NV4500 swap is underway

[snj8198]

Larry,

[DirtyLarry]

Steve,

That is perfect! I’ll take it!

Progress is being made albeit slower than I would like. Saturday my buddy got the passenger’s side floorboard and cab support patch panels all welded up while I wasted a boat load of time messing around trying to fit the ZF pump and hydrobooster lines. As it turns out, the ZF power steering pump assembly is bigger than my ambition to start cutting up the frame to make it fit. The ZF pump with the GM style adapter bracket makes the pump sit 3 inches lower than the stock P/S pump, which would drive the pulley right into the frame. That said, the ZF pump plan got canned as well as the huge class 8 truck P/S reservoir. The bummer was I had to pull the radiator out to gain access to the p/s pump pulley in order to remove it to get the pump off. Only to reinstall it a few minutes later once the ZF pump didn’t fit. The 8.1L package makes everything a pretty tight fit where 10 things have to be moved to gain access to one thing.



The plan now is to use the original p/s pump with OE style hydroboost hoses with a T in the return side being the original pump only has 1 return port. Of course that project, turned into a fiasco as well being the fitting on the hydrobooster is metric while the steering gear is standard so one hose had to be reworked. I am still waiting for the other hose to show up at Napa tomorrow.

Other than that, I installed the Super Bright LED bulbs in the cluster and the seats are getting dropped off at the upholstery shop tomorrow. Probably stab the transmission and tcase in sometime this week so I can start measuring the shafts to get them ready to be dropped off at the driveline shop. Next weekend we’ll start cutting up the floor and cab support on the driver’s side to get it ready for patch panel then it will be off to the Rhino Lining shop to have the interior floor sprayed.

Oh, yeah…I found the original grill brackets and an original 1977/78 Scottsdale grill in my attic that I scored a few years ago. I am kind of tired the 80’s chrome tube grill and anxious to see how the truck will look wearing it’s factory face again.

[MTCK]

Lookin good! Those are some of the more affordable LED's I've seen. Do they still work with the dimmer?

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by MTCK

Lookin good! Those are some of the more affordable LED's I've seen. Do they still work with the dimmer?

Dunno yet

Another buddy just put some of these in his S10 and told me about them. They work great in the S10 but I doubt they will work with the dimmer. Prolly just be like an on/off switch. We'll see. Heck, they might not even work at all.

These are the ones I got. http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-b...-x5.htm#photos

[jbclassix]

Hmmmm... what hydroboost are you using? can you post some pictures of the h-boost and the ports? This is an area I amy be able to help you out in!

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by jbclassix

Hmmmm... what hydroboost are you using? can you post some pictures of the h-boost and the ports? This is an area I amy be able to help you out in!

Actually, it is the same hydrobooster that we are used to seeing in GM trucks. The difference is 1981 and newer hydroboosters have metric fittings (M16 & M18) whereas the older ones had standard fittings (3/8 & 7/16). Really, it didn’t matter which hydrobooster I went with because one hose would have to be converted to a basterd anyway being the late model p/s pump has metric fittings and the steering gear is standard. So, either I went with a standard thread hydrobooster and rework the hose for the p/s pump or use the metric hydrobooster and rework the p/s hose that goes to the steering gear. Same deal either way.

We solved the problem Saturday by cutting the metric tube nut off the booster to gear hose then added a standard tube nut and reflared it. Same deal that I had to do when I first installed this exact late model p/s pump on Gen VI 454HO that I installed back in 2003. Just one of the hassles of these type custom dealeos. Thanks for the offer though.

[jbclassix]

Good! Hope it wasn't too much of a headache! One question, is your 8.1L set any further back than what was originally in your truck, I kinda wanna see where your shifter ends up being located.

[DirtyLarry]

The 8.1L sits in the same spot as the 454 and 350 before it. Even used the same engine mounts. Didn’t even have to do any exhaust work going from the 454 to the 8.1L

Hoping to get the trans stabbed this week so we’ll know soon where the shift tower will end up.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by jbclassix

Good! Hope it wasn't too much of a headache! One question, is your 8.1L set any further back than what was originally in your truck, I kinda wanna see where your shifter ends up being located.

