1965 C10 LWB Project Build Thread

[JohnIL]

I discovered something strange tonight. I took the truck for a short drive to test the brakes. I still have some air in the lines. More on that in a later update. I while I was out driving around the block, the drive side front spring was making all kinds of racket. Once I got the truck back home and up on blocks, it was obvious that the driver side front spring is making contact with the edge of the upper spring pocket. The question is, why?

I posted a separate thread in the Suspension section:
https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...78#post9350178

Take a look at the pictures in that thread and let me know if you have any ideas.

[bigmoe]

Did you drill a new hole in the brake pedal arm 1" lower?

[rbruno68]

Following your brake thread closely as well as others. This is one of the upgrades to my 63 that makes me nervous. All of the aftermarket parts needed to work and all the confusion around which MC and proportioning valve to use and the quality of each. Much less the size of the MC push rod, shot depth vs deep, larger front reservoir vs the same size. I will be doing disk/drum NON power which seems to be difficult to set up. Or, at least I am finding it to be a challenge. Good luck on sorting it out and keeping up to date with what you are trying. I am sure I will be doing the same process at some point in my build.
Rob

[JohnIL]

Bruno,
I cheated a little bit. I bought all the brake components (booster, master, spindles, rotors, and calipers) as a kit from Speedway Motors. That takes out a lot of the guessing. The parts aren't all made by the same manufacturer, but Speedway puts them says they put the kits together using known compatible parts. Most of the components are CCP brand. It's nothing exotic, but it should all work together. I'm doing vacuum boosted power with front discs and rear drums. Your mileage may vary with a manual setup. If I find any caveats or wisdom along the way, I will definitely post it here in the build thread.

John

Originally Posted by rbruno68

Following your brake thread closely as well as others. This is one of the upgrades to my 63 that makes me nervous. All of the aftermarket parts needed to work and all the confusion around which MC and proportioning valve to use and the quality of each. Much less the size of the MC push rod, shot depth vs deep, larger front reservoir vs the same size. I will be doing disk/drum NON power which seems to be difficult to set up. Or, at least I am finding it to be a challenge. Good luck on sorting it out and keeping up to date with what you are trying. I am sure I will be doing the same process at some point in my build.
Rob

[88Stanger]

Damn sir, I hate to hear the frustrating issues. I HATE brake issues with such a passion!! I have spent hours and hours chasing "bubbles" and so on. So please excuse any ideas that I post below that you may have already done.
1.) Bench bleed the Master Cylinder? Fully... This can be a pain, but very very important.
2.) Check that you have correct Proportioning valve (Combo Valve) Disc / Drum , Disc / Disc and so on, this caused me nothing but headaches for days...
3.) I got so mad, I just converted over to HydroBoost, but really had to. I had maybe 7lbs of vacuum.. .so it was needed. But I will say this, it is really nice system, but not cheap
4.) I bought one of those brake machines. I got the one that puts pressure to the master Cylinder with Air and then I start the process. It works really good, but it takes time to set up. I have tried a reverse system where you vacuum at the bleeder... it was not a good kit that I got, cheap one and it did not work good, but I would not be apposed to trying one the nicer kits for this.

I just hope you have success. I feel for you on this!

[JohnIL]

Stranger,
Thanks for the reply and the suggestions.

1. I bench bled the master. I worked at it until the bubbles stopped, then two more pumps. I'm reasonably confident I got all the air out. Of course, there's always a chance three are bubbles hiding somewhere.

2. The proportioning valve came with the Speedway Motors kit. It's actually a combination valve. It's a PV2 valve, for front disc/rear drum. It happens to be the same valve as my son's square body with the same disc/drum arrangement.

3. My engine is stock. 14+ vacuum. I should be fine with vacuum assist. But, you're absolutely right about hydroboost. If/when I LS swap the truck, I will keep this in mind. Hydroboost would take the braking system to the next level.

4. I've never used a reverse bleeder. I've always bled brakes manually. I'm interested to try a reverse bleeder because I'm having so much trouble pushing the air out the manual way. The one I ordered is the Phoenix v-5 kit. It's been on the market for a few years. I hope the quality level matches the reputation. I like the idea of the kit you use. I'm just not confident in the expense. Which one do you have?

