Was it karma? or "Why Glass Fuel Filters Suck"

[VWNate1]

Agreed ;

It's very dangerous stuff , gasoline is .

VW's catch fire because of either the rubber fuel hose rotting & leaking fuel onto the distributor or because the brass nipple slips out of the carby inlet with the same results .

In both cases, it takes the spark to ignite the leaking gasoline .

In years past , drill bits were hand sharpened on a grinding wheel then quenched in a cup of gasolne as the quenching of gasoline worked better than water at retaining the hardness of the hot drill bit .

[Dan in Pasadena]

Originally Posted by vwnate1

...in years past...

precisely.

[Dan in Pasadena]

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO FFREDO?

I don't know about anyone else, but I haven't seen him on other threads and not on his own threads. I know he had a fire in his truck but did he abandon the project? Anyone know?

[OrrieG]

Originally Posted by VWNate1

Fuel filters are never supposed to be placed before the fuel pump , only after .
.

I had never heard this. I have been running filters between the tank and fuel pumps since getting a bad tank of gas in the 70's that caused a ton of residual problems.

[VWNate1]

As I tend to bet out and about really early , I often get bad gas , hate when that happens .

[OrrieG]

Originally Posted by VWNate1

As I tend to bet out and about really early , I often get bad gas , hate when that happens .

Yeah, NEVER get fuel if the big truck is there making a delivery, it mixes up all the crud in the tanks, thats what messed up the fuel system in my wifes car.

[VWNate1]

And therin lies the rub :

When they dump the fresh fuel in , it stirs up huge clouds of silt, rust chips and so on , this remains suspended in the fuel for at least 24 hours .

Typical fuel deliveries are between midnight and sun up , I get there right after and see no tanker , buy 18 gallons of shyte and the clear fuel filter fills up with crud .

If you have a mechanical fuel pump , do not place a filter between it and the fuel tank .

If you have fuel injection , this is a *maybe* thing as all quality fuel pumps are designed to pump fuel and some crud straight through .

I've never replaced any fuel pump damaged by dirt but hundreds of electric pumps that were burned out because of clogged filters before the pump .

You makes your chioce then takes your chances , no complaining when that new pump dies .

[Old Truck Man]

I never like to install any aftermarket filter between the fuel pump and the engine. A steel line is best. And the sintered bronze factory filter that is installed in the carb does a great job. I have a glass bowl filter similar to the first one pictured except mine has a cremac filter. I usually install it someplace between the tank & fuel pump when first bringing some zombie vehicle back to life. It collects the varnish & debris before it get,s to the fuel pump. I remove it and install a metal filter after ive ran a couple of tankfuls of gas. TV tommy ivo bought a brand new nailhead buick in the mid fifties. He was cleaning the glass sediment bowl and spilled a small amount of fuel on a hot engine. the fire destroyed the body. So he stripped it to the bare frame and built his first rail job. In the early sixties he built a four wheel drive dragster powered by 4 buick nail head engines. It was quite a sight to see it smoke four large slicks down the entire quarter mile dragstrip. That car was on display a Don Garlits Museum at Ocala Fla.

[Old Truck Man]

So why is it taboo to place a fuel filter between the tank & the fuel pump? The 62 GMC I own has a factory filter placed in the frame rail under the cab. It has a screw on metal canister with a paper filter inside it. the canister & filter are the same as the canister & filter found on many ford fuel pumps. Many of the diesel semi trucks have a filter or two between the tank,s & fuel pump. Every chevy Pk has a filter on the pickup located in the gas tank. So please explain to me why its a negative to place a filter between the tank & fuel pump. Ive been running filters between the tank & fuel pump for 50 years and never once experienced any problems? Now I wouldn't run one of those plastic fuel filters in any location even if you paid me. I use the Wix filter that was shown in another post.

[VWNate1]

The In Tank screen isn't a filter and no , your '62 GMC didn't come with that filter when new .

[Old Truck Man]

Originally Posted by VWNate1

The In Tank screen isn't a filter and no , your '62 GMC didn't come with that filter when new .

