An expensive lesson learned

[rustyrodknocker]

Here is an opinion that may not be appreciated, but all things being equal starting with a bent pushrod which in my expierence has always been due to the pushrod being subject to excessive pressure. meaning rocker arm to tight/ incorrect adjustment. seen this many times. this would also explain a radical difference in wear on four lobes. with the same run time and equal lube and pressure the differences between lobes should be less than extreme. I would check the visible thread count above the nut on the rocker stud and disasemble the lifters or at least check spring back with a screwdriver or something similar. my next point is the vast majority of these old rigs [meaning millions] are running off the shelf motor oil. If it was devastating to flat tappet motors, these trucks would be stacking up in the ditch. My last point is just a personal expierence with a from mexico crate motor. My buddy called me over, he had his motor still in the crate, it was minus intake. You could see holes in the cam lobes. We both recognized it immediatley as we are both professional welders. Weld porosity The cam had been welded and reground. welded very poorly. starting porosity from what I guessed was smaw nirod. True story folks. Take it as you may. Hencho Rebuild. That being said my next motor will be roller, I think it is the way to go now.

[mcbassin]

Wow Mike. Sorry to hear about your engine. I must have missed it on your thread. I'm not a gear head by any stretch but I appreciate this info. I had no Idea that you couldn't run Synthetic oil in a flat tappet engine. Thanks again.

[Mike Bradbury]

Originally Posted by rustyrodknocker

Here is an opinion that may not be appreciated, but all things being equal starting with a bent pushrod which in my expierence has always been due to the pushrod being subject to excessive pressure. meaning rocker arm to tight/ incorrect adjustment. seen this many times. this would also explain a radical difference in wear on four lobes. with the same run time and equal lube and pressure the differences between lobes should be less than extreme. I would check the visible thread count above the nut on the rocker stud and disasemble the lifters or at least check spring back with a screwdriver or something similar. my next point is the vast majority of these old rigs [meaning millions] are running off the shelf motor oil. If it was devastating to flat tappet motors, these trucks would be stacking up in the ditch. My last point is just a personal expierence with a from mexico crate motor. My buddy called me over, he had his motor still in the crate, it was minus intake. You could see holes in the cam lobes. We both recognized it immediatley as we are both professional welders. Weld porosity The cam had been welded and reground. welded very poorly. starting porosity from what I guessed was smaw nirod. True story folks. Take it as you may. Hencho Rebuild. That being said my next motor will be roller, I think it is the way to go now.

I have heard that the cams in these crate motors are junk and I have heard of them failing within a limited amount of hours. I am a welding instructor and have inspected the cam for evidence of it being welded and reground, and have not seen any. All I can say is that when I powder coated the pan there was no shavings in the bottom, and I was the first to take the pan off since it was new. I am pretty confident that all of the damage came from the last 1000 or so miles. Once the cam starts to shred it doesn't take long for the shavings to act like sand paper on everything in the entire engine.
For this reason I am upgrading to roller and all American made components.

In my build thread I describe more of the back story and what I found when I took the engine apart. The valve guide was smooth and there was no piston to valve contact. I think what I did was over reved the engine and floated a valve which dammaged it. It did not bend then but I think it weakened it and the long drive up to L.A. took it the rest of the way out. Also having a round cam lobe, the rod could not keep constant presure on the rocker and it probably started to wiggle around in its seat

[stich626]

todays oil and flat tap cams, = no good..
if the block is machined for a roller cam, USE IT..

[watahyahknow]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

I have heard that the cams in these crate motors are junk and I have heard of them failing within a limited amount of hours. I am a welding instructor and have inspected the cam for evidence of it being welded and reground, and have not seen any. All I can say is that when I powder coated the pan there was no shavings in the bottom, and I was the first to take the pan off since it was new. I am pretty confident that all of the damage came from the last 1000 or so miles. Once the cam starts to shred it doesn't take long for the shavings to act like sand paper on everything in the entire engine.
For this reason I am upgrading to roller and all American made components.

