PO has me PO'd

[skorpioskorpio]

For as much money and effort as you have in your truck, I'd seriously consider calling up Moser and asking them how much for a housing and axles. It'd probably run you about $1500 if you use your guts, or about $2500 for a whole new rear end with a new ring and pinion and an Eaton posi. My 9" complete with an aluminum 3rd member and a Wavetrack posi, was $3K. I know that is a whole lot more than spacers but in the end it's exactly what you want it to be and it's brand new and fresh.

[jaros44sr]

Originally Posted by skorpioskorpio

For as much money and effort as you have in your truck, I'd seriously consider calling up Moser and asking them how much for a housing and axles. It'd probably run you about $1500 if you use your guts, or about $2500 for a whole new rear end with a new ring and pinion and an Eaton posi. My 9" complete with an aluminum 3rd member and a Wavetrack posi, was $3K. I know that is a whole lot more than spacers but in the end it's exactly what you want it to be and it's brand new and fresh.

Dag nab it skorpio, i swore to myself that would not tear another system apart, but you make total sense. There is a company in York, Pa., just cant think of their name....

[skorpioskorpio]

I'm just sayin'

For me, I widened the rear by a lot, like 5" due to the fairly extreme offset of the wheels I chose. With Moser it was just clicking check boxes and they just made it, fitted for a C-10, click, done. So my housing is 5" wider (or so, I forget, but 75" tire bulge to tire bulge) then stock, has Ford Torino flange ends to match the custom 'Vette brakes, and C-10 trailing arm bracketry, and all that was "standard stuff" for them. I considered doing it as a 12 bolt, but it was actually stronger and lighter to do it as a 9" and about the same price...mmm actually with the Wavetrack it was cheaper because the 31 spline Wavetrack was on special, like $300 off, it was the best posi and near the cheapest price. I actually called them and went over it on the phone, but in the end I could have just ordered it on the website.

So you know the Wavetracks, both wheels turn whether they are loaded or not. Eaton type posi will not do that, the only other thing that does that is lockers which are noisy and eat tires.

Along the way I had planned on using this shortened tailshaft assembly for the 4L80E that made it the same length and interchangable with a 4L60E, which I thought would be a good idea, anyway the transmission parts place never delivered the actual shaft, just the casting so I returned it. That tailshaft used, or was supposed to use, the same 27 spline output shaft as a 4L60E/TH350, and I ordered a 3450 strap yoke from Moser for it, after I abandoned that plan I needed to exchange it for the 4L80E/TH400 type yolk and Moser did that no questions asked, just charged me shipping. I would not hesitate to buy from them again, everything about buying from them was easy.

[jaros44sr]

Ca-ching, ca-ching.....wonder how stong a quik change center section is? Winters axle is right around the corner

Thanks for the info.

[skorpioskorpio]

Well you couldn't just do a quick change in the back

[jaros44sr]

Originally Posted by skorpioskorpio

Well you couldn't just do a quick change in the back

Exactly my thinking......ca-ching, which means high steer change

[skorpioskorpio]

Originally Posted by jaros44sr

Exactly my thinking......ca-ching, which means high steer change

...and hell at that point you might as well go 4 wheel independent suspension and inboard brakes, of course then you'll need some custom skid plates to protect those brakes....

[jaros44sr]

Originally Posted by skorpioskorpio

...and hell at that point you might as well go 4 wheel independent suspension and inboard brakes, of course then you'll need some custom skid plates to protect those brakes....

Sorry, but don t think i could pull that one off, but i will do some ready as to what exactly is involved....i would like to do trailing arms in the back with coilovers

[skorpioskorpio]

Originally Posted by jaros44sr

Sorry, but don t think i could pull that one off, but i will do some ready as to what exactly is involved....i would like to do trailing arms in the back with coilovers

The only complication I can see with the trailing arms is whether there is enough length to get the trans and transfer case squeezed in infront of the trailing arm cross member. It'd probably be tight. When I measured mine for the 4L80 based on the "0" point in the factory 2WD frame specs (which represents the trans/engine split) it was right there at that cross member with the mount only a few inches ahead of it. I don't remember which trans you were going to use, but the dimensions from the engine to the end of a 700R4/4L60/65/70e is 24" and a 4L80e is 26 1/2" ( both with no tailshafts installed) then add the transfer case. The dimensions from the engine/trans split to the trailing arm cross member is 32 3/8" so it's not a lot to play with and probably not possible with a 4L80.

