CPP notch problems with quality...round 2

[dv8customs]

Originally Posted by N2TRUX

This still sounds like a CPP witch hunt to me.

[SCOTI]

I disagree. I would not have been happy w/that notch myself.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by N2TRUX

So this test is going to show how a notch makes the frame weaker. How is it going to show the "CPP" notch makes it weaker or stronger than any other brand of notch? Unless you plan to test each one on the market it seems your only proving that c-notching a frame will make it weaker.

This still sounds like a CPP witch hunt to me.

Its strictly their bolt in notch vs stock frame strength. No others will be compared. People here seem to think that the bolt in notch is just as strong as the stock frame. Just wondering if that is true or not. Not sure if there is a way to figure in if its 1/2 welded and whether it will lose strength or not.

Not only do I actually care about the strength of the frame after the notch, but this has become a vendetta against all the people who told me to just shut up and bolt it on. Not against CPP. People like Shane who tried to make me look like an idiot and acted like he knew everything. People who said "just trust me" with no evidence to back their opinion

[dv8customs]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

People here seem to think that the bolt in notch is just as strong as the stock frame.

Have you contacted any notch vendors to see what there claims are regarding notch strength compared to a stock frame? Seems that would be the way to go as opposed to having people run an analysis for you. The makers of these notches should be doing these calculations anyway so it should easy for them to tell you how the strength compares. I don't recall anyone vendors advertising there notches as making the frame as strong as stock.

[basemodel67]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

Its strictly their bolt in notch vs stock frame strength. No others will be compared. People here seem to think that the bolt in notch is just as strong as the stock frame. Just wondering if that is true or not. Not sure if there is a way to figure in if its 1/2 welded and whether it will lose strength or not.

Not only do I actually care about the strength of the frame after the notch, but this has become a vendetta against all the people who told me to just shut up and bolt it on. Not against CPP. People like Shane who tried to make me look like an idiot and acted like he knew everything. People who said "just trust me" with no evidence to back their opinion

I will go start the grill. How do you like your crow cooked? I think you are gonna be eating a lot of it if in fact you do get an UNBIASED third party test. I am not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I don't see how bolting a notch on like the one you got, will make the frame weaker. Even if the bent notch insert isn't welded perfectly, the rest of the structure should be more than strong enough to compensate for the bite taken out of the factory frame... which isn't very strong to begin with.

P.S. - Either way, this is a good thread. At least it seems to be waking up the suspension forum, which has kinda been a Dropmember lovefest lately... not that there is anything wrong with that... Nate makes great stuff! And 8mpg, I hope you don't think I'm attacking you, I just like to debate a little.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by dv8customs

Have you contacted any notch vendors to see what there claims are regarding notch strength compared to a stock frame? Seems that would be the way to go as opposed to having people run an analysis for you. The makers of these notches should be doing these calculations anyway so it should easy for them to tell you how the strength compares. I don't recall anyone vendors advertising there notches as making the frame as strong as stock.

The obvious company replied to the other thread and you can read their replies above. Do they claim to be strong as the stock frame? No. CPPJeff simply said, that he has NEVER had a failure to his knowledge and that his statement should ease my mind on the strength of the bracket. Then his engineer said you cannot weld the inside, which is incorrect.

Im not trying to bad mouth CPP's engineers, but do you really listen to the engineer that said you cant weld the inside of the notch when clearly you can and there is more than enough room to do it? I feel that an outside opinion would ease my mind better than a company that sells a product.

I questioned their product quality and strength but the manufacturer and sales company of the product did not offer any type of factual information related to their product. They didnt offer any analysis of their product as far as computer testing. Is their product even computer tested?

I will not drag any other companies products into this thread as far as questioning their strength or quality because I have never put my hands on one. This simply has to do with one product, one manufacturer.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by basemodel67

I will go start the grill. How do you like your crow cooked? I think you are gonna be eating a lot of it if in fact you do get an UNBIASED third party test. I am not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I don't see how bolting a notch on like the one you got, will make the frame weaker. Even if the bent notch insert isn't welded perfectly, the rest of the structure should be more than strong enough to compensate for the bite taken out of the factory frame... which isn't very strong to begin with.

P.S. - Either way, this is a good thread. At least it seems to be waking up the suspension forum, which has kinda been a Dropmember lovefest lately... not that there is anything wrong with that... Nate makes great stuff! And 8mpg, I hope you don't think I'm attacking you, I just like to debate a little.

Its cool... please read the pipe notch thread. I have typed a general consensus about the results a couple times now but I dont think many people have bothered to even look at it.

Quick tid bits from the thread:
A simple pipe notch like below that has a 4" outer diamter and 1/4" wall thickness with great penetration and welding skill like the picture below would net a 75% DECREASE in frame strength. Thus, the frame has 25% of its strength from the factory frame. I would have never guess...this is what made me really start thinking about the strength of the bracket


Now if you box the frame with 1/4" plate steel that follows the contour of the notch and again boxes the frame, the load analysis said it has 75% the strength of the original frame. Thats pretty good. I would ASSUME (I know this can bite me in the butt) that a boxed frame would be stronger than a doubled wall setup like the CPP bracket. While 75% is pretty good, it's amazing how a 1/8" 5" tall C channel is stronger than a boxed and notched frame.