Here tis…..

465 before it came out


465


NV4500. Looks as though the shift tower sits back about 4 inches.








I am not happy with the AA 205 shifter bracket being the floor will have to be hacked up to make room for the lever so I have an email into ORD to have a twin stick made. Not that I really want a twin stick, I just want the lever to land in a nice spot and not wobble all over the place.

[jbclassix]

Are you happy with where the shift knob is? It will be a relief if I don't have to do too much modification to get it in a comfortable and good looking location in my 70.

205 shift lever... I had thought about making my own bracket to locate the shifter where I wanted it... its a little more fab but I am NOT going to even consider a twin stick. It just wouldnt look right. On IH pick-ups they had divorced 205s, the shifter was mounted on a bracket off the frame and it had a tierod that went back to the t-case

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by jbclassix

Are you happy with where the shift knob is? It will be a relief if I don't have to do too much modification to get it in a comfortable and good looking location in my 70.

205 shift lever... I had thought about making my own bracket to locate the shifter where I wanted it... its a little more fab but I am NOT going to even consider a twin stick. It just wouldnt look right. On IH pick-ups they had divorced 205s, the shifter was mounted on a bracket off the frame and it had a tierod that went back to the t-case

Won’t really know until I get the seats back from the upholstery shop and bolted in. From eyeballing the shifter, it looks to be in a decent location so far. I wasn’t keen on a twin stick either until I saw how this AA shifter deal was going to work out. I would rather have an ORD twin stick than deal with the AA or fab my own. I have 100% faith in ORD products.

[Dieselwrencher]

Larry, it's looking great! That really stinks about the ZF pump not fitting.

[snj8198]

i've got an ORD twin stick that i'll install when i do the body work. looks like good craftsmanship.

do you have a bench or buckets Larry?

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by snj8198

i've got an ORD twin stick that i'll install when i do the body work. looks like good craftsmanship.

do you have a bench or buckets Larry?

Yeah, I talked with Steve Watson today at ORD and they have a nice twin stick kit that will work well behind the NV4500. I have a lot of their parts already (rear shackle flip, rear HD shackles, front shackles, sway bar disconnect, steering box brace and HD engine crossmember) and have been impressed with their service and quality. I could really careless about a twin stick shifter as I have yet to be in a position where I think it would have helped…..but, I like the position and durability of their twin stick kit over the AA POS.

The seats are buckets picked from a 1991 Suburban. Installed them a couple years ago but they are light gray and way off in color from the rest of the interior so I have had them covered up with Cabala’s seat covers since then. The fabric is actually in really nice shape under the seat covers but they are broken down quite a bit and the arm rests are toast. Since everything is apart might as well get them redone so they match everything else. Going all vinyl with fabric down the center and pockets sewed into the seat backs (Need a place to store more crap when we are the trail). Might even do a “GM Powertrain Vortec 8100” logo in the seat back if this guy can convert the media logos I have from my work to a usable format for his embroidery machine. Basically, the same logo that is on the engine cover. The interior pictures with the bucket seats before the tear down are on page 1 of this tread.

[skoffice]

Wow you really have a great thread going here! Nice to see exactly how this is done! My friend and I have been talking about doing this in his pickup but weren't too sure if the AA kit was worth it or not. Seems like it's not as easy as it should be for the price huh? Also I like the engine you have in there, what kind of mileage do you get with the 8.1?

Just a little info I gathered when doing my hydroboost setup, I was told by my buddy (builds lots of LS based buggys) that the stock GM P-pump will be more than enough to handle the hydroboost system, but putting a good cooler on it is the key. Also if you do want to go with an upgraded pump the TC pump is the way to go, and it will handle hydro assist if you decide to do that in the future. I put a larger pulley on my TC just to keep the pressures down a little at since they are rated at something like 1300 psi and the stock GM boxes usually only have something like 850 going to them. We used Howe Performance for all of our power steering products and they are just flat out awesome.