Your answer is not sufficient to satisfactory answer the question I asked. Ill take a picture of the 62 GMC filter in a few days. It was on my 62 GMC when I bought it in 1976. And I drove that truck over 500,000 miles with that filter setup. Now answer my question Why is it wrong to place a filter between the gas tank & the fuel pump. My 56 chev car has a glass bowl & screen on the fuel pump that the gas must pass through before the actual fuel pump valves & diaphragm ever touch it. The canister type filters mounted on the ford fuel pumps filter the gas before it ever reaches the fuel pump internals. I wish to know what the bad negatives are that will happen. Just what adverse problems will occur by filtering gas before it reaches the fuel pump? My take is you are not getting debris & in the case of a settlement bulb water in the internals of the fuel pump. And explain how the in tank filter isn't a filter. Ive had them clog up in the past. and it isn't a actual screen its a fine mesh type of thing. On semi trucks with Detroit diesel engines there are two filters a primary & a secondary between the fuel tanks & the gear driven mechanical transfer pump. from the transfer pump the fuel enters the heads at the front is routed to the injectors and the excess and the excess fuel exits through a orifice fitting. and those engines run hundreds of thousands of miles with that setup no problems. As the little child would keep repeting WHY WHY WHY?

[VWNate1]

Asking why is very good .

I already answered that in detail you need to read the earlier replies .

Seriously , I am not sure if you're trolling here or what ~ the glass bowl filters on your '56 Chevy are not before the pump , they're on the outlet side of things .

[Old Truck Man]

Originally Posted by VWNate1

Asking why is very good .

I already answered that in detail you need to read the earlier replies .

Seriously , I am not sure if you're trolling here or what ~ the glass bowl filters on your '56 Chevy are not before the pump , they're on the outlet side of things .

You haven't answered anything. And My camera isn't here today. My wife went on a trip and took it with her. She will return home late tonite. However tomorrow I will take pictures of the fuel pump on my 56 235 chev. I just looked at it. The fuel comes in to the inlet & glass bowl first then goes through a fine mesh screen before it ever touches the internals of the fuel pump. Ive got a old pump off and ill take it apart and show pictures that prove my claim tomorrow. Im not a troll. Its I just don't agree that it can cause any harm to anything to have a filter placed between the fuel tank and the fuel pump. Ive got 50 years experience working around construction & farm equiptment. And have never experienced any problems with a filter placed between the tank & the fuel pump on both gas & diesel engines. Now granted if you had a electric pump and the filter stopped completely up it would run without fuel and could be burnt up. But a mechanical pump if starved the engine would quit running or run poorly nothing really bad would happen. Go to any truck stop. Aks to look at a 855 cummins. It has a screw on fuel filter(looks similar to a oil filter) right before the fuel enters the PT injection pump. Many trucks in diesel mexico have a large fuel filter mounted horizontally at the rear of the cab that has exhaust heat run through it. Its there to thing and filter very crappy fuel before it hits the secondary filter.

[Old Truck Man]

javascript:; Ok I looked in my hoard and I found 5 mechanical fuel pumps that have glass bowls & fine mesh screens. and they all have the fuel enter the glass bowl first and go through the screen before ever toughing the pumps internal parts. the number 855261 pump is on Ebay at this time. its for a 1930,s Chevrolet I also have a pump for a JD 4 cy, a flathead ford, a generic one similar to the 855261 and the top od a Ac pump. and every one of them had the fuel enter the glass bowl first.

[NONHOG]

Originally Posted by VWNate1

Fuel filters are never supposed to be placed before the fuel pump , only after .

Some cheapo current aftermarket pump manufacturers have added B.S. instructions to add a pre pump filter , it's still wrong.

Was it James Bond who said "Never say never?" Just funnin ya.

BTW........
Toyota ran the FF back on the frame rail near the tank for many years on carb'd PU trucks. Worked great.

[Old Truck Man]

I started a new thread to debate the myth of it being taboo to place a fuel filter between the gas tank & fuel pump.

[Old Truck Man]

Ok here are the promised pictures that prove that the gas enters the glass bowl on the fuel pump before it ever reaches the fuel pumps internals. The first pucture is of a stock pump on a GM six cyl engine. The second is a Ac pump disassembled . Ive run wire through the inlet and through the outlet from the fuel bowl to the first hole that formerly held a check valve. Ive a variety of fuel pumps with glass bowls & screens and every one the fuel enters the glass bowl first.