At first I considered leaving mine 4WD but changing it to 4 wheel coils and an independent front, it just seemed like too much work for something that is kind of unnesissary in a state where there is less rainy days than national holidays and the last time there was measurable snow here was 1954 and there was only one other time in the 20th century and I've been sabotaging all the Priuses I see to make sure that doesn't happen again.

[jaros44sr]

Originally Posted by skorpioskorpio

The only complication I can see with the trailing arms is whether there is enough length to get the trans and transfer case squeezed in infront of the trailing arm cross member. It'd probably be tight. When I measured mine for the 4L80 based on the "0" point in the factory 2WD frame specs (which represents the trans/engine split) it was right there at that cross member with the mount only a few inches ahead of it. I don't remember which trans you were going to use, but the dimensions from the engine to the end of a 700R4/4L60/65/70e is 24" and a 4L80e is 26 1/2" ( both with no tailshafts installed) then add the transfer case. The dimensions from the engine/trans split to the trailing arm cross member is 32 3/8" so it's not a lot to play with and probably not possible with a 4L80.

At first I considered leaving mine 4WD but changing it to 4 wheel coils and an independent front, it just seemed like too much work for something that is kind of unnesissary in a state where there is less rainy days than national holidays and the last time there was measurable snow here was 1954 and there was only one other time in the 20th century and I've been sabotaging all the Priuses I see to make sure that doesn't happen again.

Great info.,i think it is close enough to investigate, i have lots of room in front of engine to go forward. Right now i have a th350, but an od trans is in my future. I wonder if the 6' bed trucks had trailing arms?

If i go forward, i can make both driveshafts the same lenght

I wonder how you decide on which coilovers to pick from. A new rearend deserves a new rear suspension. I ve downloaded the winters catalog, lots to pick from.......

Oh, BTW, keep sabotaging

[skorpioskorpio]

Yes 6' beds had trailing arms, all 2WD half tons had trailing arms unless specifically ordered otherwise. When I was contemplating the 4WD coil thing I was looking at how hard it would be to adapt a Ford twin beam front diff. The problem really was that without an electronic differential transfer case you don't really get a more usable 4WD system. It's still a binding, bucking bronco on dry pavement with anything but open diffs and with seriously compromised handling.

I did the big 4WD on 37"s in my Suburban, it's awesome and you feel indestructable, but I'd rather have something now that makes me hang on around the turns... and not because you feel it's going over, I had a 215CI aluminum Buick V8 in a 1976 Buick Skyhawk back when I lived in Philly and loved that car on the river drives and down in Chester county. Eventually the Belgium block of Germantown ave ate that car , tore the whole front suspension apart.

[jaros44sr]

Originally Posted by skorpioskorpio

Yes 6' beds had trailing arms, all 2WD half tons had trailing arms unless specifically ordered otherwise. When I was contemplating the 4WD coil thing I was looking at how hard it would be to adapt a Ford twin beam front diff. The problem really was that without an electronic differential transfer case you don't really get a more usable 4WD system. It's still a binding, bucking bronco on dry pavement with anything but open diffs and with seriously compromised handling.

I did the big 4WD on 37"s in my Suburban, it's awesome and you feel indestructable, but I'd rather have something now that makes me hang on around the turns... and not because you feel it's going over, I had a 215CI aluminum Buick V8 in a 1976 Buick Skyhawk back when I lived in Philly and loved that car on the river drives and down in Chester county. Eventually the Belgium block of Germantown ave ate that car , tore the whole front suspension apart.

Im thinking full locker, cable actuated, on the rear....dont know yet for the front.

I ran into those little v8 s, when i was restoring english sports cars, great motors. But, i don t think there was ever much in the way of speed parts, like the small blocks. Did that buick have the trans in the rear? Thought i remembered something weird like that...

Actually, i agree with you on going fast around turns, thats my next project. Right now my black suzy fills that need, with the high foot pegs i can really lean into turns

I hate to say this, but, i may be looking into that goofy PB stuff for the crossmember and arms. Nate may not know what i m talking about with 4WD...lol

[skorpioskorpio]

My chassis is a former 4WD and is currently in Porterbuilts shop, so he has the measurements. I would think if you went that route you could shorten the trailing arms a couple inches and make it all fit.

