Freon, Freeze 12?

[Daves72'GMC]

Has Anyone Used A Freon Called Freeze 12 In Their Factory A/c,if So How Does It Work And Where Can Inget Some?

[Daves72'GMC]

Also another ? Do you have to buy any type of conversion kits or adaptors for our trucks to switch from R12 to Freeze 12?

[Longhorn Man]

freeze 12 is a maketing gimick.... it stems from the roumors that DuPont started when the industry went to R134A. DuPont owned the R12 industry, and they created Freeze 12, an evironmentally safe substitute for R12....and it is made out of 95% R134A

[bagged74]

gimmick or not, it does work and pretty well actually. It does not require any kind of conversion.
But I have also put 134 in an R12 system before without any problems. So maybe I'm

[Longhorn Man]

that's my point. we dump 134a into R12 cars all the time at work, never a problem.
We just don't warranty it.

[71SWBChevy]

Originally Posted by Longhorn Man

that's my point. we dump 134a into R12 cars all the time at work, never a problem.
We just don't warranty it.

Pardon my asking but if there is no problem with mixing them why don't you guys warranty it?

[WRMZ71]

Originally Posted by 71SWBChevy

Pardon my asking but if there is no problem with mixing them why don't you guys warranty it?

Because they're not supposed to. From the MACS classes I sat through R12 & R134A are not supposed to mix. Supposed to cause subpar performance and possible overheating.

[Longhorn Man]

possable overheating... and plus, anything that comes through our shop is a daily wor truc, and anything that has an R12 compressor would be what... 15 years old? So odds are, the compressor is on it's last leg.
That's how it was explained to me anyways.

[4x4Poet]

AFAIK, it's the different lubricant oils used that raises compatibility concerns when converting from R12 to R134a. R134a used esther oil. R12 uses another. Can't think of it at the moment. One oil will contaminate the other and either not lubricate properly, cause poor cooling, or some other bad thing.

Converting from R12 to R134 generally entails cleaning out the old system somehow. I guess there's some fudge factor there. Best would be to dismantle the system, flush the evap, condensor, POA/orifice/TCP, and hoses, and clean out the compressor (dismantle?) or replace it. New dryer, in any case. I'm sure I left something out. Perhaps some types of hose connections can't seal against R134a with its smaller molecules that are smaller than R12 molecules.

[72armyswbtruck]

Man, I know that this is kinda off topic but how much should I expect to pay to have my A/C system hooked up and recharged. I currently have all the parts just haven't got it all hooked up yet. Any takers?

[Longhorn Man]

if you plan on going with R12, you'll want to cry when you pay the bill.

[Werewolf]

I know this isn't the proper way of doing things, and I most certainly won't *recommend* it, but I've converted many of my cars from 12 to 134a without cleaning out the system or doing anything special other than attaching the 134 conversion connectors and making sure the system was depressurized. I just charged my Caprice today after replacing the AC compressor which was slowly dying due to 400k worth of use. I've never had any problems with my half-baked conversion process. I think these systems are a lot tougher than most people give them credit for.

[70c10]

I've done the same thing on older cars as werewolf with no problems.

[mrein3]

Originally Posted by 72armyswbtruck

Man, I know that this is kinda off topic but how much should I expect to pay to have my A/C system hooked up and recharged. I currently have all the parts just haven't got it all hooked up yet. Any takers?

Just do it your self. Use R134a.
If your system is open, and it sounds like yours is, flush it out.
Throw away your receiver/dryer and buy a new one for ~$30.
Adjust your POA. Click your way to:
http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi...AR_MSGDBTABLE=
I'd replace all o-rings at this point.
Fill the system with oil. I believe you need 10 or 11 ounces. The correct amount is in your service manual.
Then install your new receiver/dryer - you want to do this RIGHT before the next step.

Close up the system and pull a vacuum on it. This will boil out any moisture in the system.

At this point you can "dump" in your R134a that you bought a Wal*Mart for $4-$7 per can.

[72armyswbtruck]

Wow, thanks for the info, I am getting ready to do this myself this summer, I think that I will wait until my brother the A/c man gets out here from New York to help me with the system. Wish me luck...

[Ricks1971]

I tried freeze 12 in on of my peterbilts, it worked fine until I needed to add abit down the road. You have to pull the system down again as you can not just add abit more if you might have a small leak. Plus any shop won't pull your system down becouse it will contaminate there system. Since then I did the conversion on my trucks to 134. Simple easy and the cheapest way to go.