[Old Truck Man]

More pictures of other pumps.

[Old Truck Man]

More pictures the one is of a inline carter filter that has a glass bowl & ceramic filter. I use it when I get a vehicle that has been sitting for a time. Installed between the tank & fuel pump its really efficient at filtering. For the moment In done with hijacking this thread. There is a old saying You are free to think & do whtever you wish. After all your the one who has to live with the results.

[Old Truck Man]

now getting back on the original subject of this thread. I think the safest setup is a solid metal line between the fuel pump and the carb. No rubber lines with fuel pressure on them. My dad bought a new ford in 66. It had a FE engine. there was a steel line run from the fuel pump that stopped about three inches short of the autolite carb. Into the carb was screwed a gas filter. connecting them was a short rubber hose. in about 1968that hose leaked spraying gas on the intake and it caught fire. melted the carb scorched the hood and burnt hoses & wires. The carb was toast. So we installed a carter AFB mechanical secondary carb and a solid steel line from the fuel pump to the carb. Changed the fuel pump out for a brand new one from a 330 ford F600 truck that had the canister filter on the bottom of the fuel pump. dad drove the old ford 330,000 miles with that setup not any more problems.

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by mechanixman

Ha ha I got the idea.
But my plan is to use this (i already had it) until I know for sure my fuel system is good and ready to go. THEN I'll run straight over to Oreillys and get the metal canister

Old thread but those pieces of junk have been listed as the cause of of a great number of engine fires on the net and elsewhere A lot of guys run them because they think they are cool looking and just as many be cause they think they like to see the fuel go through them. Others think they will be able to change the cartridge.

[mr48chev]

[QUOTE=VWNate1;6028015]I really wasn't trying to make a pi$$ing contest ~


Fuel filters are never supposed to be placed before the fuel pump , only after [quote]

That may fly on engines with fuel injection that I suspect you have had your GM training on for the past 25 years. That is most likely on late model FI units as I doubt GM has taught anything on Carburetors since 1990 when the last Carburetor ed 307 's rolled out of the factory.

I've put a filter in the line between the tank and pump on every car and truck I have put together since 1981 when on a road trip my fuel pump went out because I had left my gas cap on the fuel pump at the Grand Teton National park gas station. Ten miles east of Whitehall Montana my fuel pump failed because I had picked up fine gravel/course sand from driving on fresh gravel from road construction for who knows how many miles. I got it working good enough to get the truck over the hump and coasted downhill with the engine off and made it into a gas station in Whithall were a kid who was going in the Navy the next week sold me the pump he had saved back for his 55 chevy for 20.00 helped me put it on. We put a filter in front of the pump when we put the pump on and I made it on home. On my 71 I've plugged up who knows how many filters between the tank and pump because I had a tank with a lot of crud in it for a lot of miles and I got pretty good at changing filters on the side of the road. Those square body 76/80 Cad Sevilles have a nice filter setup up in front of the tank near the left rear wheel if a guy finds one in a wrecking yard The cover unscrews and you replace the filter and gasket and go again. It' the same Fram CG20 style filter that Cad used for years in the 70's.


On the sediment bowl/water separator that all too many guys think is the holy grail of traditional hot rod filters that they have fastened to their carbs. They aren't much of a filter but are used on a lot of farm equipment gas and diesel as a water trap/sediment bowl to catch the water in the fuel and catch the big chunks before the fuel actually goes through the fuel filter. New gaskets are readily available and you can find the glass bowls at farm equipment dealers parts counters.

[Old Truck Man]

Mr48 chev has explained the facts as simple & plain as possible. And yes a sediment glass bowl only filters water and large chunks. The glass bowl with the cermac filter is as good as they are. It filters very minute particles effectively. The fram metal inline is the one I prefer to use between the tank & fuel pump. The sintered bronze that is factory installed in the inlet of many Rochester Carbs is the only filter I would ever use between the fuel pump & carb.

