Scott's 1972 Chevy K-20. A place to start.

[mosesburb]

Originally Posted by gerfunken

And having hit save before I finished....

This is one that I really was planning on going to a junkyard for. The problem (in this case) with going with the purchase new option is that I'm missing parts. The new order doesn't include the skid plate or any of the fueling neck options, so I'll see what I can do to figure that out. On that note, any personal recommendations on junkyards for american iron around the Phoenix area?

I use a few right in the area of 27th ave and Buckeye. Ecology is north of Buckeye on the west side of the road just north of the tracks. There is one next door on the south side of the tracks, but I forget the name of it. I usually start with this one, then Ecology, then I hit the one at 25th ave and Buckeye (used to be Grand Used Auto Parts years ago). They are all right off I-17 and usually have what I need and they are closer than the ones on Broadway. If you strike out, from 19th ave to 35th ave on Broadway, there are approximately a thousand wrecking yards on both sides of the road.

Originally Posted by gerfunken

Ok, more research last night, putting my internet searching powers to the test... (and a reference if anyone else can use it.)

Ok, I've been trying to piece together the steering/hydro-boost components.

It looks like the hydro-boost in the Chevy (starting in 82 with their Diesel trucks) is running the same lines as the Dodge. They're all 16mm male to 18mm male O-ring hoses. Dodge started running the hydro-boost in 1997, it wasn't an option in '94. So, I should be able to get the parts to cover from the power steering pump to the hydro-boost (ACDELCO Part # 36352440) and from the hydro-boost to the steering gear (Dodge: ACDELCO Part # 36352340) or (Chevy: ACDELCO Part # 36357640).

In that set-up, I should be able to run the GM hydro-booster (ACDELCO Part # 14PB4147) with a new master cylinder (A-1 CARDONE Part # 101863). I also found power booster brackets to handle the hydro-boost that are custom made for the 67-72 body style.
Captinfab's Power Brake Booster Adapter Bracket
Captinfab's Hydroboost Mounting Plates


The only thing that this leaves out is the power steering box. The 1972 2wd power steering box is listed as a 3/8" input, so the metrics won't work. That being said, I saw that the part number (A-1 CARDONE Part # 275004) covers from 1968-86, and I've seen reference that they all have the same bolt patterns. It looks like they switched over from standard to metric in '81, so pushing it to the 86, and verifying that it's metric should be good. I have read that the pitman arm from the Dodge should work, but can't verify that until I get the steering box in.

With that, I'm hoping it will be a bolt in operation.

Here we go. You *can* use hydroboost (HB from now on) hoses for a square body Chevy, but I don't think you are going to want to. They are long. REALLY long. Almost loop them around the front axle long. That and the one from the motor to the HB is going to be even longer than it should be because the power steering pump is so far back on the Cummins when compared to any V-8 Chevy motor--even the I-6's. I only looked at those momentarily and moved on. I first used some goofy C3500HD application that worked kind of ok at best. I had to re-tweak some bends and adjust others, but the thing I liked about those hoses is they came off the passenger side of the HB instead of the driver side like the square bodies had. If I had it to do over again, I would do exactly what I ended up doing in the end and that is make all of the hoses out of Teflon lined steel braided hoses. They must be Teflon lined. The less expensive rubber lined hose will not hold up for very long (I learned this years ago by trying it). The best part of this setup is it is permanent. If built correctly, you should never have to change a Teflon lined hose due to age. Ever. Now the price of admission is not real low, but you get to make EXACTLY what YOU want. Not settling for something that gets the job done but looks like crap or doesn't fit just right. None of that.

One other option is to get the fittings off of some old hoses (wrecking yard is a good source), take them to RMACC or the Parker Store and have them weld on new ferrules, buy some quality hydraulic hose, take it all home, set it up, mark everything for clock position and take it back and have them crimp the ferrules. This gets it done with quality hydraulic hose, you get to run them how you'd like, but they are not a permanent solution. Whatever you do, DO NOT buy replacement power steering hoses from ANY parts store. They are all made by one company and they are all crap. They are not even trying to make quality. Just a part that fits the vehicle and makes them money.

