Project: Recycle

[lolife99]

What are you degree are you looking for at the pinion?
4-5 degrees up?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by lolife99

What are you degree are you looking for at the pinion?
4-5 degrees up?

I'm looking for the correct 'opposite' of the trans. I have the ECE T/A mounts flipped. The rest has to be adjusted w/the rear end & the truck-arms. I used the 3° shims but that goes to show how much things can be off regarding pinion angle....

If I didn't already have the ECE set-up, I would have used PB's x-member. But, I knew going into it that I might need to modify things so it didn't make sense to spend the extra $$......

[bubba327]

Where are you getting your shims??? Maybe I better be checking the angles of my set up while I have my new rear axle still kinda loosely installed

[daverod]

Summit sells them. They ship fast

[lolife99]

http://www.stockcarproducts.com/trkarm1.htm

[ratty 46]

I just got finished RE-reading your build process/progress .... I'm still impressed with the "plan" that you've been staying to.

I can not wait to see all the parts joined up.

Ratty 46

[SCOTI]

Thank you sir!

[SCOTI]

Alright, we got a couple more hours tonight....

I readily admit, my past projects have been drop & go w/o verifying the driveline angles. They were all mainly 1:1 final drive ratios so vibration wasn't an issue. I never had any issues to be honest & I've lowered almost every vehicle I've owned (GM trucks, ElCamino's, Malibus, Camaros, & 1 x-DPS Mustang).

This time I'm trying to improve. I'm also running a 700r4 & understand the driveline angles become that much more critical for vibration free operation. So, I've been digging for info on driveline set-ups. What's correct, what's possible, 1pc, 2pc w/carrier, single u-joint, dbl CV joint, etc, etc.....

From what I understand, the angles @ each end of a 1pc d.shaft set-up should equal each other. I understand this as 3.0° @ the trans suggests I need 3.0° @ the rear end. Anyone want to confirm/correct this?

My reading also suggests these amounts/degrees @ each end of the shaft are to help cancel out the ocillation that occurs as the joint spins (speeding up & slowing down the shaft as it turns). By keeping the amounts similar, they help cancel each other out. Zero is not good either as the needle bearings won't lubricate/wear properly.... minimal (1-2°) difference is desired. Again, anyone that knows this stuff want to confirm/correct this? If these statements are correct, it shouldn't matter whether the pinion is up or down, as long as the degree amount is similar.... Right??

Hoping this is correct, I played around w/the heights until I could yield similar numbers (@ ride height). By slightly raising the trans tailshaft, I was able to achieve 4.2° @ the output shaft. We removed the T/A shims to see what the OE settings would be & had 2.2° @ the d.shaft (sloped up from the trans to the pinion) & I was now 2.0° down @ the pinion.

I then swapped in some 2.5° shims & the new numbers were 4.2° @ the trans output, 1.6° @ driveshaft (again, uphill), & 4.5° down @ the pinion. The 4.5° @ the pinion is on the edge of acceptability from what I've read for a 'street vehicle'; the downside being increased wear on the u-joints. The plus side seems to be as the torque is transferred to the housing, I should remain within my 2° window.

This I can live with. This also reduces the amount the hoop must be raised by .500".

Allright experts..... chime in .

[watahyahknow]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/ do a search around here , these guys calculate suspensions using cadcam , there prolly able to tell you more about solutions than any of us here

[SCOTI]

Here's some feedback I received on Lateral-g:

youre concerned about working angles (WA). the WA is a combination of both sides of the angle. so, if your ds was at 0* and your tranny at 2* you have a 2* WA. you want both of your WA's as close to 1* as possible, but not under (needle bearing issue you described). you also want both WA's no more than .5* different from each other. some will say 2-3* difference is ok, but like you said they help to cancel each other out.

if you really want it set up correct, dont fall into the camp that says "equal and opposite" when discussing the tranny and pinion. although that way will set it up correct 90%+ of the time it only takes a little time to measure your WA's and do it the best way possible.

It seems spacial concerns will hamper many targeting this 'ideal' range (not just those of us w/these trucks). I wonder what the 'failure' is if working angles cannot achieve that target range (as close to 1° as possible)? The GM tech-spec info I received from my buddy last night (he works @ a GM dealership) indicates up to 4° WA is acceptable but not to exceed that range.

I did some additional reading of that GM 'tech-spec' @ lunch & it stated: To calculate the working angle of each intersection, subtract the smaller number from the larger to obtain the working angle. So my set-up would yield 2.6° WA @ the trans & 2.9° WA @ the pinion. These are within the .5° range of each other to be optimum. It would seem I can leave things as is, or use a dbl CV style joint @ the trans & remove the pinion shim to put me closer to @ 2° down.

I think....

