Engine started but! - The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network

Nima · 10-23-2004, 05:34 PM

Alrighty, The engine started finally. Unfortunatley I couldn't use 68C15 advise to make a whistle to find TDC, therefore I just use other guys advise and used my finger. Although one other board memeber mentioned that even a blind can find it, I was not sure if I could get the TDC exactly (other thing was, I was rotating the engine with one hand while my othe hand's finger was in the hole!). Anyways, When I get the pressure at #1 I dropped the distributor (which went very smooth)and put the rotor toward first wire. When I tried touse the timming light and move the distributor to make it run bettrevit would die or rpm would go higer. Also when I turned off, it was very hard to get it back up again.One other thing, the smoke smells very rich.
So how far am I off?
For those who don't know my story, Somebody tried to play mechanic and changed the intake and carb, then couldn't get the thing started!. It has been a good experience though and I appreeciated all your help.

dwaite72lnghrn · 10-23-2004, 07:55 PM

Round 3 begins. When you started it and started to adjust timing what did the timing light show for a mark. You are looking for a the cut in the damper to show against the degree fin above the damper. You are looking for 8*-12* mark. What carb did you put on the intake. Also did you setup a electric choke or manual choke.

Blue Beard · 10-23-2004, 08:01 PM

Be sure the vac advance hose is disconnected for a good timing.

Nima · 10-23-2004, 08:30 PM

I put edlebrock 1406 which has electric choke which is not connected yet! since I have problem with this damn 12v keyed wire ( I am new in this field). Whats happing, egnine start in a way battery is weak and then comes on. Battery is good though.
Thanks.

RON WOODGEARD · 10-23-2004, 09:15 PM

This really isn't hard, And I'm not trying to be a smarta$$ and give you guff !!! I kinda remember when I first started... Long time ago.

Get yourself a friend to help you, Straighten out a metal clothes hanger, Remove number one sparkplug, Have your friend turn the engine over BY HAND !!!! Then when you are on the compression stroke, push the clothes hanger into the cylinder Plug hole, Now as it comes up Very slowly (Note to friend, Turn Slowly ! ) the piston coming up the Clothes hanger will be pushed up,, If you feel any bind on the clothes hanger, STOP and have your Bud turn the other way and try again, When you have reached top dead center, you'll feel the clothes hanger dropping, Stop, have your friend rock the engine back and forth until you get a feeling where Top Dead Center is.. The clothes hanger will be going up and down a slight amount, when it feels even between the ups and downs you're there..
Then do as you have done, Drop the Distributor in, and align the rotor up with where #1 plug wire is.. When an engine starts hard, It's generally too far advanced, when it spins and sputters it's too far retarded. As has already been stated,, Remove the vacuum hose to the carb. and depending on what cam etc. you have you'll want 8 to 12 degrees initial advance at the crank balancer. Get some white hobby paint and fill in the line on your crank hub ( JUST INSIDE THE LINE ) so the line bounces at you when you hit it with a timing light, then get your advance of 10 Degrees, replace the distributor vacuum line, and you're good to go.. I have used this method for lots and lots of years !!! the only one better is to use the tool that screws into the cylinder spark plug hole, remove all plugs ( makes it easier to turn !) and go through the same thing with a degree wheel to locate T.D.C.. I have the wheel also, but only bother with it when degreeing in a New Camshaft. If you are ONE TOOTH off at dropping the distributor, VS the crank, it will throw you off at the timing light. and you're engine will not run right..

dwaite72lnghrn · 10-23-2004, 09:19 PM

Timming could be off which would cause slow crank. Connect the electric choke up ground the one lead to the carb base, Connect the other lead up to +12 volts temp. jumper to battery(don't forget to disconnect when done). When we setup timing we are strictly setting mechanical things to force an electric charge. When the #1 piston is at TDC (of compression) we want the distributor to be at about 8* with no vacuum advance to the distributor. The Choke when cold will be closed (front top butterfly) as it warms it will slowly open allowing the engine to lean out. When you set #1 to TDC you should have seen the timming mark around the 0* mark. at that point you manual rotated the crank to 0* then you checked the rotor to be sure it was at the #1 wire.
Then you started the engine with the timming light on #1 wire what mark did the light show?
When you moved the distrib. you want the light to go to 8*-12* . Did you see the timing mark move when you move the distrib?
Is it Points or HEI distrib.?
If it starts adjust to more RPM till you get the timing right and the carb setup.
With all the cranking you will have to recharge your battery maybe.