Oh, and just for the record... I HOPE IM WRONG ABOUT THE CPP BRACKET NOT BEING AS STRONG AS THE ORIGINAL FRAME! I want it to be strong as or stronger for my own sake. We will see.

[dv8customs]

It is important to remember that Jeff is a sales guy. Who knows how long he has been there, maybe he hasn't heard of a failure. Obviously all you have to go on is what they tell you but I am not sure that the engineer told him it could not be welded from the inside. It is likely that either he did not convey your question properly to the engineer or that he did not properly relay the engineers response. I say all this because I am an engineer and work with my companies sales guys every day and they do not always do the best job of accurately communicating information. I wouldn't expect them to provide you any sort of analysis but they should be able to say within a reasonable amount how there part affects the structural integrity of the frame.

[dv8customs]

That threaded you mentioned above showed the stock frame had a minimum Safety Factor of 1.3774 and the notched frame had a Safety Factor of .79139. That is a decrease of only 43% not 75% as stated. The notched and boxed frame shows a minimum Safety Factor of 1.022 which is a decrease of 26% from stock.

As you can see these numbers still show a decrease in strength which is why aftermarket units, such as CPP's are not simply weld in pieces of pipe. They are 1/4" thick sheets of steel that wrap around the frame to make up for the strength that has been lost due to the notch being cut out.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by dv8customs

It is important to remember that Jeff is a sales guy. Who knows how long he has been there, maybe he hasn't heard of a failure. Obviously all you have to go on is what they tell you but I am not sure that the engineer told him it could not be welded from the inside. It is likely that either he did not convey your question properly to the engineer or that he did not properly relay the engineers response. I say all this because I am an engineer and work with my companies sales guys every day and they do not always do the best job of accurately communicating information. I wouldn't expect them to provide you any sort of analysis but they should be able to say within a reasonable amount how there part affects the structural integrity of the frame.

Thanks for the reply.. I completely agree with you that the message could have been translated incorrectly, but doubt that it is due to the simplicity of the question. Can the inside seams be welded....

Now Im not trying to drag him in here, but he has yet to try and respond to this much less correct his misstatements. His statement was actually along the lines of there has NEVER been a single failure in 15 years. Has he been there that long or is it simply hearsay? I gave him the benefit of the doubt and took it has he has never heard of one. I honestly dont think CPP cares what I have to say...Im just the guy who bought a single item from them. The "say" on the reasonable amount of structural integrity was

Originally Posted by CPPJeff

Although i can see you might have some concern i am telling you it fine go ahead and install it. There are kits on the market where people have copied our notch aand they dont even fit the frame and that kind of stuff would concern me but this notch is a nice fit and will not let you down. Hope this helps kinda release those jitters and continue the install.

and to top it off...other companies prodcuts are worse

Originally Posted by CPPJeff

Ok so here is the skinny, YOU CANNOT WELD THE INSIDE OF THE NOTCH. My Engineer said that some vendors make them in 3/16" plate and he has seen an issue with those breaking but we make our kits in 1/4" plate and WE HAVE NEVER had an issue with our kits in 15 years, if there was a reason to weld the inside we would most certainly do that.

The other thread is located here to see all of CPPJeff's replies about their product.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=402358

[Shane]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

People like Shane who tried to make me look like an idiot ...

don't blame that crap on me ... you accomplished that all by yourself.

Now, if you don't want my input, then my advice to you is to leave my name out of your juvenile CPP witch-hunt.

I haven't replied to any of your whack-job paranoid posts in this thread until you brought me into it.

Like the old saying goes: "If you don't want $hit, then don't start $hit."

Um-kay kiddo?

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by Shane

don't blame that crap on me ... you accomplished that all by yourself.

LOL...thanks man. We will hopefully see who is wrong soon

[Dieselwrencher]

Now let me ask you this............. if the boxed notch is still weaker than a factory frame, could a guy add 2 gussets that were adjacent from the center out of the notch and welded in and make this area stronger?

[8mpg]

Adding gussets will help the strength I believe. Now Im still tryin go see where you are trying to put them.

Now the fun part is that is where Im running my fuel and brake line

[Dieselwrencher]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

Adding gussets will help the strength I believe. Now Im still tryin go see where you are trying to put them.

Now the fun part is that is where Im running my fuel and brake line

I was thinking of putting a gusset at about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the frame on the tube notch and have that gusset go from top to bottom and inside to outside. Then duplicate this to the other side of the notch. I'd think it would be plenty strong.

Put the brake lines and fuel lines on the outside of the inside of the newly boxed portion.

[8mpg]

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

I was thinking of putting a gusset at about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the frame on the tube notch and have that gusset go from top to bottom and inside to outside. Then duplicate this to the other side of the notch. I'd think it would be plenty strong.