[cstanley]

i've never been able to get a good clear answer on this. can my original system be converted to 134 and get the same results? i understand flushing, cleaning, conversion, new drier, etc. what i don't understand is whether i'll need a larger/smaller evaporator or condenser or something? i've been told this, but i'm always afraid to try... i just don't know if it would be as efficient.

someone here on the board also directed me to Red Tek. it looked like a good product, but i don't want to be first on the block to try it. it was developed up in the great white north, and is supposed to directly replace r12 and is biodegradable, non-harmful, etc. and cheap. and it's supposed to cool better that r12 or 134. anyone else tried it?

plus i still have *plenty* of R12 for a rainy day.

no, it's not for sale.

[Werewolf]

In my experience, while leaving *all* the factory components in the car, yes, you can convert the system. It won't be quite *as* cool as an R-12 charge; I think that's just a problem with R-134a in general, though. I know that my wagon is what I consider to be cold enough with the 134, whereas with the 12, it would occasionally blow frost out of the vents. Yes, frost. So how cold do you want it? If you're down south the added punch of the 12 might be nice.

I also found out that you can get the air a bit colder out of the 134 conversion if you overpressurize the system. Then you'll eventually blow up your compressor. Oops!

[Willy Prost]

Ricks1971 is right on the money regarding any replacement refrigerent other than R134. If you do your own AC work (no exceptions!) then try the "alternative" refrigerents. Otherwise, it is either R12 or R134.

R134 has less cooling potential than R12. That does not mean it won't work. If after conversion to R134 you feel that the AC just isn't acceptable, then a larger , more efficient condensor in front of the radiator will help lower the temperature out the AC vents. This assumes that everything else is working properly.

[Oldtruckfanatic]

Hello...I have my ac certification and Everyone who replied on this topic is correct. There are a couple of things to be aware of though before putting 134 in an r12 system. the r12 uses a mineral oil based lubricant and the 134 uses esther based lubricant. They don't mix they instead make a sticky black mess that clogs orifice tubes. Also the 134 molecules are much smaller than r12 so if there is even the slightest porosity in a hose or a bad seal it will leak out pretty quickly which brings me to the hoses. The old r12 hoses were just a regular high pressure hose but some time in the late 80's or early 90's it became an industry standard to run what they call barrier hoses, If your hoses are barrier hoses they will say it on them. The barrier hoses have a layer in them that although I can't recall all of the details works to keep the 134 oil from deteriorating the hose and sweating out through the rubber. I saw a late 70's suburban sweat like this and it was basically refrigerant oil on the outside of the hoses that bubbled when the ac was runnning. that truck did eventually sieze the compressor but it was old and worn out anyway. I did however charge my wifes 91 explorer with 134 last year and it worked great. The 134 did leak out somewhere but I knew it would since I had to charge it because it was out of r12, It did hold vacuum but (If you have to charge it it has a leak somewhere) The only thing I noticed was that if I was on the freeway the condensor efficency was better due to the moving air to keep it cool so the system worked better, I will remedy this by adding a secondary electric fan wired to a relay that turns the fan on when the ac is turned on. A larger condensor would also work but I don't want to deal with it yet. Hope this helps.

[TugOwar]

Originally Posted by Oldtruckfanatic

Hello...I have my ac certification and Everyone who replied on this topic is correct. There are a couple of things to be aware of though before putting 134 in an r12 system. the r12 uses a mineral oil based lubricant and the 134 uses esther based lubricant. They don't mix they instead make a sticky black mess that clogs orifice tubes. Also the 134 molecules are much smaller than r12 so if there is even the slightest porosity in a hose or a bad seal it will leak out pretty quickly which brings me to the hoses. The old r12 hoses were just a regular high pressure hose but some time in the late 80's or early 90's it became an industry standard to run what they call barrier hoses, If your hoses are barrier hoses they will say it on them. The barrier hoses have a layer in them that although I can't recall all of the details works to keep the 134 oil from deteriorating the hose and sweating out through the rubber. I saw a late 70's suburban sweat like this and it was basically refrigerant oil on the outside of the hoses that bubbled when the ac was runnning. that truck did eventually sieze the compressor but it was old and worn out anyway. I did however charge my wifes 91 explorer with 134 last year and it worked great. The 134 did leak out somewhere but I knew it would since I had to charge it because it was out of r12, It did hold vacuum but (If you have to charge it it has a leak somewhere) The only thing I noticed was that if I was on the freeway the condensor efficency was better due to the moving air to keep it cool so the system worked better, I will remedy this by adding a secondary electric fan wired to a relay that turns the fan on when the ac is turned on. A larger condensor would also work but I don't want to deal with it yet. Hope this helps.

Good info, thanks very much!

