instance I told him to go ahead and start a new thread minus the bs fest.

Liz, I figured it was, at least at this point. It was more of a "keep it clean" type of thing.

[Hart_Rod]

If you are going to do some serious towing, I would highly recommend welding it to the frame. Just my 2 cents...OBTW, don't forget that your hitch is usually only held on the frame by 6-8 bolts......

[Ackattack]

On a stock style coil spring truck that isn't used for towing, the rear section of the frame is only holding up part of the weight of the bed, and maybe some of the force of the axle depending on how/where the shocks are mounted. The springs are forward of this, and the forward "push" gets transfered up to the trailing arm crossmember.

[dznucks]

Good show 8mpg.

We need answers. If we are buying parts, the parts need to work right, without re-work. We aren't buying kits, that are customizable, depending on how strong you want the part to be or how well you want the part to fit. I expect to buy a part and it fit right, the first time.

If a company is going to tout having an engineering department, we need technical answers. We need to see that their engineering is going to stand behind the product after it leaves CPP. My CPP notches werent as bad as yours, weld wise.

But i am also having issues with their shock brackets.

[andrewmp6]

You gotta remember these trucks are mass production so now two frames are really the same.And when these trucks where new people bought them to use as a truck so the frame has seen its share of weight in the bed or towing.Any company can make mistakes good ones stand up and fix the problem fast.I have bought led tail lights for a couple different cars from different vendors.I had one set had 2 dead leds the company gave me the run around and ignored me.I ebayed them and bought a set from another company had a wiring problem mostly my fault.But they spent 30 mins on the phone walking me through my mess up.Price means nothing to me i rather buy from a company that cares.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by Ackattack

On a stock style coil spring truck that isn't used for towing, the rear section of the frame is only holding up part of the weight of the bed, and maybe some of the force of the axle depending on how/where the shocks are mounted. The springs are forward of this, and the forward "push" gets transfered up to the trailing arm crossmember.

You are correct...My true concern about this whole thing is capability of towing. In the other thread Shane and others bashed me for worrying about it. The 1000+lb tongue weight acts as leverage on the rear part of the frame. If it was going to buckle, it is going to buckle at the weakest point. The weakest point with a notched frame is the notched area itself.

I dont have the link in this thread, but it was in the locked one. A pipe notch without backing plate reduces the original strength of the frame to 25%. By boxing the inside with a 1/4" plate (not counting into the fact of the weld quality) you are still at 75% in that area.

I will hopefully have some basic test results soon. I drew up the part in CAD, a buddy extruded it and made it 3d in solidworks. I need to get the frame measurements and get into 3d. Then another buddy who works as an engineer for Cummins will do the FEA load test. Also, there is a board member that may be helping me run the testing as well. Will be interesting with 2 sets of results.

[LONGHAIR]

It might just be me, but I'm thinking that towing at trailer that has 1000 pound tongue weight with a truck that is lowered to the point of needing a C-notch is not the best idea anyway?...and a short-step too boot?

If I did intend to tow with a c-notched truck, it would be boxed. I wouldn't tow something that heavy with a 1/2 ton short bed anyway even w/o a 'notch....and this is nothing personal, I have made that same comment on several threads.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by LONGHAIR

It might just be me, but I'm thinking that towing at trailer that has 1000 pound tongue weight with a truck that is lowered to the point of needing a C-notch is not the best idea anyway?...and a short-step too boot?

If I did intend to tow with a c-notched truck, it would be boxed. I wouldn't tow something that heavy with a 1/2 ton short bed anyway even w/o a 'notch....and this is nothing personal, I have made that same comment on several threads.

Its cool.. A half ton and 3/4 ton basically had the same frame. Why not tow? The truck will have the powerplant to do it. Lots of members here tow with their truck (LFD being one I see often). I have a truck if I really needed to tow heavier (06 Dodge 2500 Megacab Cummins) but that is the fun of the truck. THe frame in my opinion is pretty strong and more than capable of towing.

The boxing the frame part is debated. I think boxing the frame would be nice but if you spend that kind of time and effort, might as well just build a chassis. A slammed truck can still be a great towing rig.

[orange71]

the notch that i had was made of 3/16" material, and at the time the notches were advertised to be 1/4". I never inspected this "Quality part" before i installed. The notch cracked up the rear weld seam and continued to the frame. If it was caught in time i dont think there would have been frame damage but that was the last thing in my mind to worry about. i removed the notch and brought it back to the pomona swap meet so they could check it out and they just gave me the run around and never did a thing!

[LONGHAIR]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

Its cool.. A half ton and 3/4 ton basically had the same frame. Why not tow? The truck will have the powerplant to do it. .

There are 3 problems with this statement.
First of all they are not the same. A 3/4 ton frame is heavier gauge metal to begin with.....and second, 3/4 ton trucks all have 8' beds (or longer).
Third, is not about power to pull. You have to control that weight. That means stopping it and steering it too. A trailer with a 1000# tongue weight probably has a gross weight of at least 6000#. That is what 50% more than the truck itself? Not my idea of safe with a 6' bed truck.

You are not the only person on the road.....

Originally Posted by 8mpg

The boxing the frame part is debated. I think boxing the frame would be nice but if you spend that kind of time and effort, might as well just build a chassis.

It's not that bad. You don't need to do the whole frame. A foot or so on each side of the c-notch would be plenty.

[pharmd]

So, who's C notch kit is the best (or at least adequate) then if this one is suspect...I want to learn...sure don't want to go thru all the stuff that you have had to on this deal...