In my build thread I describe more of the back story and what I found when I took the engine apart. The valve guide was smooth and there was no piston to valve contact. I think what I did was over reved the engine and floated a valve which dammaged it. It did not bend then but I think it weakened it and the long drive up to L.A. took it the rest of the way out. Also having a round cam lobe, the rod could not keep constant presure on the rocker and it probably started to wiggle around in its seat

did you do a metal hardnes test on the cam and lifters, it could be the surfacecoating on them is too thin
allso a bend rod could allso be because of water in the cilinder (hydrolock)

[stich626]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

I have heard that the cams in these crate motors are junk and I have heard of them failing within a limited amount of hours.

you've heard false info..
the cams are fine the user are not..
they either don't know they need the zinc additive or the "off road only oil"
or they are to cheap.. and this is what happens..
before they came out with the truck vortec crate I have installed 10+ flat tap crates ,, most have over 250k and 3 are over 400k..
run the right oil no issues..

[DeputyDan]

Originally Posted by mcbassin

Wow Mike. Sorry to hear about your engine. I must have missed it on your thread. I'm not a gear head by any stretch but I appreciate this info. I had no Idea that you couldn't run Synthetic oil in a flat tappet engine. Thanks again.

Royal Purple is a Synthetic and it's run on flat tappets and recommended for flat tappets so the idea that you can't run Synthetic in a flat tappet is false. If using Royal Purple get the HPS or XPR line and you don't need anything added.

[RenoKeene]

Originally Posted by domeier

This is a link to an excellent paper on motor oils in general written by a dude who would appear to thoroughly enjoy his subject:

http://www.motor-oil-engineers.com/M...eers%20PDF.pdf

If you don't want to read all 29,000 pages, just do a document search for "zinc." While it doesn't specifically address this particular issue, it explains very well what the zinc does, and why we need it. I emailed the author this morning with a link to this thread, and asked if he'd be kind enough to give us a recommendation for a proper oil. If you read through the document, you'll see he's not in favor of additives of any kind, and he lays out his reasons with solid justifications.

I'll let you know if he replies to my email.

Yep, that about covers everything we need to know about lubrication. Now I recommend everyone at least take a look at Mr. Mann's publication. This could prevent what happened to Mike happening to us. Thank you very much for the link.
Brad

[RenoKeene]

Just a side note to this...no hi-jack intended.
For the pure resto folks on here a roller setup is not an option (as far as I know), those tall valve covers are a dead giveaway. So this oil tech is critical.
Thanks

[sleepingbag]

Originally Posted by DDixon1000

Royal Purple is a Synthetic and it's run on flat tappets and recommended for flat tappets so the idea that you can't run Synthetic in a flat tappet is false. If using Royal Purple get the HPS or XPR line and you don't need anything added.

Royal Purple or Amsoil and the best filter you can find and all the talk is a moot point, you wont have any issues at all.

[pumpkin]

Originally Posted by Dano69c10

Hey pumpkin,
Which Joe Gibbs oil would you recommend should be used on a stock 350 that is only street driven? I went the the website and there seemed to be more than 10 oils on there...
Thanx Dano

At our shop we use the 20w50 racing oil. The biggest problem with all of this, is that the oils are changing faster than we can keep up. I have tried e mailing oil companies, but seem to get responses from salesmen who, like in any company are not necessaraly up to date. I lost two engines personaly, using oil that was supposed to be good. the latest was run on shell routalla. I got to the point of doing hours of reaserch before every oil change. Being I do all my own work the swap to a retrofit roller cam only cost me parts, about $600.

[pumpkin]

Originally Posted by RenoKeene

Just a side note to this...no hi-jack intended.
For the pure resto folks on here a roller setup is not an option (as far as I know), those tall valve covers are a dead giveaway. So this oil tech is critical.
Thanks

Roller cam has nothing to do with the valve covers,,,roller rockers do. And even though its nice to go full roller, the rockers don't seem to be a problem,,,,at least not now,,,,till they change **** on us next time around.

[stich626]

Originally Posted by sleepingbag

Royal Purple or Amsoil and the best filter you can find and all the talk is a moot point, you wont have any issues at all.

ok if you say so...
good luck with that..

[leddzepp]

Originally Posted by rustyrodknocker

my next point is the vast majority of these old rigs [meaning millions] are running off the shelf motor oil. If it was devastating to flat tappet motors, these trucks would be stacking up in the ditch.

exactly.
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[leddzepp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bradbury

I think what I did was over reved the engine and floated a valve which dammaged it. It did not bend then but I think it weakened it and the long drive up to L.A. took it the rest of the way out.

i think this is far more likely what caused the problem than running the "wrong" oil.
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[stich626]

Originally Posted by rustyrodknocker

. my next point is the vast majority of these old rigs [meaning millions] are running off the shelf motor oil. If it was devastating to flat tappet motors, these trucks would be stacking up in the ditch. .