Thanks!
John

Originally Posted by 88Stanger

Damn sir, I hate to hear the frustrating issues. I HATE brake issues with such a passion!! I have spent hours and hours chasing "bubbles" and so on. So please excuse any ideas that I post below that you may have already done.
1.) Bench bleed the Master Cylinder? Fully... This can be a pain, but very very important.
2.) Check that you have correct Proportioning valve (Combo Valve) Disc / Drum , Disc / Disc and so on, this caused me nothing but headaches for days...
3.) I got so mad, I just converted over to HydroBoost, but really had to. I had maybe 7lbs of vacuum.. .so it was needed. But I will say this, it is really nice system, but not cheap
4.) I bought one of those brake machines. I got the one that puts pressure to the master Cylinder with Air and then I start the process. It works really good, but it takes time to set up. I have tried a reverse system where you vacuum at the bleeder... it was not a good kit that I got, cheap one and it did not work good, but I would not be apposed to trying one the nicer kits for this.

I just hope you have success. I feel for you on this!

[88Stanger]

Originally Posted by JohnIL

Stranger,
Thanks for the reply and the suggestions.

1. I bench bled the master. I worked at it until the bubbles stopped, then two more pumps. I'm reasonably confident I got all the air out. Of course, there's always a chance three are bubbles hiding somewhere.

2. The proportioning valve came with the Speedway Motors kit. It's actually a combination valve. It's a PV2 valve, for front disc/rear drum. It happens to be the same valve as my son's square body with the same disc/drum arrangement.

3. My engine is stock. 14+ vacuum. I should be fine with vacuum assist. But, you're absolutely right about hydroboost. If/when I LS swap the truck, I will keep this in mind. Hydroboost would take the braking system to the next level.

4. I've never used a reverse bleeder. I've always bled brakes manually. I'm interested to try a reverse bleeder because I'm having so much trouble pushing the air out the manual way. The one I ordered is the Phoenix v-5 kit. It's been on the market for a few years. I hope the quality level matches the reputation. I like the idea of the kit you use. I'm just not confident in the expense. Which one do you have?

Thanks!
John

Please update us on the Phoenix V-5 Kit. I have seen it and very tempted to get one.... very interested in how it works.

[JohnIL]

Stranger,
I didn't end up using the V-5 kit, at least not yet. I'll add a more thorough update in a few minutes to explain where I'm at with the brakes.

John

Originally Posted by 88Stanger

Please update us on the Phoenix V-5 Kit. I have seen it and very tempted to get one.... very interested in how it works.

[JohnIL]

I want to start this installment by thanking Scoti for his advice on an alternate procedure for manually bleeding brakes. His process is much more controlled and methodical than the way I've always done it. After three rounds of bleeding Scoti's way, I don't think I'm chasing air bubbles anymore. In fact, I didn't see any air bubbles at all. Now, I'm pretty sure I have a different challenge.

After bleeding again, the pedal was still soft. The brakes stop the truck, but the pedal feel was awful. I've felt air in the lines before (on other vehicles) and this felt different. It felt like maybe I wasn't getting enough brake pedal travel, like the pedal was hitting the floor before the master cylinder was maxed out. After thinking about the geometry of the booster and master cylinder, I lengthened the brake rod by adjusting it out one full turn. This improved the pedal feel. It's still softer than I would expect, but I finally got resistance at the end of the pedal stroke. So, I adjusted the rod out two more full turns and the pedal is starting to feel normal-ish.

All of this begs the question, how do you properly adjust the brake rod length?

With the old manual drum setup, I just took all the slack out of the pedal and adjusted the rod so there was 1/8" of free play before the brakes started to engage. I tried to do the same thing with the new power setup, but that appears to be way to loose. With the cushioned resistance of the brake booster, it's very difficult to tell when the brakes begin to engage. Is there a magic formula or should I just keep lengthening the rod until the brakes drag?

As always, I appreciate any wisdom you guys can share.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by JohnIL

I want to start this installment by thanking Scoti for his advice on an alternate procedure for manually bleeding brakes. His process is much more controlled and methodical than the way I've always done it. After three rounds of bleeding Scoti's way, I don't think I'm chasing air bubbles anymore. In fact, I didn't see any air bubbles at all. Now, I'm pretty sure I have a different challenge.