Nima · 10-23-2004, 11:24 PM

Ron, Do you mean I should go ahead and do the whole setting again?
dwaite, When I started the engine for the first time I didn't see any line on my damper, it was nowhere near the numbers. I have point type distributor. I didn't disconnect my distributor vacuum line though. Do you suggest to do that or go redo everything again? Tod (c68) wrote me a detail process the same as Ron, I thought this way could be easier for somebody like me! oops!.

sdmahr · 10-23-2004, 11:34 PM

At this point you need to get the choke wired so it will pull off after the engine warms up. YOU MUST PULL THE VACUUM LINE OFF THE DISTRIBUTOR AND PLUG IT WHILE SETTING THE TIMING. As you move the distributor, you will see the line moving around as you turn the distributor. Set it 8-10 degrees before TDC, (behind 0 on the timing plate), at idle. Tighten the distributor, re-attach the vacuum line and your all done.

You're doing well....don't give up !

71Longbed · 10-24-2004, 01:10 AM

IF your in California Los Angeles area i suggest not even hooking up a choke dont event need the thing unless you live in an area where it snow but other than that your fine, i dont quite like the coat hanger thing if you cant find your self doing it that way instead of a coat hanger stuff a rag in the hole for #1 just so that the tip of the rag covers the hole now what you want to do is hand crank the engine till it hits the power stoke which well be signaled by the rag popping out of the #1 cylinder signaling that your at TDC make sure youre setting your wires in the right firing order clockwise, make sure you place the choke on the carb open so it will start the first time i have mine zip tied open i live in the inland empire and dont need a choke starts just fine in cold weather while raining

RON WOODGEARD · 10-24-2004, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nima

Ron, Do you mean I should go ahead and do the whole setting again?
dwaite, When I started the engine for the first time I didn't see any line on my damper, it was nowhere near the numbers. I have point type distributor. I didn't disconnect my distributor vacuum line though. Do you suggest to do that or go redo everything again? Tod (c68) wrote me a detail process the same as Ron, I thought this way could be easier for somebody like me! oops!.

Yes I do, You stated you could not get it in,( timing light adjusted) so I believe it's still off at the distributor gear.. Remember also, You can "Walk" the distributor gear around by Lifting it slightly out of the hole and turning it at the Rotor and set it back in... It will move it one tooth doing this.. Sometimes I have had to walk it all the way around because I overshot it.. You'll see what I mean when you try it...

keep us appraised of your progress or no progress,, If necessary, I can call you and try to explain it while you're doing it...

Don't think down of yourself....!!!! we all had to start at the same place.. You'll make no mistake that I haven't already done... ( or at least I don't think so anyway

) and you got the gumption to try... way more already then some... don't give up !!!

GMC AMI · 10-24-2004, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RON WOODGEARD

Remove the vacuum hose to the carb.

Good sound advice Ron. I wanted to add my 2 cents worth since he is a newbie on mechanics. Pull the vac. hose at the dist. end and plug so you do not have a vac. leak while setting the timing. I think the gentleman should
buy a good book with illustrations to help him. I know this board has the best
intentions trying to help out, too many cooks spoil the broth! He may be getting info overload here. Also my comment on the blind was not directed at anyone, just a point that you would feel the compression stroke as it will pop your finger away from the spark hole. Mike

Opps, I see now sdmahr has already posted this. Sorry sdmahr for repeating.

