will not start when hot

[screwballl]

Ok i got the hesitation problem solved, now I would like to hearsome opinions on 2 other subjects:
1) If I go somewhere, turn off the burb, come back it will start then drive somewhere else and turn it off there, it will not start after the second stop. The only suggestion someone had is a heatsheild for the Starter since all the power wires going to it are in good condition. Someone said they have a thermal sensor that will not allow it to work if it is running too hot.
Suggestions or previous experiences?

2) Brakes question, seems at any given time when releasing the brakes from a stop (or slow up), when I release the pedal, I hear what sounds liek one or both rear brakes releasing with a jolt or "bump". Sometimes it doesn't happen until after I touch the gas and start going.
I am having my brakes checked tomorrow (and hopefully getting true dual exhaust too) so hopefully it just needs adjustment or pads, not something serious.
Suggestions or previous experience with this problem?

Both are on same burb, mentioned in my sig below.

[Bob Gervais]

You may have a faulty starter. I'm not sure about the big block trucks, but I know my small block doesn't have a heat shield.

This sounds like a case of heat soak of the starter, which then causes your no start condition. I usually hate to just replace parts, but diagnosing a bad starter without it being hot is a little tough. They'll usually pass the starter tests, unless you can duplicate the conditions at the bench tester. I would say go ahead and replace the starter.

In regards to the rear brakes, it sounds like they're sticking on the backing plates. The brake inspection will show that if it's happening. If the shoes are good, all that should be needed is cleaning and lubing.

Good luck with the true duals! I installed a Flowtech true dual setup that I bought off Ebay a while back, and love it!

[screwballl]

I appreciate the help Bob!
I will report back after my burbs checkup today.

[Bob Gervais]

No problem at all, glad to help. It'll be interesting to find out what the starter problem is.

[speesh]

Sounds like the starter to me, Big Blocks are notorious for this problem. I had a 72 with a 402, and it did this to me sometimes. I never did get it solved.... probably a heatsheild would help.

[screwballl]

Ok the brakes problem is taken care of, the seals on the passenger side had leaked and allowed the axle gear fluid to get all over the drum and pads. This caused the brake to heat up, stick and not always let go. This cost me $333 ($200 of which was labor).

Now I need to figure out the starter.

Also the dual exhaust didn't work out because my truck is said to have/need a cat. Since it does NOT have one right now, they will only put it on if they also put on the cats which doubles the price. Friggin swindlers...

[screwballl]

argh!!! well I ended up with a $500 brake/seal job... the driver side cylinder blew out gushing brake fluid all over the inside of that drum... they warrantied the brake/labor portion but it cost another $178 for new cyliners on both sides...

damn I need to learn how to do this **** myself and get the proper tools when I do...

still looking for suggestions on the starter problem...

[Bob Gervais]

Originally Posted by screwballl

argh!!! well I ended up with a $500 brake/seal job... the driver side cylinder blew out gushing brake fluid all over the inside of that drum... they warrantied the brake/labor portion but it cost another $178 for new cyliners on both sides...

damn I need to learn how to do this **** myself and get the proper tools when I do...

still looking for suggestions on the starter problem...

One of the best things about these trucks is how easy they are to work on, which makes for good learning.

For example, the wheel cylinders are about $10 each at the parts store, rear brake shoes are about $15, axle seals are about $5 each. For a beginner, plan on at least a Saturday to do the job. The seals are the most difficult part of the job, and even they're not all that hard.

Pick up a Haynes manual, and a tool set at Sears. I've seen good sets that run about $100 or so. You're going to make your money back on the first job you do yourself.

And of course, ask questions! I'm sure there's a lot of us willing to help!


Regarding the cats, that's a federal law, as far as I know. Vehicles that originally came equipped with a cat need to have one. Now, if your state doesn't do emissions testing, or visual testing for emissions items, then you can put on whatever you want to. You'll have to do it yourself though, most shops won't eliminate converters because of Federal regs.

I put a Flowtech true dual exhaust kit on my 87 about two months ago. No cats, but I'm not due for emissions inspection for another year and a half. I'll put them in before emissions testing. I bought my kit on Ebay, but it is for a small block. I'm not sure if they make one for the big block or not.

LMC Truck had some dual exhaust kits in their last catalog, but I can't find the catalog. Perhaps they have a dual kit for a BB?