After bleeding again, the pedal was still soft. The brakes stop the truck, but the pedal feel was awful. I've felt air in the lines before (on other vehicles) and this felt different. It felt like maybe I wasn't getting enough brake pedal travel, like the pedal was hitting the floor before the master cylinder was maxed out. After thinking about the geometry of the booster and master cylinder, I lengthened the brake rod by adjusting it out one full turn. This improved the pedal feel. It's still softer than I would expect, but I finally got resistance at the end of the pedal stroke. So, I adjusted the rod out two more full turns and the pedal is starting to feel normal-ish.

All of this begs the question, how do you properly adjust the brake rod length?

With the old manual drum setup, I just took all the slack out of the pedal and adjusted the rod so there was 1/8" of free play before the brakes started to engage. I tried to do the same thing with the new power setup, but that appears to be way to loose. With the cushioned resistance of the brake booster, it's very difficult to tell when the brakes begin to engage. Is there a magic formula or should I just keep lengthening the rod until the brakes drag?

As always, I appreciate any wisdom you guys can share.

Manual & power brakes use different leverage on most vehicles. When I swapped to vacuum/power assisted brakes from Hydraboost on my Squarebody dually, it required a different ratio.

When I swapped to disc brakes on my drum brake trucks, I kept them manual so it was just as you did (remove the slack @ the pedal).

[JohnIL]

I figured out why the driver side spring is out of alignment. The upper spring pockets aren't symmetrical. Take a look at my thread in the Suspension section for pictures and details. I know what the problem is, but I don't what to do about it.

https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=855327

Thanks for any advice you can give.

John

[Braunschweiger]

When I have problems, I briefly loosen the brake line screw connections under pressure on the master brake cylinder
and then tighten them again straight away;
bubbles often still appear there.

[SCOTI]

John.... What is your manual bleeding strategy (step-by-step)?

I know, I know...... But humor me & walk us through it.

[JohnIL]

Scoti,
I'll be happy to walk you through it. Hopefully you guys will tell me what I'm doing wrong!

I actually used three different strategies on this truck.

1. Gravity.
I filled the reservoir, opened the bleeders and waited. The front calipers started dripping fluid in just a few minutes. Of course there was still air bubbles, but that got the lines filled with fluid. I closed off the front bleeders and left the rear bleeders open for about three hours. I never got fluid out of the rears using this strategy.

2. Manual bleeding using a Performance Tools Bleed-O-Matic.
If you're not familiar, it's a little bottle with a check valve built into the top. You connect a tube from the bleeder to the check valve and crack the bleeder. As you pump the brakes, fluid and air flow into the bottle. The check valve is supposed to keep air from getting sucked back into the brake line. After about 10 pumps, this strategy got fluid back to the rear wheel cylinders. The brake lines were all new, so there was LOTS of air. So, 10 more pumps, check for air bubbles, repeat. After I thought I got all the air out, the pedal was still soft. That led me to strategy 3.

3. Manual bleeding with a helper.
I think this is the process you're asking about. My wife and I have developed a routine for bleeding brakes. Luckily, she's a good sport. We've used this routine on LOTS of other vehicles and it's never failed us before. Here's how it goes:

-I start at the brake furthest from the master cylinder. In this case, that's the driver side rear wheel cylinder.
-She pumps the brake pedal four times and holds it to the floor.
-I crack open the bleeder for a split second to let it spit out any air.
-I close the bleeder and we repeat the process until I get only fluid out of the bleeder.
-Then I move to the next closest brake and we repeat the process. Etc.

After going through all four brakes, I took the truck for a drive. The brakes would stop the truck, but the pedal was still soft and I could easily push it all the way to the floor.

So, we went through another round of bleeding. This time, I only got air at the 1st brake (driver side rear). The other three were fluid only. Afterward, the pedal feel was better, but still way too soft.

At this point, I think I'm chasing air bubbles in the hard line that goes up over the top of the rear pumpkin. Before I try the reverse bleeder, I plan to go through another round of manual bleeding. Hopefully the pedal firmness comes around and I can forgo the reverse bleeder entirely.

I'll take any suggestions I can get!

Thanks.
John

Originally Posted by SCOTI

John.... What is your manual bleeding strategy (step-by-step)?

I know, I know...... But humor me & walk us through it.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by JohnIL

Scoti,
I'll be happy to walk you through it. Hopefully you guys will tell me what I'm doing wrong!

I actually used three different strategies on this truck.

1. Gravity.
I filled the reservoir, opened the bleeders and waited. The front calipers started dripping fluid in just a few minutes. Of course there was still air bubbles, but that got the lines filled with fluid. I closed off the front bleeders and left the rear bleeders open for about three hours. I never got fluid out of the rears using this strategy.