dwaite72lnghrn · 10-24-2004, 09:05 AM

Nima, Yep I think you need to start over.
This is what working on trucks/cars is all about. After you fix this 1 and want to take on a bigger project, you know your hooked.
Remember the crank turns 2 times for every 1 of the cam that is driving the distributor. So you could have TDC on the piston and still be out, That is why we want some thing to show you are compressing air like a towel or finger. When the engine cranks it is moving pretty fast so it might take a few times to get it. Take a piece of chalk or white crayon and find the damper mark and highlite the mark with it. When the crank comes up to TDC you should see it near the timing fin. At that point you shouldn't have to move the crank much by hand to get it lined up.
Once you are sure the crank is TDC compression stroke look at the rotor in the distrib and see where it is pointing. This should be pointing towards the electric choke on the carb or just to the right of the vacuum advance on the distrib.
If the vacuum advance is pointing towards the #2 cylinder or there abouts we are ok on the housing and need to zero in on the rotor. When you raise the distrib to realign the rotor you will see the rotor moving counter clock wise, When you feel the distrib clear the gears of the cam move the rotor just a touch to grab the next gear and slowly drop it down again. This will walk the oil pump gear with you as you set the rotor to the correct position. If you move to far your oil pump will be off then you will need a long screw driver or Dowel with a flat blade cut in the end to spin it where you want it. It takes time to get it in, Just take your time be patient.

Nima · 10-24-2004, 11:20 AM

Thanks guys for the support and info, I'll do it again today and let you know.

LONGHAIR · 10-24-2004, 12:38 PM

A few things to add here....

I agree totally with RON WOODGEARD on the wire method for finding TDC because the balancer could be slipped. If you find TDC by this method you can determine this and mark the balancer accordingly.

Second, pulling the dist back out to move the oil pump drive is not necessary. If you stab the dist in the hole and hit the cam where you need to, if the oil pump is mis-aligned all you need to do is turn the crank until it drops in. The cam and dist gears are already meshed in the right place, so when they rotate around to the oil pump the dist will drop that last little bit.

10-23-2004, 08:01 PM	#3
Blue Beard Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Washington State Posts: 8,831	Be sure the vac advance hose is disconnected for a good timing. __________________ 1970 Chev CST 2003 Harley Fatboy 1975 Chevrolet Step Van 1956 Chev Bel Air 1977 Blazer 2WD For Sale $3000.00 1978 Blazer 2WD For Sale $7000.00 1978 Silverado 2005 Monte Carlo

10-23-2004, 09:19 PM	#6
dwaite72lnghrn Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: central pa Posts: 1,525	Timming could be off which would cause slow crank. Connect the electric choke up ground the one lead to the carb base, Connect the other lead up to +12 volts temp. jumper to battery(don't forget to disconnect when done). When we setup timing we are strictly setting mechanical things to force an electric charge. When the #1 piston is at TDC (of compression) we want the distributor to be at about 8* with no vacuum advance to the distributor. The Choke when cold will be closed (front top butterfly) as it warms it will slowly open allowing the engine to lean out. When you set #1 to TDC you should have seen the timming mark around the 0* mark. at that point you manual rotated the crank to 0* then you checked the rotor to be sure it was at the #1 wire. Then you started the engine with the timming light on #1 wire what mark did the light show? When you moved the distrib. you want the light to go to 8-12 . Did you see the timing mark move when you move the distrib? Is it Points or HEI distrib.? If it starts adjust to more RPM till you get the timing right and the carb setup. With all the cranking you will have to recharge your battery maybe. __________________ 72 longhorn c30 502BB/th400/fact air/4.11rear/ custom camper 72 bug(the better half's) under reconstruction 2009 HHR aqua blue 71 GMC k20 350/sm465 2009 Chevy hd3500 6.6 Victory Red crew cab dually Dave & Jeanne