The only thing I don't like about my kit is the mufflers I chose. I cheaped out and bought Summit Turbo mufflers, which were $15 each. They sound like poop. Also, because the dual kit didn't come with an H-pipe, the exhaust note sounds a little funny.

I ordered an h pipe kit from Summit last night for $30, and some Flowtech Raptor mufflers on Ebay for $50 shipped for the pair. Hopefully this solves the "sounding like poop" problem.

[screwballl]

A friend that had gear lube in his baby bottle said that for truck like mine with O2 sensors and stuff that it is best to get a X pipe setup and put the sensor directly in the middle of that then run the rest back.
I get LMC (for burbs) and Summit pretty regularly and JC Whitney emails all the time. Lets see... Bolt on system....
Glass pack system, 454, 2WD 3/4....$180
dual turbo system... $200.. oh wait thats 73-86 models, not 91. probably because cats?? it should still work...
plus SS tips, angled 2.25" $30 ea.
the only problem I see is that these are 2 1/4" systems, being a 454 I would think that 2 1/2 should be minimum or am I wrong on that since it will be true dual?
I would get the dual glass pack since I liek that sound and the angled tips...
so $240 for the entire system, I would be looking at minimum $350 for a cat back system...

[Bob Gervais]

Originally Posted by screwballl

A friend that had gear lube in his baby bottle said that for truck like mine with O2 sensors and stuff that it is best to get a X pipe setup and put the sensor directly in the middle of that then run the rest back.
I get LMC (for burbs) and Summit pretty regularly and JC Whitney emails all the time. Lets see... Bolt on system....
Glass pack system, 454, 2WD 3/4....$180
dual turbo system... $200.. oh wait thats 73-86 models, not 91. probably because cats?? it should still work...
plus SS tips, angled 2.25" $30 ea.
the only problem I see is that these are 2 1/4" systems, being a 454 I would think that 2 1/2 should be minimum or am I wrong on that since it will be true dual?
I would get the dual glass pack since I liek that sound and the angled tips...
so $240 for the entire system, I would be looking at minimum $350 for a cat back system...

Not sure on the big block, but my 87 small block has the O2 sensor in the driver's side manifold, which makes it a lot easier for doing exhaust work. No need to weld in an O2 sensor bung.

I've seen the systems in LMC and the others as well, they look very similar to the Flowtech system that I bought. So similar in fact, that I would guess there was one manufacturer making them, and selling them to the different companies, who re-brand them. The Flowtech system I bought is 2 1/4 ID, and the pipes are mandrel bent (no crushing or wrinkled pipes), which makes it flow better than a crush bent pipe. Overall, I'm very satisfied with it, especially for the price.

Your friend is right about the x pipe, they actually work better than an h pipe. On the 4wd though, it would be very difficult to make an x pipe setup. Too much stuff in the way. I'm going to mount the cats as close to the manifolds as possible, and put the h pipe right after the cats, then the rest will be the Flowtech duals that are on there now. That ought to make it sound better, and make it emissions legal. I'm thinking the mufflers might not be loud enough with the cats, but I'll deal with that when I get there. I'll probably end up getting some Flowmaster 40's or something eventually. For now though, I need to take the budget route.

As far as the years LMC and the others list, I'm not sure why it doesn't list 91. Every vehicle under a certain GVW since 76 had to have cats installed from the factory. I would guess that if it's listed for an 86, it'll fit yours as well.

Regarding the size of the pipes, I'll assume that the stock big block has a 3" single exhaust from the factory, like the heavy duty small blocks did. That system has an area of about 7 square inches. Dual 2 1/4 inch pipes have an area that's almost 8 square inches combined. So, the duals listed for your truck will flow more than the stock system did. Especially if they're mandrel bent. Most factory single exhausts (or their replacements) are crush bent, and don't flow as well. So, I think the setup you're looking at will work just fine. It'll look great with those stainless tips too!

[Bandit76]

Regarding h pipe, I've read that dialing ina crossover location is paramount to the performance. Paint your dual pipes and do pass on the street. Where the paint bubbles will be the hot spot for desired crossover point of the H. Basically just will equalize pressure across both sides of your engine and the path is going to flow from the higher pressure to the lower pressure.

The o2 sensor is just an average reading anyways. If you really cared you could tweak air to fuel ratios to dial in slightly lean or excess o2 and away you go. Some mechanic friends of mine showed me an O2 from a toyota and one from a chrysler and they were identical except for price. The bung came with the sensor.If you can take your O2 down to the parts store and tell him that you want a bung for a honda or something and compare. You might find the same for cheaper and just match the thread and weld it in. Worth a shot.