[watahyahknow]

im getting a headacke.........i think

[aggie91]

Scoti

What you wrote above about your angles is correct and what you found about working angles needing to be 1 degree is also correct from what I learned at the driveline shop and from my research.

if you imagine that your trans tail shaft yoke and your pinion yoke are level with each other (looking at the truck from the side, they are the same height from the ground), that would make your drive shaft at 0 degrees. The trans shaft should point down toward the rear and be at 1 degree from level. The pinion should point up toward the front and should be at 1 degree from level. THis puts the WA's at 1 degree for the ideal set up.

Since your trans and rear end are at different heights, you drive shaft is now at an angle, so your numbers should be fine. Your could mess with trying to raise or lower your trans mount to get your working angle closer to 1 degree and rotate your rear end housing to get that one closer too, but that might be a lot of trial and error to get correct. I have always used the equal and opposite as a general rule and have not had issues. I just set the trans output shaft and the pinion shaft parrallel to each other and that has worked for me.

[darkhorse970]

This is great information concerning the driveline angles. I might have just found the cause of my slight vibration at about 70 mph...I will measure my angles and see. Thanks.

[SCOTI]

Well, it seems running a 1pc shaft upward (from the trans to the pinion) is a no-go. Problems w/shuddering/vibrations upon take-off & hard acceleration.

I have to either raise the trans output shaft or go multi-shaft w/CV joints. I'm waiting on a quote now....

[SCOTI]

I've been talking (texting ) w/Mr. Porter throughout the night.

It seems my 2nd choice of 1pc shaft w/a CV joint @ the trans & a level pinion will work. I was waiting to get some feedback from the driveshaft rep but Nathan beat him to the punch. I had already ordered the 2° shims earlier today just in case this scenario was 'do-able'.

[SCOTI]

Well, the driveshaft joint isn't liking the 1pc shaft, CV joint, incline slope to the pinion set-up & feels it's a compromise. They feel the better alternative is raising the tailshaft so I'm @ 3° & dropping the pinion to the point of the d.shaft being level. I didn't get much time this weekend so I'll play w/the heights/angles some more this week.

The d.shaft builders feel the CV joints aren't a long term 'quality' alternative but more of a band-aid. I'm not a band-aid kind of car guy so I'll get more info/input from Nathan & them to work toward a solution.

I should have more shims in Mon/Tues for pinion adjustments. While messing around w/the driveline angles on Sat, I also finished painting the rear HD drums.

[SCOTI]

I got a few hours today & played around w/the angles..... again. What I wound up w/was 2.5° down @ the drivetrain/trans output shaft, .8° down @ the d.shaft, & 2.4° down @ the pinion. I feel this is going to be my best compromise.

The driveshaft places want 3° down @ the trans, level or <1° down @ the d.shaft, & 3° up on the pinion. That 3° up @ the pinion would require me to raise the trans/drivetrain a substantial amount within the chassis so that the trans output is higher than the pinion in order to achieve their 'targets'. I don't wish to raise the drivetrain any higher than it is & I certainly don't want to build an entire new floor.

I'm going to try the final angles I ended up w/today. If there are vibrations, I can do the dbl cardan/CV joint up front & raise the pinion close to level (<.5°) per PB's recommendation. Also during all this measuring, I realized my ride height was a little lower than what I originally thought it was. I've been saying it was 5.5" @ the front cab mounts & 6.25" @ the rears. I'm actually 1" lower @ each w/the lower a-arm bolt C/L @ 6" off the ground .

I went ahead & made some pieces to raise the ECE x-member hoop & got the materials to make the trans mount spacer. I'll get this stuff fabbed & hopefully welded up next week after work.

[VA72C10]

Progress? are we talking about progress?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by VA72C10

Progress? are we talking about progress?

I took multiple pics when documenting/adjusting all the angles. But the pics just don't show well. You can't read the DAF display because of the pic & I doubt you could tell a difference of the rear housing with & w/o shims.

It's been a tedious process to say the least....

[SCOTI]

Ok, pics & info for the hounds. I got the trans spacer finished today. Painted it & the shims I'm using to dial in the front working angle for the drive-line....

[SCOTI]

Here's an 'exploded view' of the shims, spacer, & poly trans mount w/hardware plus everything installed....

[SCOTI]

While in between coats & waiting for paint to dry, I prepped all the truck-arm x-member pieces (prep = stripped to bare metal). I had already cut & trial fit everything for raising the d.shaft hoop. I got everything welded up & then did post welding 'clean-up'....

[VA72C10]

Nice!!!! Thanks for the pics. Us hounds appreciate it

[lolife99]

I'm still trying to get my head around all these angles.
Thanks for posting pics also.

[lolife99]

Scot,... assuming the ECE trans crossmember positions the transmission in the stock location,... how tall is your combination of spacers at the tail shaft?
I'm also keeping in mind that the Dropmember raises the engine one(?) inch higher than stock.
I guess I'm trying to figure out how much you are changing the engine/trans installed angle compared to a stock truck.
Seems like the tailshaft is much higher.