Crate vs built or vice versa

[davidh]

Okay, lets be fair and keep this to the 350 $1295 engine from GM. As some of you read TX's firefighter's engine gave up but it was built for $500. For example I have built 350's for around $650 while my buddy's GM 250hp didn't have near the power, similar equiped, 4bbl, duals, same style pick up. Of course mine had a little cam in it. He even mentioned how does your truck have so much more get and go than mine?
I think for $1300-1500 you could build a nice 350, hyperutectic pistons, balanced, decent cam, find some 882 heads have them worked on a little and it would run circles on that crate 350. The crate motor's advantage would be the warranty. I get the notion in this forum sometimes that anything built is not as good as a "crate" motor. I disagree on some motors and agree with others.

Let's have the debate. you have $1500 to spend on a 350 what would you do and why. Let's keep this to half ton truck that could be used as a daily driver and occasional towning. NO a 292 Comp cam is not a daily driver either but something with 270 or less duration, dual plane intake, stock manifolds.

[Palf70Step]

It all depends on what you have and can do. For me to rebuild an engine, locally the machine work would eat up the budget real quick. If I had some one do the assembly also, which I am not real good at, that would easily make the $1500 plus range. There is also no warrenty on the local rebuild engine, least not like the crate. Depends on what you want out of an engine. For me to have a hotter engine, it would easily run me 2500. Just depends on what you can do and what's available.

I went with the crate solely for the warrenty and the fact I couldn't get one rebuilt for that much locally., of course Katrina had an influence on that

[cdowns]

with the cost of machine work here i can't build (even with used parts) anywhere near what i can buy new from GM for the $1500

[davidh]

Places usually price in ok would be around $500 for machine, spend $400 on a northern parts kit, $150 for balance and if youre not up to assemblying your self add $250

[Longhorn Man]

The crate motors aren't as great as everyone thinks, that waranty does give you a warm and fuzzy feeling, but just try and get them to replace your engine. They will argue and fight you every step of the way. We've had to do it on a few crates over the years from GM at work....still better than the junk that Jasper has been putting out, but still.
The rod that gave out in TX's firefighter's engine had been treated just like any rebuilder woulda treated it. Either roll the dice on old rods, or cough up the money for new ones.... most rebuilds have old rods, and they could break at any given moment. It just isn't a common thing to happen.



Myself, I would build my own. with a 350, say you are starting out with one that runs, is just tired or smoking, you could easily build one up for 1500 that would be just as good, and even have some better parts, than any low end GM crate.
True, you wouldn't have a warranty, but anyone who has tried to cash in that warranty already feels cheated.

[Green Machine]

The GM Crate 350 is a nice drop in deal, but it is is soooo stock.......... With 76 cc heads, you can easily run flat top pistons. I think they use plian cast iron rings also, with dished pistons, and a thick head gasket.

If you build you own, you can upgrade to hyper flat tops, moly rings, get the deck clearance to around .040, better rod bolts, completely balanced, use a modern but small cam profile, better valve springs if needed, and back cut the valves if wanted for same or less cash, but more work and hassle of course.

Around here, I can't get the gm motor for 1295, local dealer said his cost is 1500 since they only buy one at a time nad he would have to mark it up to 1700 to make it worthwile. If I order from Pace it is about 1395, plus 200 shipping to a freight drop, add another 100 to my door and it doesn't look so cheap anymore.

Then you still have to buy, in my case anyway, front balancer, Intake manifold, carb, and distributor. Around here anyway your can buy a complete rebuildable running "core" for 200-300 and will atleast have a stock carb and intake to get you going, and will have the balancer and distributor too, maybe even a spare alternator or ps pump with the deal.

[Billla]

I got on a similar thread and kind of "got into it" a bit. So I'll start with a level-set: there's nothing wrong with the Goodwrench crate motor if you're looking at a basic drop-in engine with a warranty. I think you *might* be able to build something for less, but at the same time we need to accept that used parts are always a crap shoot.

So we're comparing apples and apples, let's agree to stick with FWHP and let's benchmark the Goodwrench at GM's published specs:

Horsepower: 249 HP @ 5,000 RPM
Torque: 304 Ft/Lbs @ 3,500 RPM

So, having said all that:

I agree that you can build a decent performing 350 for ~$2000 with some good luck with used parts. I'd start with a "seasoned" block that would accept an .030 bore and hone, cast crank that could be ground under on main/rod and 8 good resizeable rods. Figure on reusing all the sheet metal - valve covers, pan, etc. $150 for the engine, $400 for the machine work. $300 for a rebuild kit with pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets and oil pump. $175 for cam/lifters. $450 for induction (intake/used carb + OH kit). $80 for the timing chain. $600 for assembled Vortech iron heads. Round up and figure $2200 for everything. This is $1K more than the crate motor...but should give pretty close to 340 HP.