10-24-2004, 01:10 AM	#9
71Longbed Not Mine But A beauty Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Southern CaL Posts: 368	IF your in California Los Angeles area i suggest not even hooking up a choke dont event need the thing unless you live in an area where it snow but other than that your fine, i dont quite like the coat hanger thing if you cant find your self doing it that way instead of a coat hanger stuff a rag in the hole for #1 just so that the tip of the rag covers the hole now what you want to do is hand crank the engine till it hits the power stoke which well be signaled by the rag popping out of the #1 cylinder signaling that your at TDC make sure youre setting your wires in the right firing order clockwise, make sure you place the choke on the carb open so it will start the first time i have mine zip tied open i live in the inland empire and dont need a choke starts just fine in cold weather while raining __________________ 68 Chevy Shortbed 454/400 2000 Chevrolet Camaro SS 6spd 2011 Silverado 5.3 6spd auto

10-24-2004, 09:05 AM	#12
dwaite72lnghrn Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: central pa Posts: 1,525	Nima, Yep I think you need to start over. This is what working on trucks/cars is all about. After you fix this 1 and want to take on a bigger project, you know your hooked. Remember the crank turns 2 times for every 1 of the cam that is driving the distributor. So you could have TDC on the piston and still be out, That is why we want some thing to show you are compressing air like a towel or finger. When the engine cranks it is moving pretty fast so it might take a few times to get it. Take a piece of chalk or white crayon and find the damper mark and highlite the mark with it. When the crank comes up to TDC you should see it near the timing fin. At that point you shouldn't have to move the crank much by hand to get it lined up. Once you are sure the crank is TDC compression stroke look at the rotor in the distrib and see where it is pointing. This should be pointing towards the electric choke on the carb or just to the right of the vacuum advance on the distrib. If the vacuum advance is pointing towards the #2 cylinder or there abouts we are ok on the housing and need to zero in on the rotor. When you raise the distrib to realign the rotor you will see the rotor moving counter clock wise, When you feel the distrib clear the gears of the cam move the rotor just a touch to grab the next gear and slowly drop it down again. This will walk the oil pump gear with you as you set the rotor to the correct position. If you move to far your oil pump will be off then you will need a long screw driver or Dowel with a flat blade cut in the end to spin it where you want it. It takes time to get it in, Just take your time be patient. __________________ 72 longhorn c30 502BB/th400/fact air/4.11rear/ custom camper 72 bug(the better half's) under reconstruction 2009 HHR aqua blue 71 GMC k20 350/sm465 2009 Chevy hd3500 6.6 Victory Red crew cab dually Dave & Jeanne

10-23-2004, 05:34 PM	#1
Nima Blue 67 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Western WA Posts: 1,179	Engine started but! Alrighty, The engine started finally. Unfortunatley I couldn't use 68C15 advise to make a whistle to find TDC, therefore I just use other guys advise and used my finger. Although one other board memeber mentioned that even a blind can find it, I was not sure if I could get the TDC exactly (other thing was, I was rotating the engine with one hand while my othe hand's finger was in the hole!). Anyways, When I get the pressure at #1 I dropped the distributor (which went very smooth)and put the rotor toward first wire. When I tried touse the timming light and move the distributor to make it run bettrevit would die or rpm would go higer. Also when I turned off, it was very hard to get it back up again.One other thing, the smoke smells very rich. So how far am I off? For those who don't know my story, Somebody tried to play mechanic and changed the intake and carb, then couldn't get the thing started!. It has been a good experience though and I appreeciated all your help.

10-23-2004, 07:55 PM	#2
dwaite72lnghrn Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: central pa Posts: 1,525	Round 3 begins. When you started it and started to adjust timing what did the timing light show for a mark. You are looking for a the cut in the damper to show against the degree fin above the damper. You are looking for 8-12 mark. What carb did you put on the intake. Also did you setup a electric choke or manual choke. __________________ 72 longhorn c30 502BB/th400/fact air/4.11rear/ custom camper 72 bug(the better half's) under reconstruction 2009 HHR aqua blue 71 GMC k20 350/sm465 2009 Chevy hd3500 6.6 Victory Red crew cab dually Dave & Jeanne Last edited by dwaite72lnghrn; 10-23-2004 at 07:56 PM. Reason: spelling

10-23-2004, 08:30 PM	#4
Nima Blue 67 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Western WA Posts: 1,179	I put edlebrock 1406 which has electric choke which is not connected yet! since I have problem with this damn 12v keyed wire ( I am new in this field). Whats happing, egnine start in a way battery is weak and then comes on. Battery is good though. Thanks.