Just thought I'd share some of that with you, and great work! Cant wait to see this done! Bummer about the t-case shifter

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by skoffice

Wow you really have a great thread going here! Nice to see exactly how this is done! My friend and I have been talking about doing this in his pickup but weren't too sure if the AA kit was worth it or not. Seems like it's not as easy as it should be for the price huh? Also I like the engine you have in there, what kind of mileage do you get with the 8.1?

Just a little info I gathered when doing my hydroboost setup, I was told by my buddy (builds lots of LS based buggys) that the stock GM P-pump will be more than enough to handle the hydroboost system, but putting a good cooler on it is the key. Also if you do want to go with an upgraded pump the TC pump is the way to go, and it will handle hydro assist if you decide to do that in the future. I put a larger pulley on my TC just to keep the pressures down a little at since they are rated at something like 1300 psi and the stock GM boxes usually only have something like 850 going to them. We used Howe Performance for all of our power steering products and they are just flat out awesome.

Just thought I'd share some of that with you, and great work! Cant wait to see this done! Bummer about the t-case shifter

Thanks!

I never checked the fuel mileage but it is definitely better than the carbureted 350 and 454 before it. My 2001 Silverado with an 8.1L gets around 10-13 MPG and my other 6.0L Silverado doesn’t do any better.

I agree, the original pump is more than capable of handling hydroboost. I just wanted the ZF pump in case I go the route of a hydraulic winch. These exact commercial grade HD ZF pumps are also used as standalone pumps on wrecker bodies, small dump beds, etc Thanks for the info! I keep those guys in mind.

[jonessmc87]

Larry, I'm glad you're doing this right before I am. I have a 89 v3500 with the th400/205 combo behind the 454 and the 7 hour ride back and forth to college at 60 mph is getting old, not just for me but for my engine. I bought a nv4500 from a 98 GMC so I can swap the input shaft when I have the opportunity to dump a cummins in it. The trans came with the bellhousing, so I figured I'd get a flywheel for the 2 piece rear-main 454 and a pressure plate for the internal slave cylinder like the 98 bellhousing is set up for. I managed to score the stock hydro clutch/brake pedal assembly off craigslist and I bought this http://advanceadapters.com/product/5401/50-6910.html
for an adapter between the nv4500 and the 205.
Just curious if you had any words of wisdom before I tackle this.

O, and are your shifter measurements from the firewall? Maybe I didn't read carefully enough but I didn't see where the front of your tape measure is.

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by jonessmc87

Larry, I'm glad you're doing this right before I am. I have a 89 v3500 with the th400/205 combo behind the 454 and the 7 hour ride back and forth to college at 60 mph is getting old, not just for me but for my engine. I bought a nv4500 from a 98 GMC so I can swap the input shaft when I have the opportunity to dump a cummins in it. The trans came with the bellhousing, so I figured I'd get a flywheel for the 2 piece rear-main 454 and a pressure plate for the internal slave cylinder like the 98 bellhousing is set up for. I managed to score the stock hydro clutch/brake pedal assembly off craigslist and I bought this http://advanceadapters.com/product/5401/50-6910.html
for an adapter between the nv4500 and the 205.
Just curious if you had any words of wisdom before I tackle this.

O, and are your shifter measurements from the firewall? Maybe I didn't read carefully enough but I didn't see where the front of your tape measure is.

That sounds like a nice plan. I have an internal slave type bellhousing lying around as well but I am not a big fan of that design as I have seen too many internal slaves leak ruining clutch disks. The internal slaves are also famous for causing stiff pedals when the fluid gets super hot when working the truck hard in hot weather. Even my 2001 HD with the ZF 6 speed gets a hard pedal when pulling trailers on a hot day. Being my ’78 K10 sees a lot of desert off-roading action in the summer I didn’t want to run the risk of overheating the internal slave causing a fluid leak and losing the clutch in the middle of nowhere.