Now compare this to the 350/330 GMPP crate engine for $2300 - add intake/carb/distributor and have a brand new engine for maybe 3K...or let GMPP do it for you for $3800.

To me, the financials are pretty close to a wash; if you've got a hard budget you can clearly come in under the price of a crate engine. But for not that much more you get something that just drops in - even a performance engine.

I think the question isn't what's the best value but what do YOU want - I like the idea of building my own engines. I've built over 100 engines, and I've had some killers, made some mistakes but overall I wouldn't have missed any of it for the world. The idea of dropping a crate motor just isn't all that interesting to me.

My $02

[72armyswbtruck]

Pros:
Me, I went for the warm and fuzzy of the GM Crate engine. couldn't beet the price especially with the 3 year warranty. As for replacement, mine thru a rod out the bottom, I had the truck towed to the local GM dealership, with proof of purchase and they not only replaced the engine but they pulled the old one, and reinstalled the new one.
Cons:
not a large amount of Hourse power for the money, but as soon as the warranty period is up I'm putting in a cam and new lifters

[Ron 586]

If I'm paying to get it done I'll take the crate engine. 1 or 2 days you got your truck back and no worries for 36000 miles. If I'm doing it myself I'll take the crate engine. 1 or 2 days trucks running and no worries for 36000 miles. If you figure in the waiting time getting block, crank, heads checked and worked then waiting for parts to get there, your time cleaning and putting it together you have close to a week in it. That means you have to bum rides for a week, you are grouchy because everything is taking so long. Your wife ain't talking to you because you're grouchy, not to mention ruining 4 of her best towels getting grease on them. Yep I'll take the crate engine. BTW What's wrong with having a 292 Comp Cam in your truck. It'll keep your ole lady from taking it to go to yard sales every weekend.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by Ron 586

If you figure in the waiting time getting block, crank, heads checked and worked then waiting for parts to get there, your time cleaning and putting it together you have close to a week in it. That means you have to bum rides for a week, you are grouchy because everything is taking so long.

I think another point is how often you do this stuff; 1 engine a year means it's not worth having the tools, stand, etc. and the crate engine becomes a good deal for another reason.

I've got a 350 HP 350 "mule motor" that I drop in when I'm building something - so the wait thing isn't a factor. But that the process takes 2-3 weeks if you're lucky and putting some hard time in over the weekend. I have done a 1 weekend pull/strip/measure take to shop, stuff back on Friday, assembly and breakin the following weekend...but it's a deathmarch

Good discussion!

[davidh]

Originally Posted by Ron 586

If I'm paying to get it done I'll take the crate engine. 1 or 2 days you got your truck back and no worries for 36000 miles. If I'm doing it myself I'll take the crate engine. 1 or 2 days trucks running and no worries for 36000 miles. If you figure in the waiting time getting block, crank, heads checked and worked then waiting for parts to get there, your time cleaning and putting it together you have close to a week in it. That means you have to bum rides for a week, you are grouchy because everything is taking so long. Your wife ain't talking to you because you're grouchy, not to mention ruining 4 of her best towels getting grease on them. Yep I'll take the crate engine. BTW What's wrong with having a 292 Comp Cam in your truck. It'll keep your ole lady from taking it to go to yard sales every weekend.

Okay one thing here. 292 comp cams and bonstock 250hp motors Do not mix or play very well together.

[davidh]

Originally Posted by Billla

I think another point is how often you do this stuff; 1 engine a year means it's not worth having the tools, stand, etc. and the crate engine becomes a good deal for another reason.

I've got a 350 HP 350 "mule motor" that I drop in when I'm building something - so the wait thing isn't a factor. But that the process takes 2-3 weeks if you're lucky and putting some hard time in over the weekend. I have done a 1 weekend pull/strip/measure take to shop, stuff back on Friday, assembly and breakin the following weekend...but it's a deathmarch

Good discussion!

I have done one like this. Came home for spring break pulled the engine sunday, partied my a$* off 5 nights in a row, took a 350, machine work, put together and drove it around the block Sunday when I left.
Have we got to where we don't work on our trucks out here?! I come to this sight for motivation!!! This is the motor I'm talking about above that has a lot more power than a stock 350, it now has 6K on it as well.