Hydroboost. You can use pretty much any GM hydroboost, but I like the mounting plates from the C/K trucks from 88-99(ish). The plate that mounts them to the firewall shares two holes with our trucks. Take it off the HB, drill two holes in it, flip it over, open the hole in the firewall a fuzz (for nut clearance) and bolt it on. There is a minor length difference in the actuator rod, but it isn't tough to figure out.

Steering boxes. '79 and down is standard thread inverted flare. '80 and up is o-ring with metric threads. They are interchangeable in all regards except for the LINE threads. The pitman shaft on the Dodge is NOT the same as a 4wd GM box. The Dodge uses a fully splined pitman shaft with four master splines whereas the GM box uses a pitman shaft that is approximately half splined and has a pinch-bolt through the pitman arm (and corresponding groove in the pitman shaft) instead of a nut that threads on the bottom of the pitman shaft. A 2wd GM box has a fully threaded pitman shaft with four master splines also, but I am not sure they are the same size. I think they are, but that's about as sure as I get on the subject. (2wd and 4wd GM boxes are identical except for the pitman shaft and yes, some are interchangeable, i.e. use a 2wd pitman shaft in a 4wd box) So, pick a box that has the features you need and go with it. If you decide to make your own hoses with the steel braided lines, you can keep your current box and just get inverted flare to JIC (AN) fittings and you're done. Another nice bonus to making your own. If you decide to change the box down the road and you go with a later model metric fitting box at that time, just get the two adapter fittings that go from 16mm and 18mm to JIC (AN). It's that simple with the braided lines.

One other recommendation, use a remote power steering reservoir. I used one from PSC that has an integral filter in it, but even a stock GM one could be modified to work. Run the return lines from the HB and steering box to the remote reservoir for MUCH(!!) easier bleeding of the system. I also recommend a cooler and filter in the system. How you do it (if you do it) is up to you, but the PSC stuff, while not cheap, is well engineered and constructed for ease of installation, service and very durable. Read through the tech tips section on the PSC site to avoid some easy mistakes (like the ones I made). They also have quality steering boxes that are right in line with other "good" rebuilt units (beyond parts tore quality).

[mosesburb]

Originally Posted by Dieselwrencher

Mosesburb, thanks for the tank and sending unit info! Is the sending unit smaller or bigger for the fuel injected tanks? If I can fit it in there, I may just use the burb tank for now. We shall see.

Its been several years since I played with a fuel injected tank, but IIRC, the diameter of the sending unit hole in an injected tank is quite a bit larger than a carbureted tank making the swap less feasible. What about leaving the fuel injection sending unit in the tank, just using the fuel level signal from it and adding a dip tube/draw straw to the tank in an area that will not interfere with the float?? You could even avoid the baffling with the placement of the tube if it is going to create a problem for your setup.

[Dieselwrencher]

If I can find the original sending unit I'll definitely use it. If I can locate it. Haha
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[gerfunken]

Just got a call asking for "what you can find for a power steering/ hydro boost pump for the Cummins with out the vacuum pump."

In the 94, the vacuum pump is driven off the drive gear, then drives a pump adapter, then the PS pump.

What options exist for removing the vacuum pump and going straight to the PS pump?

[gerfunken]

Originally Posted by gerfunken

Just got a call asking for "what you can find for a power steering/ hydro boost pump for the Cummins with out the vacuum pump."

In the 94, the vacuum pump is driven off the drive gear, then drives a pump adapter, then the PS pump.

What options exist for removing the vacuum pump and going straight to the PS pump?

Ok, so I think I've been able to answer my own question. It doesn't look like anything is off the shelf, but I did find an article on 4btswaps where someone had one custom made PSC Motorsports. The solution looks simple and elegant. I'm talking with Randy now to determine the necessity.