The only words of wisdom is to do a lot of research, take your parts budget and labor time and double it, as something always comes up that eats up more time or cost twice as much. I look forward to your thread once you start your project.

The measurements were taken from here…..

[DirtyLarry]

Been crazy busy lately with little time to work on the project. I am without adult supervision for a week while the wife went to Florida to visit her parents for Christmas so the next 7 day should be pretty productive for me!

Plans over the next few days are to finish up the rust repair on the floorboards and front cab supports, finish the modifying and install the transmission cross members, install the ORD twin stick shifter (Wow, that looks like a Chinese finger puzzle!) and get the shafts measure and set off to the driveline shop. The upholstery guy said it will be 3 weeks! before the seats will be done so the truck may have to go to the Rhino line shop on the trailer.

I finally got the hydrobooster lines installed tonight. So far no leaks with the system full of fluid but we’ll see once the system is pressurized. Ended up having to have both hydrobooster lines reworked by the local hydraulic shop due to the metric fittings at the booster, standard steering gear as well as the odd ball bend to get into the 8.1L P/S pump.



Waiting on a cross member. Not too sure about AA’s square stock tube idea for a trans mount adapter.


P/S cooler and fresh Argent paint in the head light bezels buckets to match the OEM grill I am planning to go back to. I think that is how they were originally (I swear my dad’s ’78 K20 had Argent headlight bezels when it was new).


You can see paint chips where this truck was originally Colonial Yellow. The ironic thing is my dad’s K20 wrecker that I inherited is also Colonial Yellow.

[Hammer500]

Subscribed as well. Can't wait to do this swap in my 69...once I gather the money and then the parts. Awesome thread.
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[DirtyLarry]

Got a lot done the last few days the wife has been out of town. My buddy Bill, who is a much better fabrication that I, did a great job on the rear trans mount. Rather that move the cross member back a few inches and drill 8 new holes in the frame he fabbed up a bracket where the trans cross member was able to stay in the original spot.

Had a hell of a time bleeding the clutch and finally determined Napa gave me a bad clutch master cylinder. Not only did it not build pressure but the rod was 1” longer than the right master cylinder. It must have been misboxed as the first one and the latest one were the same part number but physically different.

Also got the driveshafts reworked Thursday. The front shaft had to be lengthened and the rear had to be shortened. I had been running a bastard u-joint to use the 1/2 ton driveshaft with the 14FF every since the axle was installed 15 years ago (I only broke 1 of those bastard U-joints in 15 years and that was right after the 8.1L was installed). Since the shaft was going through surgery I had them change the shaft end so I can run a standard big beefy solid cross lube for life u-joint.

All the fluid are topped off with no visible leaks yet. All that really needs to be done is install the ORD twin shifter, front shaft, skid plate and finish up the rust repair on the floorboard then ship it off the Rhino line shop. One drag is I won’t see the seats for a few more weeks.

Oh, yeah….a gallon of Syncromesh fluid for the NV4500 was $51! That is crazy!

[MTCK]

Looking good, Larry! I think I saw your YouTube video that explains the 1 broken u-joint. Sometimes you have to let the horses run. Happy Holidays.
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[jonessmc87]

Larry, is that the stock sm465 crossmember? I cant tell because of your fresh black paint, but that 2 inch box tubing is just bolted to the bottom of the nv4500 and not one of your adaptor plates, correct?

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by jonessmc87

Larry, is that the stock sm465 crossmember? I cant tell because of your fresh black paint, but that 2 inch box tubing is just bolted to the bottom of the nv4500 and not one of your adaptor plates, correct?

Yep, that is the stock 465 cross member and location. The square stock was part of the AA kit. For some reason they chose to make their tail shaft extension different enough from the GM/Dodge tail shaft extension where the stock NV4500 trans mount won’t work. We just added flat plate and gussets to the square stock. It worked out very well and looks more than strong enough for the job. Post 94 has a better picture of the square stock that came in the AA kit.

[snj8198]

Looks good Larry. You get package?