Put the brake lines and fuel lines on the outside of the inside of the newly boxed portion.

That would help..not sure if that is the ultimate place for the guesset....but again, Im not sure. Its better than nothing. The thign that has stopped me from welding it in is I might go with a step notch later.

Hell, honestly I would be better off just building a whole damn frame from scratch. But that is another story and another build.

[Dieselwrencher]

I hear you there. I have been in your shoes and figured out it was just better off for me to build a complete new chassis and new car and just leave my one I have alone for now. Because once you start changing things, it will effect a lot of other things and I figured I'd be money and time ahead to build a new one. it will be nicer and more light weight with any luck.

[CPPJEFF]

Guys i appologize for getting to this topic AGAIN late. I am just a salesguy 100% true but i would never steer you guys in the wrong direction. if there was an issue with the integrity of a part i would not sell it to you. I have literally sold 1000's of these kits and never had one come back cracked or anything like that. Seriously there is no issue with the part if you want to weld the inside up after you install it feel free to do that, at this point CPP has no intentions of re-inventing the wheel on something that has worked for years with a tremendous amount of success. I will try to get the engineer to join in on this topic but truthfully there is no topic to talk about. Again i thought i was clear the first time but my appologies we are reliving this. Actually the concerns are well taken but there is not an issue.

[dv8customs]

Jeff, do you guys have any numbers on how this affects towing? Would you say that your towing capacity would remain the same as stock with this kit or would there be some negative impact? That seems to be his main concern here...

[DKN]

OK guys I’m here to try and help you understand what you’re looking at.

It seams that most of you are under the assumption that the limiting factor of the C-notch strength is the weld. I have only seen a couple of them fail and it was not down the length of the weld. The parts made from 3/16” steel failed vertically top to bottom across the thinnest section, NOT down the weld. (Look at the FEA image posted earlier.)

The only failures I have ever seen have been on 3/16” parts. We make ours from 1/4” steel. I have never had 1 break that was made from 1/4” steel.

Years ago we had a vendor change our design. This caused the part to fit poorly, and they changed to 3/16” steel. They made the changes with out our permission. As a result that vendor no longer provides any service for CPP.

We stand behind our products 100%.

If you need to cut your frame because you want to lower your truck you should under stand you will make the frame weaker. The truck’s towing and cargo capacity will be reduced. You can add our C-notch kit to help limit the strength reduction; however do not expect that this simple bolt in aid will provide 100% of the original strength or cargo and towing capacity.

We do not weld down the inside of the bracket to help ensure a good fit. If the weld was too large and interfered there would be another thread accusing us of making bad parts that do not need to be welded there any way.

We try to build a quality part for a good price. You can always pay some one more to add extra gussets, etc. When is it strong enough? We have not had any fail when made from 1/4” steel. We have sold 1,000’s of these over many years. All this is about some ones guess that these will break, but NONE have actually broken.

Sincerely, Danny Nix
CPP

[orange71]

So i was one in a thousand that wasnt so lucky?

[DKN]

Originally Posted by orange71

So i was one in a thousand that wasnt so lucky?

Didn't you say you had a 3/16" thick part purchased at a swap meet? Can you PM me with the details of you failure, and a maybe a reciept. I'm not in sales So I can not exchange a part. I would like to see why it cracked and if it was made by me, one of my vendors, or some one else.

Danny Nix
CPP

[Liz]

Originally Posted by 8mpg

Its strictly their bolt in notch vs stock frame strength. No others will be compared. People here seem to think that the bolt in notch is just as strong as the stock frame. Just wondering if that is true or not. Not sure if there is a way to figure in if its 1/2 welded and whether it will lose strength or not.

Not only do I actually care about the strength of the frame after the notch, but this has become a vendetta against all the people who told me to just shut up and bolt it on. Not against CPP. People like Shane who tried to make me look like an idiot and acted like he knew everything. People who said "just trust me" with no evidence to back their opinion

and once again you are trolling and creating a pissing match.. I am not closing this one.. but do it again and your account will be suspended. FINAL warning

[dv8customs]

Originally Posted by DKN

If you need to cut your frame because you want to lower your truck you should under stand you will make the frame weaker. The truck’s towing and cargo capacity will be reduced. You can add our C-notch kit to help limit the strength reduction; however do not expect that this simple bolt in aid will provide 100% of the original strength or cargo and towing capacity.

We do not weld down the inside of the bracket to help ensure a good fit. CPP

Well there are both questions answered. The towing capacity will be reduced (they never claimed otherwise so I am not certain how that initially came up) and welding the outside edge of the part is sufficient.

[orange71]

i Purchased the notch in 2003 at the pomona swap meet from the cpp booth. i brought it back after i noticed the crack and showed them everything. I was told that you guys were supplied the wrong material and that i was goin to receive a new set of notches that were made out of 1/4. i called and called and was always given a different excuse untill finally they forgot all about me. I gave up trying and just decided i would never reccomend cpp or use another part. I dont need a refund, its too late for that. I just wanted to let everyone know that i had a problem that was never taken care of.