[junkyardjohn]

Originally Posted by davidh

Places usually price in ok would be around $500 for machine, spend $400 on a northern parts kit, $150 for balance and if youre not up to assemblying your self add $250

I USUALLY BUILD EM MYSELF. IT USUALLY COSTS ME AROUND $2200 TO $2800 TO BUILD A SBC & $3500 TO $4000 TO BUILD A BBC. & THATS WITH ME DOING ALL THE LABOUR. SHOOT I HAD $1400 IN THE LAST SET OF BBC 049 HEADS THAT I HAD REBUILT & THAT WAS BEFORE BUYING FULL ROLLER ROCKERS. I DON'T USE THE $400 NORTHERN PARTS KIT. I DON'T GO THE CHEAPEST ROUGHT I CAN FIND BECAUSE THAT IS NOT WHAT I WANT BETWEEN MY FRAMERAILS. CRATE MOTORS ARE GREAT IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT. I JUST HAPPEN TO WANT MORE OUT OF MY MOTORS. JOHN

[truckdude239]

Originally Posted by Palf70Step

It all depends on what you have and can do. For me to rebuild an engine, locally the machine work would eat up the budget real quick.
that

yup i was looking at building one about 2 months ago and the machine work was right at 550 buxs

[_Dick_]

Let's have the debate. you have $1500 to spend on a 350 what would you do and why. Let's keep this to half ton truck that could be used as a daily driver and occasional towning. NO a 292 Comp cam is not a daily driver either but something with 270 or less duration, dual plane intake, stock manifolds.

I am not trying to put words in davidh's mouth ,but I seem to read his words different then most you got 1500 saved up ,because of house payments ,food , kids cloths , electric bills there is no more money to put in a truck engine

now just guessing ,but i bet he knows and i sure know we have many super engine people on this board ,respected people with experence ,people i sure look up to and learn from every day ,guess we are asking if there is only 1500 bucks what should we do ,buy a 1295 GM crate or build our own ,
if it build our own? can you help? tell us how and where we can use our 1500 to get the truck running ?,course everyone knows 1500 buys you limits but hell its better then walking never getting your truck on the road is a really big downer

I am trying to get everyone to remember when 1500 bucks was hard to save up it was a big deal

Now to all the people I so respect and listen on this Board ,Is the 1295 GM crate ,just a waste of money ,is it really a new motor with new parts or what ? If i didnt get a engine with my truck what should i do ? can anyone help me?, its 1500 or sell my truck for parts and take up stamp collectiing

I am so Proud to be a part of this Board and it's because of the people here they are the best ,and no life has been good to me my trucks running ,But you can be sure i remenber when 1500 was sure hard to come by

Thanks for Reading

[special-K]

For $1,500 you can have a motor overhauled (not rebuilt) or buy a stock relacement crate motor.
Every piece in the crate motor is new.
A warranty claim will be a messy situation with either one.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by _Dick_

if there is only 1500 bucks what should we do ,buy a 1295 GM crate or build our own.

If $1500 is the bottom of the barrel, then the crate engine is a "sure thing" - it will drop in and run no matter what. Building is a crap shoot - it just takes one thing to go wrong (crank is crooked, block has a crack, etc.) to eat up a bunch of money.

[68Stepbed]

OK here is how I see it. I put one in my truck because I needed a good engine with a good warranty for daily driven use. I swapped from the 6 banger so I didn't have anything else. That's where I screwed up. By the time I bought carb, intake, balancer, dist, etc. etc., I had almost as much as the 330HP/350 Deluxe crate engine. I've still only got 260HP.If you are swapping it out with another small block that already has the parts you need, it's a good deal.

The only complaint I've heard from these engines is the heads. After the warranty runs out, the heads start messing up. I talked to a guy that said as soon as his 3yrs was up the engine started smoking all the time. He said the vavle seals were leaking really bad and some were even gone! Just recently, I can't get intake gaskets to seal at all on mine. They all leak from the inside around the ports. I can't get the rear block valley gasket to seal, it consantly drips oil now. I don't know what's going on.

The other thing is the warranty. It has a 3yr./50,000 mi. parts & labor war. if used on vehicles from '69 to '85 originally available with a 350. Everything else is 12 mo./12,000 mi. limited warranty. My truck is a 68, which wasn't available with a 350, so I would have been better off with a higher hp crate engine with the same warranty. Of course, all 69-72 trucks were available with a 350, so the good warranty still applies. Just something to think about.

I'm fairly happy with my engine, but I do wish I had more hp. It was still a decent deal for me considering that we don't have many machine shops here and they're high priced. Nobody here seems to deal with rebuilding engines anymore unless it's for racing.

