R12 Substitute: A/C guys help?!

[cstanley]

it's that time of year again, and many posts are popping up about a/c systems, and this is just another one.
for some reason my search function isn't working, so i'm gonna risk flame and ask anyway.

can you guys check this out and tell me if it's a gimmick, if you've heard of it, and if any of it will work for converting my system? 1972 chevy 350/factory air. i don't want to sink a lot of $$ into my system, as i'll be doing an engine upgrade with all the goodies in the near future, but until then, i'd like to get rid of the sweat marks on my clothes...

something called enviro-safe ES-12A?

also this one: http://www.redtek.ca/

any canadian guys heard of it?

thanks everyone!

[Myself]

Most of the people I know, including shops, use Freeze 12 when not converting. I understand it works great.

[UncleT]

IMHO converting to R134a is cheap and easy. So far I've done it to a Ford, Chevy, Buick, and a Toyota, to revive the old R12 systems. Refrigerant and kits are available anywhere for @ $50. DIY with basic AC knowledge.
The low side adapter needs to be screwed on tight since everything is done here. It's on the return side from the evaporator in the dash. I use manifold vacuum to evacuate the system, a good 15 minutes or so. (cut the hose that comes with the kit and add a section of vacuum line then find an available port, clamp it back together to use it with oil & refrigerant). Pop the quick connector off the low side leaving some vacuum pressure in the system.
Hook up the can of esther oil, clear the air from the hose and charge the system with new oil. After that start charging the system with refrigerant until it stops short cycling. Check the sight glass on the filter/dryer. Should be getting cold fast and stay good unless you have a leak. Avoid getting air in the system by clearing the hose before connecting. Cheers

[70rs/ss]

Freeze 12 is as close to R12 as you can get, so for an old AC with good function Freeze 12 works great (you need a certified installer, so price can go up) but 134A is cheap and works. The only downside is that 134A needs to be under a lot of pressure to cool, so if you have an old r12 system, the tubes are bigger diameter so at idle and low speeds you will not pressurize the 134A enough to make it ice cold. Cruizing at highway speeds, 134A in an R12 system will get cold. For my money and old muscle car or pickup with a "GOOD" R12 system (meaning good or new components and no leaks) I'd spend the $$$ for R12 or the Freeze 12. If I had a beater that the AC was there maybe leaking etc, put 134A in it and run it till it needs more and then add more.

[Jwill41]

I agree with 70rs/ss on this one. I have been putting 134 in the r12 systems for a while now and no problems. I do several of my friends trucks once or twice a year. Works fine.

[cstanley]

great info everyone! on another hand, i have about 6 cans of r12, and i've asked my local shop to evacuate my system and check for leaks. they quoted about $60, but they won't touch my r12. does this sound about right? they really didn't even want to "just test" and evac my system. this is my dilemma. i could use up my last r12, but i am a bit environmentally conscious...

[dougs69c10]

if a shops caught with R12 and they dont have the permit to handle/use it they get a big fine

[ChevLoRay]

Freeze-12 is an excellent product. If you can get the shop to do the evac on the A/C system and then install fresh oil and the Freeze-12, you'll be happy...assuming you have no other problems.

I bought Freeze-12 at my local NAPA store and I don't have a license and was told I didn't need one.

R-12 is another animal. I have 5 cans in reserve, but no plans to use them. I'm going with Freeze-12.

[HuggerCST]

I've used freeze12 alot, and never had a problem. I have had problems when converting from R-12 to R134, (won't cool well at low speeds, compressors don't last long, etc.), so I would use the freeze12 if I were doing a conversion.

[Psycho71]

You should have to have a liscense to buy freeze 12. I am a certified HVAC tech. and I am asked for my liscense every time I buy it. They never understand my liscense and have to take my word that it is real because it was issued by the EPA, not ASE. I tell them "I took the real test, I can, and do, work on 40 ton chillers".
134 contains no CFC's and thus can be purchased by anyone. Anything containing CFC's can only be purchased, or used, by a cert. tech.. And if their cetified to handle freeze 12, they can use any refrigerant out there. The certification only limits the size of system their working on, not the type of refrigerant (except ammonia, which is an entirely different animal).

All that being said. Freeze 12 works good and will even drop in on top of r-12. 134A works good in systems designed for it. When converting a 12 system to 134a all you really need to do is put a pusher fan on the condensing coil to keep airflow at low, or no, speeds. This will lower it's pressure and thus lower the temp of the refrigerant, resulting in lower evap. coil temps. It's all relative. As stated before the pressures are much different than 12, thus requiring different size metering devices and such. And the oils are NOT compatible. DO NOT put 134a in a 12 system without flushing the oil completely, as per the instructions w/the conversion kit.


""""great info everyone! on another hand, i have about 6 cans of r12, and i've asked my local shop to evacuate my system and check for leaks. they quoted about $60, but they won't touch my r12. does this sound about right? they really didn't even want to "just test" and evac my system. this is my dilemma. i could use up my last r12, but i am a bit environmentally conscious...
__________________
only the curious have something to find"""""

I would have the system leak checked and vaccumed down. And install the r-12 you already have. It will not work in anything else you have, why not use it for what it was intended? The shop you are dealing with doesn't want to use YOUR refrigerant because there is no profit in it for THEM. Refrigerant is a highly marked up item wherever it is used.

And if the evironmental thing wasn't a joke, you should consider that a single volcanic erruption emits more chlorine molecules than humans can produce in 5yrs. And on top of that, the little ol 6 cans you have aren't even a drop in the bucket compared to what all the 3rd world countries are producing on a daily basis, or what evaporates from a backyard pool every summer. I'll quit ranting about the EPA now, and just say.... they are a government entity created by power hungry liberals and do no more for the environment than they have to, if they actually do anything at all! It's all about money, tyranny, and power. In that order. I do abide by their laws, as I must in my industry. But they are a joke.

Hope you get your A/C troubles figured out. Let us know what you do, and how it works. My A/C is coming up on the list and I'll need info from anyone that will give it. Since most of the parts are gone from mine, I'll probably do a 134a system myself.

Jay