UPDATE: it now looks as if the pump above is modified from a 4BT engine, not a 6BT. It's not that it has been modified, but rather that the pump itself was upgraded/replaced on the 4BT assembly.



In looking at some of the other conversions, I haven't seen you guys have to contend with this, or maybe I've missed something?

[1985-GMC]

I think most people keep the vacuum pump to run all the heater/ AC controls, so its pretty handy to already be on there.

[ryanroo]

yeah, i dont see a reason to eliminate the vacuum pump unless there is some otherwise totally unavoidable reason it has to be removed. if you had to you could build a bracket to mount a normal GM pump and drive it off one of those kilby add on vbelt pulleys.

there are also a few gear driven gerotor type pumps that were available on medium duty applications that had no air compressor. those should work but may require a better box and or a few bypass pressure adjustments.

also, there are some 4bt applications that used the saginaw style pump with no vacuum pump.

here is one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cummins-5-9-...item20d31e9f3c

i think the fritolay box trucks used them and maybe a f-700 type ford maybe?

ryan

[mosesburb]

He doesn't have a/c, so he really doesn't need a vac pump to run anything.

[ryanroo]

Originally Posted by mosesburb

He doesn't have a/c, so he really doesn't need a vac pump to run anything.

agreed, but i dont see any point in jumping through hoops just to eliminate it. it wont hurt anything if you just let it run and plug the draw tube into the air cleaner. then the whole apparatus is still an easier to find off the shelf part for a 2nd gen dodge.

[gerfunken]

Originally Posted by ryanroo

agreed, but i dont see any point in jumping through hoops just to eliminate it. it wont hurt anything if you just let it run and plug the draw tube into the air cleaner. then the whole apparatus is still an easier to find off the shelf part for a 2nd gen dodge.

I actually do have AC, it's just that it's not stock AC... I went with a vintage air system about 5 years ago. Difficult to want to drive the truck in the summer without it.

[gerfunken]

Originally Posted by ryanroo

yeah, i dont see a reason to eliminate the vacuum pump unless there is some otherwise totally unavoidable reason it has to be removed. if you had to you could build a bracket to mount a normal GM pump and drive it off one of those kilby add on vbelt pulleys.

there are also a few gear driven gerotor type pumps that were available on medium duty applications that had no air compressor. those should work but may require a better box and or a few bypass pressure adjustments.

also, there are some 4bt applications that used the saginaw style pump with no vacuum pump.

here is one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cummins-5-9-...item20d31e9f3c

i think the fritolay box trucks used them and maybe a f-700 type ford maybe?

ryan

I'm trying to get a better understanding of what the problem is myself (not that I'm doubting him in any way.) In looking at the builds here, it doesn't seem that that assembly has been a problem for any of you, but most of the issues arise on the right side.

I'd seen the pump on eBay already. I also found a lead that led me to RockAuto to validate, but a 1989 Chevy P30 vehicle does come with a 3.9 Turbo Diesel engine option. They have the steering pump numbers, but they don't have any listing on the actual adapter.

The other thing I've found is that some commercial applications of the 5.9 did offer a steering pump, but those get even pricier. Example

So, I've done as much homework as I can on this tonight, send Randy an e-mail and we will see what he comes back with tomorrow.

Thanks again for all your insight & information, as a Cummins newbie, I really do appreciate it.

[1985-GMC]

Don't the 67-72 non AC trucks still have vacuum actuators for the heater stuff like the 73-87 trucks or is everything cable operated on them?
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[gerfunken]

Originally Posted by 1985-GMC

Don't the 67-72 non AC trucks still have vacuum actuators for the heater stuff like the 73-87 trucks or is everything cable operated on them?
Posted via Mobile Device

I honestly don't remember, but I believe that it was 3 cables and a single electrical switch on mine. The vintage air system does have one vacuum line on it, for starting/stopping the flow from the coolant lines, but I could put a friggin ball valve on that since I only use the heater in the mountains during my winter hunts.
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[mosesburb]

Originally Posted by gerfunken

I actually do have AC, it's just that it's not stock AC... I went with a vintage air system about 5 years ago. Difficult to want to drive the truck in the summer without it.