haha, now take the 40 y/o wiped out springs off the engine and install good ones.. my old rig floated valves at 3200rpm with the old springs, and that the only reason they are skating by

[Mike Bradbury]

I really think this was a perfect storm of issues that unfortunately culminated 100 miles from home. The guys at the dealership may have mis adjusted the valves when they installed the motor, it might have been the over rev that took its toll, the cam may have been inferior, and the oil may have exacerbated the weakness. At the time I was ignorant that ZDDP content had been reduced over the years and I used the same oil I always have used which led to the failure. Weather all these issues or some of them contributed to the failure, the spirit of this post was to alert the unsuspecting builder to pay attention to the small details. When you get a project truck, go over it completely and get a baseline on everything. Don't just take for granted that the engine appears to be fine. Look at the products that you put into the engine (gas, oil, antifreeze, etc..). with the EPA and the move toward cleaner energy, our older engines were not designed for the new generation of tech and attention to the detail is a must. This is why in the O.P. alluded to the fact that all motor oil is not created equal.

I like the fact that this thread has sen a lot of healthy discussion and did not just die after a couple of replies. There have been many who are now going to pay more attention than I did and hopefully save a bunch of headaches.

[slikside]

Thanks for posting/starting this thread.....really sorry to hear about your motor.

Got me thinking about the oil I've been using...Castrol GTX High Milage, it's a blend.

Just called Castrol today and found out that oil is NOT recommended for my original/stock '72 c10 350. I figured "high milage"...that's me! Wrong!

Castrol Edge Syntec is a full synthetic with a higher zinc/zddp formulation specifically for older vehicles.

So is the Valvolene VR1, but it comes as a coventional oil as well.

While I've been using the GTX HM for over a year, I think I've only put about 3-400 miles on it....and it was running strong when I last drove it....
But I'm not even going to start the engine again until I change the oil to one better suited for my engine. Be it synthetic or conventional.

[sleepingbag]

Originally Posted by stich626

ok if you say so...
good luck with that..

It is true. The adpacks in all other oils are almost exactly the same. Just sayin, but keep on arguing, if thats what floats your boat man!

[C20-67_N_MO]

Last oil change I added the ZDDP Plus I bougth from Eastwood Company.

http://www.eastwood.com/zddp-plus-oi...ve-3-pack.html

[RenoKeene]

Originally Posted by C20-67_N_MO

Last oil change I added the ZDDP Plus I bougth from Eastwood Company.

http://www.eastwood.com/zddp-plus-oi...ve-3-pack.html

Just found this additive at CarQuest Lucas Engine Break-in Oil Additive, TB ZINC-PLUS
"Addition of 16oz to 4.5 quarts motor oil will achieve approximately 5,000 ppm of Zinc"
$13.99

Just wanted to let you know that you don't have to get it thru the mail.

[RenoKeene]

Originally Posted by pumpkin

Roller cam has nothing to do with the valve covers,,,roller rockers do. And even though its nice to go full roller, the rockers don't seem to be a problem,,,,at least not now,,,,till they change **** on us next time around.

You are correct sir...I should have expounded on what I ment by "roller setup".
Thanks.

This thread opened my eyes wide...all my other motors are full roller...including the Nascar Bush Cup 9:1 358 we have in the race car. I had no idea what ZDDP was. I do now. Thanks again to this forum and to Mike for this post.

[406 Q-ship]

The cams in the 260 HP GM crate engines are not welded reground. They are pi$$ poorly cast new ones with porosity. The Mexican Goodwrench/Targetmaster back in the early 1980s had issues of cam failure due to the hone on the lifter bores (I honed more than a few after they killed the cam), the later engines did not have the lifter bore problems.

[Mike Bradbury]

According to the guys at Crower, a 25hp gain can be achieved by upgrading to the roller rocker set up because of the reduced friction in the valve trian. I figure that now is the time to up grade so I do not have to worry about what the EPA mandates about ZDDP content.
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[stich626]

Originally Posted by sleepingbag

It is true. The adpacks in all other oils are almost exactly the same. Just sayin, but keep on arguing, if thats what floats your boat man!

because of emmission controls, ALL on road oils lost it's zinc, (government mandated) heavy deisel oil lost it next..
your amsoil and r/p are no different..
unless you buy the off road only.. racing oil..

the r/p rep. flat out said there oil for street use isn't a good idea with flat tappets.. guess he has no clue