Rod knock on an engine with 4000 miles??????

[highperf4x4]

Oh btw, just for the record, any pickup and especially a performance motor should have a high volume oil pump. In fact, even if I do a stock rebuild, I use a high volume pump.

[americanmusc1e]

OK, I pulled the intake, I definitely have a flat lobe on #2 exhaust, but the lifter was not worn through. couldn't find any copper looking stuff in the intake valley (copper is not an easy color to look for in a red intake valley), did find some oil with metal in it sitting in the intake valley, but the oil itself looks pretty good. I haven't inspected it yet(that's next).

could the problems I'm having be coming from the valvetrain (even the low oil pressure???)????

[highperf4x4]

The low oil pressure would be coming from the crankshaft. Mostly the mains but the rods too.

The oil will look good. It's still fresh oil it's just full of metal shavings so now it's more like sandpaper than a lubricant.

If you took your finger and smeared it around in the oil laying in the lifter valley (especially the low spots) then the copper shavings will be on the end of your finger. You'll be able to tell the difference between copper and any other metallic flake in the motor. It looks copper, the rest look silver.

I swear to freakin god you just told me that your lifter valley was painted red!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Someone needs to be shot. Either you or your engine builder.

NEVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE PAINT ANY INTERNAL AREA OF ANY ENGINE. If you meant something else ( I can't imagine what) by "it's red" then my bad, otherwise....

[highperf4x4]

Btw, that cylinder with the flat cam lobe would be making a knocking sound for a couple of reasons, 1. MAJOR valve lash 2. The exhaust can't get out if the valve doesn't open far enough. It will pop when the intake opens.

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by americanmusc1e

could the problems I'm having be coming from the valvetrain (even the low oil pressure???)????

Dude, your engine is shot. Period. There is nothing else I can tell you. It has to come out and you have to start from square one. Goodluck.

[americanmusc1e]

OK I'm really depressed, tried to adjust the valves and my #2 intake pushrod disappeared. pulled the intake back off and found it in two pieces. My Engine looks like its shot, but I don't have enough money to rebuild it.

[special-K]

Glycol is red.

Man,I was hoping for the best.I`m real sorry to hear this.

[highperf4x4]

That sucks dude but it is what it is. Just get headed in the direction of another build. Jerk it out, tear it down, see what can be re-used. Toss the cam, the lifters, the pushrods, AND the rocker arms in the trash.

Check your crank for grooves in the rod and main journals and check the bearings as well. If you see any grooves in the crank or your bearings are showing copper then you probably need to turn the crank again. Pistons/Rings and cylinders should be fine if you're strapped for cash but new rings wouldn't hurt. Cam bearings should be ok. Timing chain should be okay too. You will need to flush the heads really good and have the block vatted to get all the metal shavings out of the tight spots.

It won't cost you nearly as much as a new build would mainly because you don't need to do any machine work.

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by special-K

Glycol is red.

hahaha, antifreeze in the lifter valley???!!!!

Dude, don't jinx him. He's suffered enough already.

[chevymad]

I think special K meant glyptol, which is an acceptable coating for the inside of a motor. If a cam lobe is flat, and theres metal in the oil, all the bearings will most likely be shot. Been there. Cam bearings will need to come out too, they'll be worn AND they'll be hiding metal shavings behind them. High volume pump is almost never needed in a sb chevy unless you've set your bearing clearances waaay too loose.

I was able to re-use my timing set, crank, pistons/rods, and heads when I lost my cam. Everything else was a loss. 50k mile motor running mobil 1. This new oil spec is crap!

You'll want to run rifle brushes through every oil galley in that block, or the metal thats in there will tear up the motor again.

Sucks, I know, did this all last year myself.

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by chevymad

I think special K meant glyptol, which is an acceptable coating for the inside of a motor. If a cam lobe is flat, and theres metal in the oil, all the bearings will most likely be shot. Been there. Cam bearings will need to come out too, they'll be worn AND they'll be hiding metal shavings behind them. High volume pump is almost never needed in a sb chevy unless you've set your bearing clearances waaay too loose.

I was able to re-use my timing set, crank, pistons/rods, and heads when I lost my cam. Everything else was a loss. 50k mile motor running mobil 1. This new oil spec is crap!

You'll want to run rifle brushes through every oil galley in that block, or the metal thats in there will tear up the motor again.

Sucks, I know, did this all last year myself.

Actually it's Glyptal with an "a" but I still don't use it. I believe it changes heat reduction in the iron as it "insulates" it from the oil, but that's my own opinion. If you're going to use it you need to do it right after the engine is vatted or bead blasted or it doesn't stick.

As for the bearings, (main's/rods) I would NEVER re-use them no matter what the circumstances are. However an "inspection" of their condition (grooves or showing copper core) can tell you whether or not the crank needs to be turned again. However, if your crank is at .040/.040 already then look for another one if it's damaged.

The cam bearings are a different story. They don't need to be replaced unless you can see something wrong with one of them. Once the block is disassembled get your mirror and flashlight and have a look. The engine I built for my 4x4 2 years ago has cam bearings that have been through 4 different cams. The engine was originally in my old 76 chevy and I only changed the cam bearings when I built it for that truck. And yes, one of those cams was a failed break-in. I've been there too.

As for cleaning the metal out of the block, I'd leave that to the machine shop when they vat it. It's impossible to get it all yourself.

[special-K]

Yeah,that`s what I meant.I forgot to remember the name.

Is this a large journal steel crank 327?Hoping the crank stood up w/o needing down another notch.