Ok, how about: His a/c doesn't use vacuum.

Originally Posted by 1985-GMC

Don't the 67-72 non AC trucks still have vacuum actuators for the heater stuff like the 73-87 trucks or is everything cable operated on them?
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Nope. All cables.

[ryanroo]

Originally Posted by gerfunken

I'm trying to get a better understanding of what the problem is myself (not that I'm doubting him in any way.) In looking at the builds here, it doesn't seem that that assembly has been a problem for any of you, but most of the issues arise on the right side.

i am interested to hear what the issue is, or if he is just wanting to remove it since it will be of little or no use.

I'd seen the pump on eBay already. I also found a lead that led me to RockAuto to validate, but a 1989 Chevy P30 vehicle does come with a 3.9 Turbo Diesel engine option. They have the steering pump numbers, but they don't have any listing on the actual adapter.

the adapter is likely a Cummins part. one of the iowa boys may be able to help with that. if you have an ESN Nick(6lcummins) might be able to chase it down for you. or if you are lucky he or Ryan may have something laying around they can get a PN from.

The other thing I've found is that some commercial applications of the 5.9 did offer a steering pump, but those get even pricier. Example
that is the bad boy! that would be an awesome pump if you wanted to run a hydralic assist or something. i bet it would work just fine without it, but you might need a well built box to handle the increased pressure.


So, I've done as much homework as I can on this tonight, send Randy an e-mail and we will see what he comes back with tomorrow.

Thanks again for all your insight & information, as a Cummins newbie, I really do appreciate it.

no problem!

[6lcummins]

Originally Posted by gerfunken

I'm trying to get a better understanding of what the problem is myself (not that I'm doubting him in any way.) In looking at the builds here, it doesn't seem that that assembly has been a problem for any of you, but most of the issues arise on the right side.

I'd seen the pump on eBay already. I also found a lead that led me to RockAuto to validate, but a 1989 Chevy P30 vehicle does come with a 3.9 Turbo Diesel engine option. They have the steering pump numbers, but they don't have any listing on the actual adapter.

The other thing I've found is that some commercial applications of the 5.9 did offer a steering pump, but those get even pricier. Example

So, I've done as much homework as I can on this tonight, send Randy an e-mail and we will see what he comes back with tomorrow.

Thanks again for all your insight & information, as a Cummins newbie, I really do appreciate it.

If he is worried about it leaking, the kit to rebuild the vacuum pump is like $15 from Cummins, I can get a part number easily enough for you. Unless clearance is an issue I don't personally see a need to eliminate it, but you could always use a 1st gen setup like we have on the Corvette. Ill try to dig up a pic because I know we have one somewhere.

If you do end up with a ESN that helps better locate what you're looking for feel free to text me, 682-365-9629. I work for a KW dealer and have full access to Quickserve.

I know we have a couple of those medium duty PS pumps and they are nice but I don't know if they would be low enough pressure for our application. We just use the normal 2nd gen style vacuum pump PS pump combo on our stuff.

[mosesburb]

Originally Posted by 6lcummins

If he is worried about it leaking, the kit to rebuild the vacuum pump is like $15 from Cummins, I can get a part number easily enough for you. Unless clearance is an issue I don't personally see a need to eliminate it, but you could always use a 1st gen setup like we have on the Corvette. Ill try to dig up a pic because I know we have one somewhere.

If you do end up with a ESN that helps better locate what you're looking for feel free to text me, 682-365-9629. I work for a KW dealer and have full access to Quickserve.

I know we have a couple of those medium duty PS pumps and they are nice but I don't know if they would be low enough pressure for our application. We just use the normal 2nd gen style vacuum pump PS pump combo on our stuff.