The secret to performance parts for the Buick engine was to follow it's history, mine was full of aftermarket Triumph TR8 parts, which is where that engine ended up in the UK. Was used in Range Rovers, Rovers, Triumphs, and others.

The 215 came in Skylarks, the rear transaxle was in the Pontiac version the Tempest. This is back when GMs were "based" on the same chassis but could be mechanically very different. Like the 66-70 Riviera and Toronado, same platform and about as different of drivetrains as you could get, one torsion bar FWD the other coil sprung RWD. I used to have a '66 Toronado too, err actually two, beautifully styled car and a tedious beast to drive around town, was only really happy doing 100mph. I had a Offenhouser dual quadrajet manifold in that car, talk about torque steer, holding the wheel while stomping that car off the line was like trying to hand hold a drill press head to drill a hole.

[jaros44sr]

Oops, i did nt mean to offend you! When i use the term "goofy", i mean differant, as in the disney character Goofy.
You re build intriques me, as far as what is possible, and all the different directions one could take

That s what i was thinking on the trailing arms, there is a short straight at the rear of them, and was hoping to cut some off. I don t know if the OEM crossmember bolts directly to the frame or not, seems like it would be difficult to get up in there w/o spreading the frame rails rails. So, i was hoping PB s was a three piece, brackets being separate.....

[skorpioskorpio]

who? what? me? why would you think that would offend me? I pretty regularly refer to my project as goofy, crazy, etc... well, because it is.

The Porterbuilt trailing arms are straight, at least the ones not used for frame dragger drops are. Here is mine:

[jaros44sr]

Nice, does that crossmember bolt in? Or welded?

[skorpioskorpio]

It's a bolt in.

[jaros44sr]

I promise, no OEM part was damaged in this post...this center cap is a reproduction POS.


20140917_111932 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/people/97391199@N06/]


20140917_114107 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/people/97391199@N06/]

[jaros44sr]

This why you can only have 4" BS on 4WD with disc brakes, caliper is just as close. Another 1/2" and it would hit


20140915_114006

Yeah, i know my suspension looks like sh!t.....that s for another day

[skorpioskorpio]

The caps look really good, and I get the brake clearance thing, my brakes clear my wheels by an 1/8th of an inch.

[jaros44sr]

Originally Posted by skorpioskorpio

The caps look really good, and I get the brake clearance thing, my brakes clear my wheels by an 1/8th of an inch.
Attachment 1302726

Can you take a pic of the othe side, i know you have that pin drive adapter going on and would like to see the finished product. Are you going to address the brake heat, maybe cooling ducts...

Yeah, the caps were my second choice, couldn t bring myself to cut holes in the poverty caps, plus they covered up too much of my wheel

[skorpioskorpio]

Well, I haven't even posted these in my own build thread, because I'm kinda waiting to see how this all plays out, but I'll give you a peek. The chassis is in AZ at Porterbuilt, a lot of the parts didn't fit very well, and they are working it out.



I don't really feel the need to do brake ducts, it's being built to drive it hard, and I may do weekend autocross with it, but I don't see me doing track days with it. Too much into all this to risk some yahoo crashing into the side of it. Anyway this is where you really need brake ducts where you are doing hard braking turn after turn with no high speed air circulation, I think the heat sink of 18x10 wheels will be enough for what I'll be doing with it.

Also the vast majority of brake ducts do very little to really help cool the brakes, air has to have really good airflow in and really good airflow out, and not get caught up in the well and cause drag. Except for the pin adapter itself everything that contacts or is in close proximity to the brakes is aluminum which is a good heat wick. Maybe if I feel inspired I'll smear all the mating surfaces with Archtic Silver heat sink compound, probably take 20 or 30 tubes or so, hmmm, wonder if I can buy it in bulk?

[skorpioskorpio]

OK, so went back through your thread and I'm sure it's there somewhere, but your wood bed, it's built on top of pickup wood bed cross rails? It's one of those things that I consider from time to time, plan A is to line the bed (and make side panels) out of recycled HDPE sheet, you know the plastic lumber they make park benches out of, anyway you can get it in colored sheets, I'd do black, it's UV resistant and pretty indestructable. Plan B is to do a wood bed, probably Ipe, it's also tough stuff, but heavy, but I'd probably do it thin and over the steel bed if I did it. In either case I plan on using flanged aircraft track instead of the "official" strips, and use that for mounting bike chocks, back seat, etc... If I was to do the wood I may carry it over into the cab, glove door, door panels etc, give it a little English sports car flavor.