[Old Truck Man]

Ok today I went to start up my 76 C65 truck. Its equipped with a 366 big block. It wouldn't run. I was having a fuel delivery problem. Now Ive owned this truck for a few years. Got to hunting the problem and found a cannister type fuel filter bolted to the frame right above the passenger side saddle tank. its between the saddle tank,s & carb. Never gave any problems until now. In fact I didn't even know it was there until today. It failed because it caught water and rusted the bottom of the cannister out. Now Ill not swear this filter setup was factory installed. Its possible it was installed when the saddle tanks where put on the truck. Now this truck was in use daily for many years. It had a bed on it with a tommy lift. Belonged to a well known welding supply co. Was used to deliver oxygen & acyetelyne bottles ect. they Ran it over 200,000 miles using this filter setup. Any way I bypassed the canister filter and temporarly installed a wix inline filter.

[thelawdoc]

As usual, a very informative forum thread. But I did not see enough comments regarding:

1. The use of rubber hose sections with hose clamps which is typical for fuel line filters. Personally, I have a distinct mistrust for such connections. For one thing, based on what I read online in general, it seems to be agreed that only steel line with bubble-flare fittings should be used for fuel lines, preferably brake line. So I am failing to understand why there is an exception for the fuel filter. Surely there is enough flex or 'give' in a steel line to permit easy changing of the filter. And if the steel line be especially heavy, then a spiral should bring enough 'give' to swap the filter. Secondly, if one is using rubber sections w/hose clamps at the filter, what is the point of flaring all of the other connections for the fuel line. Either rubber is safe or it is not. What am I missing here?

2. Mechanical pumps. Those who say that a filter should not be placed between the tank and the fuel pump obviously seem to be worried that a clogged up filter will cause their electric pumps to fail due to loss of 'coolant.' I understand that. But they do not say anything about a mechanical pump, which does not have that vulnerability. It seems to me that there can be no harm in having whatever number of filters that one wants, anywhere, so long as one has the mechanical fuel pump, while being mindful to have the finest filter right at the carb intake. Obviously, one ought not put on so many filters that one loses fuel pressure. But, in my mind, if a truck lacks a fuel pressure regulator, what better way to come down to correct pressure than adding a fuel filter?

3. Filters & fuel pressure. I think there is a high percentage of otherwise well experienced and knowledgable guys who do not realize that their fuel pressure is too high at the carb, i.e., that their fuel pressure is above the spec called for by the carburetor. I think that many guys do not like the sintered bronze final filter and that upon tossing it, they unwittingly raise the fuel pressure for the carb.

4. The order of fuel line components. It seems to me that the correct order of components should be as follows: tank with coarse filter within; fuel line with standard medium filter before mechanical pump; fuel line with standard medium filter after any pump; fuel line with sintered bronze or other very fine filter; fuel regulator; fuel pressure gauge, and carburetor.

5. Fire. Of course having a fire extinguisher in the cab is better than none at all. I often wonder at the community of knowledgable and experienced guys with vintage carburetors who do not have a fire extinguisher at hand. (There is an old Yiddish saying: The shoemaker goes barefoot.) But we all know that by the time you realize you have a fire under the hood, the damage is done, and the extinguisher simply puts out the fire. We need a configuration whereby the extinguisher hose is already in place under the hood and that it can issue the retardant in a fashion similar to a sprinkler head, over the entire engine bay. This is not to say that the result will be no damage at all. But it will spare the adrenaline-packed, near-panic, grab of the extinguisher, hasty exit from the vehicle in possible traffic, fumbling with the hood release, and raising of the hood, the latter giving the fire a huge dose of air.

6. Mechanical fuel cut-off: There might be something available in the market whereby you have a 'panic button' type knob in the cab that can activate a cut-off of the fuel at a point near its entry into the engine bay. For example, using a steel cable like that used for the manual choke on a carb, why would it be complicated to rig up a shut-off 'valve' mounted in the fuel line?

7. Fire sensor: Can it be that in this day and age, there is no sensor to inform of a flame? Obviously, smoke alarm sensors are not going to work in an engine bay. But there must be some sensor that can sense flames, signal an idiot lamp on the dash, or bell, and prompt the driver to activate the extinguisher and fuel cut-off.

8. Glass bowl thingies: We all love the look of these things, whether they are effective or not and whether they are safe or not. Why can't the bowl be made of some acrylic or the material used for wrist-watch faces?

Please feel free to disabuse me of any foolishness here. I am self-teaching myself everything I need to know to enjoy my truck, and these forums provide more than half of my study materials.

-Alden