A buddy of mine has one of those MD PS pumps on his Blazer and it works great.
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[6lcummins]

Originally Posted by mosesburb

A buddy of mine has one of those MD PS pumps on his Blazer and it works great.
Posted via Mobile Device
Posted via Mobile Device

That's great to know, we didn't know for sure if they were worth keeping or not.

[gerfunken]

Originally Posted by gerfunken

I'm trying to get a better understanding of what the problem is myself (not that I'm doubting him in any way.) In looking at the builds here, it doesn't seem that that assembly has been a problem for any of you, but most of the issues arise on the right side.

I'd seen the pump on eBay already. I also found a lead that led me to RockAuto to validate, but a 1989 Chevy P30 vehicle does come with a 3.9 Turbo Diesel engine option. They have the steering pump numbers, but they don't have any listing on the actual adapter.

The other thing I've found is that some commercial applications of the 5.9 did offer a steering pump, but those get even pricier. Example

So, I've done as much homework as I can on this tonight, send Randy an e-mail and we will see what he comes back with tomorrow.

Thanks again for all your insight & information, as a Cummins newbie, I really do appreciate it.

Ok, so I got the scoop today, as I went down to the shop, snapped a couple of pictures, picked up the old 350, SM-465 & NP-205 along with some parts....

Randy's concern isn't the length or width of the PS pump. The concern that he has is that the fittings on the pump exit to the left, directly into the frame rail, and are causing an issue. His initial thought was that if he can remove the vacuum pump, and move the PS assembly forward, he'll pick up a little clearance as the frame bends back down towards the front.

So, the question (and I'll do a little bit of research myself this weekend) is: Is there an appropriate PS pump for the Dodge that has the fittings pointed either straight back or down?

[gerfunken]

And, now for the moment we've all been waiting for.... pictures!!!!




Randy and Me

[mosesburb]

Originally Posted by gerfunken

Ok, so I got the scoop today, as I went down to the shop, snapped a couple of pictures, picked up the old 350, SM-465 & NP-205 along with some parts....

Randy's concern isn't the length or width of the PS pump. The concern that he has is that the fittings on the pump exit to the left, directly into the frame rail, and are causing an issue. His initial thought was that if he can remove the vacuum pump, and move the PS assembly forward, he'll pick up a little clearance as the frame bends back down towards the front.

So, the question (and I'll do a little bit of research myself this weekend) is: Is there an appropriate PS pump for the Dodge that has the fittings pointed either straight back or down?

Are you referring to the return line on the p/s pump reservoir??

[gerfunken]

Originally Posted by mosesburb

Are you referring to the return line on the p/s pump reservoir??

I believe so (no visual on the PS Pump).

[ryanroo]

is that just mocked up or final location? are you running the std fan or are you going to run electrics? looks like a darn good start Scott!

here is a picture of mine and the relationship to the frame rail. i know yours is probably going to be mounted in a different place, from the looks of it a little higher and that should elimintate any issues with the frame interference i had.

[ryanroo]

i should add that i did a little manual tweaking to the return fitting. i am also considering pulling the can off and welding a JIC37 fitting in its place so i dont have to worry about hose clamps and cheesy hose.

[gerfunken]

Originally Posted by ryanroo

is that just mocked up or final location? are you running the std fan or are you going to run electrics? looks like a darn good start Scott!

here is a picture of mine and the relationship to the frame rail. i know yours is probably going to be mounted in a different place, from the looks of it a little higher and that should elimintate any issues with the frame interference i had.

Originally Posted by ryanroo

i should add that i did a little manual tweaking to the return fitting. i am also considering pulling the can off and welding a JIC37 fitting in its place so i dont have to worry about hose clamps and cheesy hose.

Ryan, thanks for the information. The engine is currently just mocked up, and not permanently attached.

The plan is for me to run a mechanical fan, but I may look at adding an electric pusher like on someone's Suburban (not naming names here...) If I recall, you clearanced your firewall a little bit to get your engine to sit back further, so you're right that the mounting locations will be slightly different.