2. Manual bleeding using a Performance Tools Bleed-O-Matic.
If you're not familiar, it's a little bottle with a check valve built into the top. You connect a tube from the bleeder to the check valve and crack the bleeder. As you pump the brakes, fluid and air flow into the bottle. The check valve is supposed to keep air from getting sucked back into the brake line. After about 10 pumps, this strategy got fluid back to the rear wheel cylinders. The brake lines were all new, so there was LOTS of air. So, 10 more pumps, check for air bubbles, repeat. After I thought I got all the air out, the pedal was still soft. That led me to strategy 3.

3. Manual bleeding with a helper.
I think this is the process you're asking about. My wife and I have developed a routine for bleeding brakes. Luckily, she's a good sport. We've used this routine on LOTS of other vehicles and it's never failed us before. Here's how it goes:

-I start at the brake furthest from the master cylinder. In this case, that's the driver side rear wheel cylinder.
-She pumps the brake pedal four times and holds it to the floor.
-I crack open the bleeder for a split second to let it spit out any air.
-I close the bleeder and we repeat the process until I get only fluid out of the bleeder.
-Then I move to the next closest brake and we repeat the process. Etc.

After going through all four brakes, I took the truck for a drive. The brakes would stop the truck, but the pedal was still soft and I could easily push it all the way to the floor.

So, we went through another round of bleeding. This time, I only got air at the 1st brake (driver side rear). The other three were fluid only. Afterward, the pedal feel was better, but still way too soft.

At this point, I think I'm chasing air bubbles in the hard line that goes up over the top of the rear pumpkin. Before I try the reverse bleeder, I plan to go through another round of manual bleeding. Hopefully the pedal firmness comes around and I can forgo the reverse bleeder entirely.

I'll take any suggestions I can get!

Thanks.
John

Two things....

Order.
Which frame rail are your lines routed down?
Where (which side) is the rear inline splitter/'T'?

The process.
The multiple pump thing? Try this instead:

One single pump (SLOWLY) & hold it. *Think slow, consistent stop vs panic or quick stop.*

Hold/keep the pedal down/under pressure. Once the pedal is pressurized, crack the bleeder to purge air/fluid & then close the bleeder. Once the bleeder is closed, have your helper SLOWLY release the pedal back to its normal state.

Repeat this multiple times @ each bleeder. I do this 3x @ each corner (on problematic vehicles) checking reservoir fluid level after each corner. Then follow the traditional order farthest to closest doing each corner 3x the same way.

I've found this to work better on problematic vehicles & actually do it all the time now when there is a helper involved.
Maybe it will help?

[JohnIL]

Scoti,
Thanks for the suggestions. We'll try bleeding again tonight, using your method.

To answer your questions, the rear brake line runs down the passenger side frame rail. This appears to be the factory arrangement, but I don't know that for sure. At the rear axle, just forward of the shock mount, there is a mounting tab that holds the end of the rubber flex line. The rubber flex line screws into a T fitting mounted to the top of the axle housing just to the right of the pumpkin. From there, there is a short hard line to the passenger side wheel cylinder and a longer hard line up over the pumpkin to the driver side wheel cylinder. That makes the passenger side rear the longest run to/from the master cylinder.

The multiple pump bleeding method comes from an uncle who was a pro mechanic most of his career. That's the way he was taught in tech school back in the late '60's. He taught me, so I just assumed that was the "right" way. Like anything else, there's more than one way. I hope your way gives us better results.

Thanks.
John

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Two things....

Order.
Which frame rail are your lines routed down?
Where (which side) is the rear inline splitter/'T'?

The process.
The multiple pump thing? Try this instead:

One single pump (SLOWLY) & hold it. *Think slow, consistent stop vs panic or quick stop.*

Hold/keep the pedal down/under pressure. Once the pedal is pressurized, crack the bleeder to purge air/fluid & then close the bleeder. Once the bleeder is closed, have your helper SLOWLY release the pedal back to its normal state.

Repeat this multiple times @ each bleeder. I do this 3x @ each corner (on problematic vehicles) checking reservoir fluid level after each corner. Then follow the traditional order farthest to closest doing each corner 3x the same way.

I've found this to work better on problematic vehicles & actually do it all the time now when there is a helper involved.
Maybe it will help?