10-23-2004, 09:15 PM	#5
RON WOODGEARD Resident Young Old Dude ! Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Nevada Posts: 1,948	This really isn't hard, And I'm not trying to be a smarta$$ and give you guff !!! I kinda remember when I first started... Long time ago. Get yourself a friend to help you, Straighten out a metal clothes hanger, Remove number one sparkplug, Have your friend turn the engine over BY HAND !!!! Then when you are on the compression stroke, push the clothes hanger into the cylinder Plug hole, Now as it comes up Very slowly (Note to friend, Turn Slowly ! ) the piston coming up the Clothes hanger will be pushed up,, If you feel any bind on the clothes hanger, STOP and have your Bud turn the other way and try again, When you have reached top dead center, you'll feel the clothes hanger dropping, Stop, have your friend rock the engine back and forth until you get a feeling where Top Dead Center is.. The clothes hanger will be going up and down a slight amount, when it feels even between the ups and downs you're there.. Then do as you have done, Drop the Distributor in, and align the rotor up with where #1 plug wire is.. When an engine starts hard, It's generally too far advanced, when it spins and sputters it's too far retarded. As has already been stated,, Remove the vacuum hose to the carb. and depending on what cam etc. you have you'll want 8 to 12 degrees initial advance at the crank balancer. Get some white hobby paint and fill in the line on your crank hub ( JUST INSIDE THE LINE ) so the line bounces at you when you hit it with a timing light, then get your advance of 10 Degrees, replace the distributor vacuum line, and you're good to go.. I have used this method for lots and lots of years !!! the only one better is to use the tool that screws into the cylinder spark plug hole, remove all plugs ( makes it easier to turn !) and go through the same thing with a degree wheel to locate T.D.C.. I have the wheel also, but only bother with it when degreeing in a New Camshaft. If you are ONE TOOTH off at dropping the distributor, VS the crank, it will throw you off at the timing light. and you're engine will not run right..

10-23-2004, 11:24 PM	#7
Nima Blue 67 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Western WA Posts: 1,179	Ron, Do you mean I should go ahead and do the whole setting again? dwaite, When I started the engine for the first time I didn't see any line on my damper, it was nowhere near the numbers. I have point type distributor. I didn't disconnect my distributor vacuum line though. Do you suggest to do that or go redo everything again? Tod (c68) wrote me a detail process the same as Ron, I thought this way could be easier for somebody like me! oops!.

10-23-2004, 11:34 PM	#8
sdmahr Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: South Texas....the Valley Posts: 199	At this point you need to get the choke wired so it will pull off after the engine warms up. YOU MUST PULL THE VACUUM LINE OFF THE DISTRIBUTOR AND PLUG IT WHILE SETTING THE TIMING. As you move the distributor, you will see the line moving around as you turn the distributor. Set it 8-10 degrees before TDC, (behind 0 on the timing plate), at idle. Tighten the distributor, re-attach the vacuum line and your all done. You're doing well....don't give up !

10-24-2004, 11:20 AM	#13
Nima Blue 67 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Western WA Posts: 1,179	Thanks guys for the support and info, I'll do it again today and let you know.

10-24-2004, 12:38 PM	#14
LONGHAIR just can't cover up my redneck Join Date: May 2004 Location: Columbus OH Posts: 11,414	A few things to add here.... I agree totally with RON WOODGEARD on the wire method for finding TDC because the balancer could be slipped. If you find TDC by this method you can determine this and mark the balancer accordingly. Second, pulling the dist back out to move the oil pump drive is not necessary. If you stab the dist in the hole and hit the cam where you need to, if the oil pump is mis-aligned all you need to do is turn the crank until it drops in. The cam and dist gears are already meshed in the right place, so when they rotate around to the oil pump the dist will drop that last little bit.



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