[jaros44sr]

Thanks for the EXCLUSIVE, ok folks you saw it here first. I thought i would like them, and i do. Still working out how to do it to 4WD.
Just thought that being in close proximinty to the wheel, the heat may cause damage to the tire bead, but im sure you covered all your bases

As far as the bed goes, i removed all the sheetmetal.PITA! Two crossmembers were rusty, so i had to replace them. One was the rear, and bought a 73 and later piece. It just happened to have a 3/4" notch in it that fit my wood perfectly,even had the holes in the proper location for the SS ribs, then just layed it on the front step up, and it was all level.

Had to enlongate the mounting holes and use fender washers on the wheel houses as they were now 3/4" higher, and moved the two seams up to match up again, but that was easy, as i just flattened them and rebent were needed.

When this oak fails, as im sure it will, i ll be putting a plastic in, as you suggest, or ipe

If you do it, i ll be here to answer your questions

Not sure if you can pull off door panels and glove box door in wood, seen it done and did nt look right, unless you do it like RR, and use a veneer, serious craftmenship at that company

[skorpioskorpio]

Originally Posted by jaros44sr

Thanks for the EXCLUSIVE, ok folks you saw it here first. I thought i would like them, and i do. Still working out how to do it to 4WD.
Just thought that being in close proximinty to the wheel, the heat may cause damage to the tire bead, but im sure you covered all your bases

As far as the bed goes, i removed all the sheetmetal.PITA! Two crossmembers were rusty, so i had to replace them. One was the rear, and bought a 73 and later piece. It just happened to have a 3/4" notch in it that fit my wood perfectly,even had the holes in the proper location for the SS ribs, then just layed it on the front step up, and it was all level.

Had to enlongate the mounting holes and use fender washers on the wheel houses as they were now 3/4" higher, and moved the two seams up to match up again, but that was easy, as i just flattened them and rebent were needed.

When this oak fails, as im sure it will, i ll be putting a plastic in, as you suggest, or ipe

If you do it, i ll be here to answer your questions

Not sure if you can pull off door panels and glove box door in wood, seen it done and did nt look right, unless you do it like RR, and use a veneer, serious craftmenship at that company

Actually the rotor isn't all that close to the wheel, it's the caliper that is close and heat is shed through the rotor not the caliper. It is all tight in there and I do plan on running Castrol SRF in the brakes which has the highest boiling point of any brake fluid available (it's also by far the most expensive brake fluid there is at $75/liter). I went for what I felt was the best comprimise in brakes, large surface area, mid priced rotors, cheap pads, and all commonly available. I did some sacrificing of performance in exchange for reasonable maintainability and specifically went with the transmission I did and configured it the way I did in order to suppliment the brakes with engine braking.

So are wood bed wheel houses and steel bed wheel houses the same? ...or is one shorter than the other? ... or do the wood bed pickups have a lower structure so the bed is at the same finished height? Anyway, like I said I don't think I'll do an exposed bottom bed anyway, whether it's plastic or wood, either way I think I want to keep the thickness to about a 1/2" as neither material is all that light. The HDPE sheets I don't think would work well unsupported anyway, certainly not at 1/2" thick, I think it'd get wavy from the heat of So Cal. Ipe is very dense and heavy and again I'd want to keep it to about 1/2" to keep the weight down.

As far as cab trim, yes I'd use veneer for that. Apparently with Ipe you have to scorch the surface before you laminate it or it'll seperate because of all the resins in the wood. It's largely replacing Teak now for boat decks and trim, and apparently is harder, more durable and easier to maintain, oh and will take a fine finish ass opposed to teak which is somewhat limited to oil finishes. I know in my (admitedly limited) exposure to marine finishes that teak really needs and thrives with OLD boiled linseed oil, but it's also not something you want to be in an enclosed space with. I wipe down my outdoor furniture with the stuff and you can't keep the rag anywhere inside the house it'll make your nose burn and eyes tear, even if it's several rooms away.

This is the aircraft seat track I plan to use instead of the bed strips, irregardless of whether I go wood or plastic:



There is also end caps to finish the ends, and I think when I worked it out if I mounted it on the low part of the bed corrogations and used 1/2 inch thickness "decking" I could route the material to recess the track flush with the surface. The plan is to use this stuff for anything removable, so top, bulkhead, motorcycle wheel chocks, back seats, tie downs, maybe even removable bed body cross braces.