Just my .02

[junkyardjohn]

ONE THING TO CONSIDER IS THAT THESE MOTORS ARE MADE IN MEXICO. (NO OFFENSE TO ANY OF OUR HISPANIC MEMBERS) MEXICO IS NOT EXACTLY KNOWN FOR IT'S MANUFACTURING PROWNESS. SOMETHING ABOUT A MOTOR THAT IS BUILT, USING $8 A DAY 13 YEAR OLD LABOUR THAT DOESN'T APPEAL TO ME. NOW... THAT BEING SAID ... WHO DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO TAKE MORE CARE IN BUILDING A MOTOR THAT IS EXPECTED TO LAST 100,000 MILES?? ME OR SOMEONE WHO NEVER HAS THE HOPE OR OPTION OF OWNING CHEVY TRUCK??
(QUOTE)If $1500 is the bottom of the barrel, then the crate engine is a "sure thing" - it will drop in and run no matter what. Building is a crap shoot - it just takes one thing to go wrong (crank is crooked, block has a crack, etc.) to eat up a bunch of money.(QUOTE)
ONLY THE FIRST TIME OR TWO. AFTER BUILDING ONE OR TWO, YOU ARE NO LONGER SURPRISED WHEN A MOTOR YOU'VE BUILT FIRES RIGHT UP. JOHN

[Rondog]

Not to change the subject or hijack the thread, but how good are the GM 350hp Ram Jet 350 motors? I know they're above the price range in this discussion, but I'd like to know what others think of them. Thanks!

[Ron 586]

davidh and fellow board members, if my half-*ssed attempt at humor bothered you I'm sorry. I do stand by taking the crate engine if you are on a tight budget and time frame. I won't bore you with my life story but if you check out my bio and sig it's not hard to figure out. I have made a few mistakes but lived and learned through it. From 1972 until 1995 everything that my wife and I drove was built in my yard, driveway, or shop if I had one and out of junkyard or cast off parts. Our first store bought car was a 1991 Dodge Dynasty with 88000 miles. I can remember well when $15 was a good thing. I'll quit rambling on and read what others think. Don't know how I sent that other post twice.

[krue]

Another consideration for me is that I can buy the parts to rebuild my engine as the money comes available (I can't save money for squat) and don't have to drop $1500 at one time.

[Bowtie67]

Another option that wasnt described here was buying a shortblock, A shortblock is basically just the block & rotating assembly and then you can add your favorite goodies to it, That is how my last engine was put together, by the time I would have gotten done doing all the ballancing buying all the custum rods, Pistons, Forged Crankshaft, custum block, etc. and for me there isnt any real good machine shops in the area and the one shop that the guy is good I would end up waiting 3 months to egt everything back and would have cost far more than having it custom buit to begine with. And I still get a three year warrentee. Even GM has shortblock assemblies, ordering just the base target shortblock & add some descent heads and cam and your pushing some of those ponies you orginally wanted to for a lot less. As far as cast pistons rings go, there is nothing wrong with cast pistons rings they are what is in most stock engines and they go 200,000+ miles, it's all how they are taken care of & maintained. Beat the snot out of it and it will only last so long.

[N2TRUX]

One thing to consider in this debate is being able to get the machine work done. I have a brother-in-law that builds transmission's for a living and he knows what works and what doesn't. I asked him about rebuilding the stock 350 that came in my 77. He didn't think twice when he suggested a crate motor. He said his shop has tried every machine shop around and had poor results or been over charged. He "highly" recommended buying a crate motor and save the frustration of dealing with machine shops that don't take pride in their work.

If you have the time, knowledge, and tools there is no doubt that a rebuild will allow you to get more bang for your buck. What you save in one place and can be used in another to build a much stronger motor.

If you do not have the time, knowledge, or tools then a crate motor is a no brainer. You do take a chance with warranty claims unless it is installed at an authorized service center, and that's not a 100% guaranty either.

If you want to go past the base motor and step up to an injected motor like I did with the Ramjet 350 then it is almost impossible to beat a dyno tested package deal.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by junkyardjohn

ONLY THE FIRST TIME OR TWO. AFTER BUILDING ONE OR TWO, YOU ARE NO LONGER SURPRISED WHEN A MOTOR YOU'VE BUILT FIRES RIGHT UP. JOHN

My comment wasn't about experience, but about used parts. If you buy a junk engine, you have no idea what you're getting until you tear it down. Plus, it's easy to get ripped off on used parts unless you make the purchase contingent on passing a magnaflux test...and who does that?

Typically when I go junking I pick up 2-3 engines figuring I'll get one good one and parts...but with $1500 to spend a failed block or crank is a problem.