I have 2-1/4 on my 454 and they were sufficient. Any Stock 5.0 Mustangs were nothing to me off the line.

The starter has a few things you could do....

Does it crank at all is question one? Solenoid CLicks are battery related. PArk neutral switch may hold you out if not making. Clutch pedal on manual.
Crank but no go, is posssible internal motor clutch on starter. Pull the thing out. two bolts 9/16" head I think and test with your battery. You will need a jumper to hook 12 volts to the starter and see what it does. I've done it with jumper cables. Watch yourslef as it may want to move around and there is a lot of amps behind the battery. If not sure, don't do it. Any shop worth its weight would just try it for you and if you have it out, it should only take a minute for them.

I also found on mine that the posts on the solenoid would get all corroded and bunged up. A solenoid is cheap and worth changing. In the event you swap your starter motor in for a newer one, keep the solenoid for the new one.

Any inability for conduction would be amplified with heat. Take a good wire brush and clean any metal to metal posts to a shiny copper color and connect all the wires again. Clean the posts on the battery too.

If it cranks and still no go, I had a fuel pump relay issue once. Every 7th or 8th try it would start. Found the relay fell off the clip on the firewall and was half melted on the exhaust manifold. This saved my cat. Fan still got him sort of. Bad morning.

Intermittent is the worst because a shop will say its fine and next trip out it dies or whatever. Gotta be doing it before you can tell what's wrong.

Just an off chance, 91 with a 91 engine? trouble codes from ECM may shed some light.

Also, grease and oil is organic. Doesn't conduct electricity. Water with any mineral in it will conduct electricity. Enough can't be said for clean and dry.


Good luck

[Bob Gervais]

Good idea with the paint, I'll try that out!

[screwballl]

Ok it is stock 91 with 91 motor...
I turn the key and the lights dim but nothing, no sounds, no clicks, no turning, nothing at all as if the power was being sent but it is not turning. It is auto so no manual clutch worries. Does the same in either Park or Neutral. In this situation, it doesn't matter if I try it once or 20 times, same result each time. The only cure is to let it sit for a few hours to cool off. In the winter usually an hour or two is long enough. In the summer usually 4+ hours.

I will look at the haynes manual and see if theres any special picture or mention of the solenoid.
It has a fairly new battery with 880 CCA and it checks out fine...

[Bandit76]

the other thing that I did with mine is wire a momentary pushbutton up to the starter. This eliminates the whole starting circuits. Like a hot wire. You need to disconnect the main start wire and run two new wires from your starter to the cab or temporary somewhere easy. This way you know that there is nothing else stopping the circuit from being made. Just make sure the key is switched to on so the ECM and all other power is everywhere. It will crank with the key off just so you know. I did this to mine and was going to dig up the starting issue. Mine was the exact same. I did this and it started first time every time. I was actually planning on permanently rewiring a disabler and start circuit with it so that thiefs could wreck my ignition switch trying to steal it and not be able to figure it out. That actually happened once. Ignition switch wrecked, window smashed, steering wheel freewheeling and my truck sitting where I had left it.

Dimming lights to me means that it has found another path to ground and is by passing the entire circuit somehwere or The heat soaked starter is also a very good possibility and yer pretty much stuck replacing it or smacking it with a hammer periodically. Locked rotors of any motor will draw a ton of amps and go no place.

Aside from getting out a voltmeter and seeing if you have voltage at the terminals while it is hot is about the only thing left. You could take a ring terminal and hang it off the starter terminal that cranks the starter. Put the wire to an area in the engine compartment and tape it off so it can't short on anything. When this happens again, take the wire and connect one end to a 12 volt tester and connect the other lead of the tester to the frame somewhere. Get someone to crank the key over and see if your tester lights up. If it does, then you have power and the circuit is fine. If no light, then you pretty much can count on getting a new starter.

Wreckers are good places to go if you can't afford new. No matter what spend the $12 and get a new solenoid for the new starter because ripping your starter out over and over is a pain

Oh yeah, if you're tester light doesn't light up, then work your way backwards through the whole start circuit. Fusible links, ignition switch, firewall connector and check for power at these spots. I always start in the middle of a circuit somewhere and work my way in the direction of results. No power here, then go back further.Etc.

If you can find an older HAynes book, the schematics are way better. The new ones are now simplified block diagrams and awful in comparison.