[4x4Poet]

Originally Posted by Willy Prost

...R134 has less cooling potential than R12. That does not mean it won't work. If after conversion to R134 you feel that the AC just isn't acceptable, then a larger , more efficient condensor in front of the radiator will help lower the temperature out the AC vents....

When I explored buying a Vintage Air system, they said they use a larger condensor than oem to compensate for the poorer performance of R134a vs. R12. I've never bought an aftermarkets A/C system, though.

Originally Posted by Oldtruckfanatic

...There are a couple of things to be aware of though before putting 134 in an r12 system. the r12 uses a mineral oil based lubricant and the 134 uses esther based lubricant. They don't mix they instead make a sticky black mess that clogs orifice tubes....

Mineral oil base for R12. That's what I was trying to remember. I know the old evap & condensor can be flushed out with A/C cleaner solution, but can a compressor be flushed as well? If so, with or without disassembly?

...Also the 134 molecules are much smaller than r12 so if there is even the slightest porosity in a hose or a bad seal it will leak out pretty quickly which brings me to the hoses. The old r12 hoses were just a regular high pressure hose but some time in the late 80's or early 90's it became an industry standard to run what they call barrier hoses, If your hoses are barrier hoses they will say it on them. The barrier hoses have a layer in them that although I can't recall all of the details works to keep the 134 oil from deteriorating the hose and sweating out through the rubber. I saw a late 70's suburban sweat like this and it was basically refrigerant oil on the outside of the hoses that bubbled when the ac was runnning. that truck did eventually sieze the compressor but it was old and worn out anyway....

I think the *barrier* material is teflon. I had Classic Auto Air make me some 134a compatible hoses by sending them one of my truck's old hose sets so they could be sure to copy the fittings. This was on an uncommon IHC A/C system, though. A/C parts vendors probably know 67-72 GM truck A/C hose configurations pretty well since the hoses can still be bought new through auto parts stores and even some 67-72 vendors.

I wonder if replacement hoses for factory A/C systems come as *barrier* hoses as standard industry manufacturing process? As in, why carry two hose supplies when the superior one (barrier type) will do?

Great thread!

[clay68c10]

I used the freeze 12 for a while but it was a pain to recharge so I just went with 134 since we have the machines at work. It didn't seem to change my outlet temps at all. This was on my old car, I don't have the 68's a/c up and running yet.
I've always heard the 'mixed oil turns black' thing, but I've never seen it. The only thing I've ever seen turn a/c oil black is the ground up innards of a grenaded compressor, regardless of what refrigerant was in the system. I've converted plenty of 80's benzes at the dealership and all we do is pull down the system, change fittings, and replace the dryer. I've never seen one come back for anything weird.

[stope4]

Originally Posted by 72armyswbtruck

Man, I know that this is kinda off topic but how much should I expect to pay to have my A/C system hooked up and recharged. I currently have all the parts just haven't got it all hooked up yet. Any takers?

Just did it. You should hook everything up yourself. Freon - $35, Oil - $5.00. Evacuation and charge - whatever they charge in your area..


Warewolf
I just did the conversion and overcharging 134a does not make it blow cooler. It's just the opposite. If I had to do it all over I would charge to 60% capacity of R12, then add a little at a time until the vent temperatures went up slightly. Then I would bleed off and get temperature down to the max cooling from the previous reading. If I had done this to begin with, I would have saved about $30 on 134a.

By the way, my vent temperature goes to about 45 degress F with RPMs at 2000. Can't get this at idle.

[Oldtruckfanatic]

I have seen the black mess thing before...it's like wax. It didnt really cause me any problems on the stuff I have converted but I had to diagnose a high head pressure problem that turned out to be insufficient air moving across the condensor. I saw the wax in the orifice tube when I was going through the system after the conversion because it was the first R12 system we put 134 in. I probably should have been more specific about the mixing thing,The oils have different bases so they don't combine but the incompatibility comes from the 134 refrigerant. The reason they use an esther based lubricant is because it was the only thing they could find that would not react to the refrigerant. The manufacturers were aware of the problem and also know that the lubrication properties of the esther based lubricant were generally less than ideal. I read for hours on these subjects before my certification test but it has been a few years. I only had the one suburban show any wierd symptoms after the conversion. and the trouble was an old compressor to start with and non barrier type hoses we had to replace because the old ones were sweating the refrigerant out. Also stope4 is correct about the overcharge. we charge the system with a thermometer in a vent and add a little at a time until the temp starts to rise instead of go down, I usually only let it go 1 or 2 degrees so we don't back any out but it's not a bad idea to get the maximum performance.