Just in January one coldass morning my crate motor blew.A main web cracked at a cap bolt,cap was loose,and crank broke.50,000 miles out of $8,600...it hurts.I feel your pain,Sometimes even doing the right thing isn`t enough.Go figure...

[highperf4x4]

Originally Posted by special-K

Just in January one coldass morning my crate motor blew.A main web cracked at a cap bolt,cap was loose,and crank broke.50,000 miles out of $8,600...it hurts.I feel your pain,Sometimes even doing the right thing isn`t enough.Go figure...

Now THAT....... would suck!

[highperf4x4]

One more note, any motor, small block or not that isn't "stock" or is being used in a pickup/van/suv should have a high volume oil pump. Extra heat is generated by the crankshaft under heavy load or high rpm and caps/bolts will expand/stretch. You need the extra pressure to keep plenty of oil in those journals.

[monte0185]

So far everything I have read is mostly true but I have to add a couple things. If you put the block in a VAT at a machine shop they HAVE to pull the cam bearings and replace them. Main reason for this is that the acid in the vat will melt anything that is not steel or Iron. 2nd is I never do a rebuild without replacing cam bearing cause this is the first place you will loose oil pressure. Oil pumps high volume or not if its not a performance rebuild and your not turning 6k rpm's on a regular basis a standard oil pump is just fine.

Oh and the reason I know these things is I have worked at a machine shop for a couple years on the side for some extra money. I still have the same guy do all my engine work cause i know and trust him. Of course everything about cars is open to interpretation.

[chevymad]

I've got a standard volume pump that keeps 85psi of cold pressure at 1200rpm. Which is actually too high. Its 40psi hot idle. I'm using 10w30 royal purple. Oil pressure was actually higher with mobil 1. If you want pressure change the pump spring, you only need volume when you have large bearing clearances.

I know I won't change your mind, but putting the info out there.

And vatting the block will not remove the metal from inside the galleys. And most machine shops won't do it either. You need to take it yourself and wash/brush out every galley.

Another reason for changing the cam bearings, the same oil that is full of metal, that ate the mains/rods, also went through the cam bearings. Even looking ok, have you measured the clearance?

[highperf4x4]

Guys I'm gonna back out of this one. It looks to me like we're just headed for an argument in the middle of this dudes thread and that's only going to confuse him. I've been building performance engines for over 20 years so I'm pretty thick headed about my opinions.

Best of luck to everyone though. We do it because we love it.

americanmuscle, if you need any help or just want to ask a question pm me ok?

[americanmusc1e]

thanks guys, I called the machinist that did the motor and he agreed that the motor was probably gone. but he said occasionally you can change the cam and the oil and the bearings will be fine. Just for grins, I'm gonna stick a used lifter and pushrod in it and see if the the oil pressure improves. probably not, but if it does, I'll stick a new cam in it and see how it does.

If it needs a rebuild. I'm not gonna reuse the crank, I'm gonna put a SCAT 3.75" 9000series crank, good rods and forged pistons in it. (I know it will cost more but I wanted to do this last time and didn't do it, then I kicked myself for not building a 383)

Hopefully my vortec heads will not need any work

[highperf4x4]

You got spunk! I like that!

[monte0185]

Good luck!! Sounds like its gonna be a fun build. A 383 is gonna be my next build think im going with twin turbo's though.

highperf4x4
I just wanted to say that you sound like you know what your talking about and I pretty much agree with everything you say. We all have our difference of opinions on the way things are done but that dosent mean any one of them is wrong just different. Please feel free to add your opinion as not all of us are experts and all of us have something to learn that we might not have know previously. I know I appreciate it. just didnt want anyone to think I'm not open to advice.

[mr48chev]

If the lobe is flat on the cam the cam is SHOT and putting a used lifter on it will just cause more grief. There is no need or reason to try to run the engine until after it has been checked out and repaired. These things just don't magically heal up on their own.

I understand the red coating on the inside of the valley cover. It is done by a number of engine builders who feel it allows the oil to flow smoother across the surface and back down into the pan.

I am not a believer in putting Marvel Mystery or any other snake oil in a new engine. A good high quality engine oil should have everything the engine needs as far as lubrication needs if it is in good condition to begin with.

Marvel Mystery oil is generally used in old engines that have been sitting for a long time and have sticking valves or stuck rings in an attempt to free those up. Some guys regularly use it as an additive during oil changes in newer engines but usually in small quantities of about a half pint or less, pretty much the same quantity as the old Bardal top oil in the 50's and 60's. Older guys especially in the Pacific Northwest will remember that and their adds and the old Miss Bardal hydroplane.

At the very least I would suggest replacing the cam and lifters (you have to do tht at any rate) and pulling the oil pan, clean it out and check the rod an main bearings for damage from metal particles.

[chevymad]

Put in my 3d on this too. Quit driving it and take it out before its all trash.

We all have mostly minor differences of opinion on how to build a motor, but pretty much agree yours has major problems. Time to tear her down and see just whats up.

[americanmusc1e]

all right, that's what I was thinking too. but I know I'm gonna get flak from my Dad about this.

I'll post a link to a build thread when I get one started

[highperf4x4]

Do that. Can't wait to see that 383!!

[monte0185]

Originally Posted by americanmusc1e

all right, that's what I was thinking too. but I know I'm gonna get flak from my Dad about this.

Been there done that and so have most of us Im sure. You just have to take it and keep rollin. It comes with the territory!! Best of luck!!