caddy 500 swap with pics?

[ghetto_superman]

so ive got an old caddy that i could gut out and use, but dont know whether it would be worth it over building a small block or something.. i checked the FAQ's and found one swap.. but there was just a few illustrations, no pics, and my head doesnt work well with lots and lots of text.. so if anyone's got any links i can check out or something i would super duper appreciate it!

[sdkid]

Make a list of ?'s and shoot a pm to longhornman. He'll prolly chime in anyway. I believe he was the most recent to do this. He seems to be pretty happy with the results.

[RSRXION]

A 500 inch Caddy motor will BOIL the tires right off of your truck . We put one in a 4 door dually years ago and it was a hoot ! Longhorn man is the guru on this swap. Good luck, Dean

[ghetto_superman]

haha thats what i was hoping for (tires boiling!) ill watch this for a few days and read the text-heavy write up in the FAQ again and if longhorn doesnt say anything then ill shoot a PM at 'im.. thanks guys!

[Longhorn Man]

I'll reply on this when I get home from work... a cad 500 will make you grin and giggle every friggen day.
I'll never go back to a tonka toy small block.

[RicksTrucks]

Check with CADIAC, he likes caddys too.

[Longhorn Man]

here you go... this is through Geo-Cities... if it says too much bandwidth has been used, then come back and fiew it a couple hrs later. They are a real PITA, but, they are free.
http://www.geocities.com/caddyoneton/

[ghetto_superman]

MAN that is awesome!! its great that theres a way to do it that doesnt involve the million dollar kits!! i do have a few questions though.
1) my caddy is a 1971 eldorado.. does it have the correct oil pan and "associated parts"?
2) the 73-87 mounts from a chevy truck.. are they out of a BBC truck or a SBC?
3)why did you need to find a new exhaust manifold and if i need one where could i get one? (or maybe some headers)
4) any worthwhile BOP tranny will bolt to these it sounds like? (i want a TH400)
5) why is the engine as light as a SBC? because of the extra nickel content?
6) and last but not least.. where can i find an aluminum intake manifold that wont cost me a fortune.

sorry for the hoard of questions.. but this is VERY intriguing!!!

[ghetto_superman]

oh and also one more question for the moment..
7) what will i definitely want to keep from the eldorado (complete car) that i will need for the swap?

[watahyahknow]

it would be a good idea to keep the donorcar untill youre done with the swap i did it on an european car and i saved a lot of cash and trips to the wreckingyard
put some pics of the build on the net :

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...w/DSC00057.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...w/DSC00059.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...w/DSC00050.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...w/DSC00048.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...w/DSC00043.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...w/DSC00054.jpg

this car was filled to the brim with extra options had abs tc and injection so i had to replace the intire wireloom front to back the clips and little stuf i took of the donor made bout 150 dollar difference in the build compared to getting them out of the you pull it

[68GenIII]

Build a stroker. The Caddy motor while having some cubes only make what 200 hp? The torque was probably around 325-365? But Im sure it has to weigh 600+lbs. Im no expert here by any means and Im sure some others with more knowledge will chime in but Im thinking its probably not worth it?

[Longhorn Man]

68 gen... you are way way wrong.
We'll go with what he has...
71 eldorodo
if it is in fact a 500, it'll have 365 horse, and 535 ft pounds of torque.
This is all done on 87 octain and 8 to 1 compression.
As for weight, add an alluminum intake, and you are in small block weight catagory. (about 570 pounds) My truck sits HIGHER in front with the cad 500 rather than the Pontiac 350 it had in it before.
The cads have high nickle content. While yeah, I know a few 350's left the assembly plant like that, but not every single one. I've personally seen a 472 cracked open that had 100,000 miles on it, and there was still a faint cross hatch pattern on the cylinder walls, and not enough of a ridge to even catch your fingernail on.
For the cost that it'll take you to build up your little stroker small block, I could build a kick ass 500 that'll make you crap yourself when you launch it... assuming you can find tires that'll take it.
Heck, why not build a stroker... how about 529 cubes?
Another advantage that I haven't taken advantage of due to my truck being a one ton... you can install stupidly high freeway gears... Lloyd, a member of this board and also right here in Columbus, has a 67 (I think) with a 472, and 2.76 or so rear gears. We're talking freeway cruising at 2000 RPM... probably less. yet, with the unreal amount of torque, it still takes off like a cockroach on the kitchen counter when you turn on the light.
Like I said, I'll never go back to a small block.. not if I want power. Hell, I still get the same MPG with my 500 cubes as I did with my little 350..and I still have 4.10 gears!!! It's a win win.
Look into it, you'll be impressed.
Now, on to the real questions at hand ...

Originally Posted by ghetto_superman

a few questions...
1) my caddy is a 1971 eldorado.. does it have the correct oil pan and "associated parts"?
2) the 73-87 mounts from a chevy truck.. are they out of a BBC truck or a SBC?
3)why did you need to find a new exhaust manifold and if i need one where could i get one? (or maybe some headers)
4) any worthwhile BOP tranny will bolt to these it sounds like? (i want a TH400)
5) why is the engine as light as a SBC? because of the extra nickel content?
6) where can i find an intake manifold that wont cost me a fortune.
7) what will i definitely want to keep from the eldorado (complete car) that i will need for the swap?

...sorry for the hoard of questions.. but this is VERY intriguing!!!

1) If you can get me a pic, I'll tell you. Off the limited caddy cars that i have looked at, i will say yes. Mine has an eldorodo 425 pan on it, and it was exactly what I needed.
2) The engine towers... I know inlines and V8 trucks had them. While I am not sure, I'd bet a kick in the nuts they are the common ones. Also, these are off a 2 wheel drive, I know this.
3) If you were to look under the hood of the ledorodo, one of the manifolds exits up and away, not down and back. If you installed it as is, it would aim the pipe towards the hood hinge. it would actually aim it towards the master cylinder, but you get the picture. This was becouse the eldorodo had the tranny beside it instead of behind it. Headers is kinda spendy. You'd need to get big block headers for your truck, make sure they actually still fit, then cut off the flanges, get a caddy flange kit, and weld them up. With all this labor and expense, it would be foolish to use cheap headers, so now you are in it for 300 - 500 bucks... and if you've spent that much on one off headers, you may as well get them coated. For now, i simply have manifolds. They are fine fos stock and warmed over engines. The driver side manifold you'll need to replace the goofy lookin unit would come off of any rear wheel drive 472/500 cad. The 368/425 manifold would fit, but they have a restrictive dimple in them. You could nab what ever you find, and then get the better one later, or just good enough untill you do up some headers.
4) You'll want a 400 tranny. I have a TH350 in mine, and it is on borrowed time. I try to go easy on it, but honestly, I can't help it. I have to get into it at least once every day. Last time I pulled my pan there were black chunks of clutch material.
The cad 400 is set up to shift so soft you can't even feel it. That can be fixed, however, if you locate a TH400 in a trans am or fire bird, it'll need rebuilt from age and abuse, but it'll have one leg up on the cad unit from the get go. Something that is odd, the caddy TH400 has a tail shaft that is friggen looooong. I think it is like 12 inches or something. This is awsome if you have a LWB truck, you can do a one piece shaft with no problems at all. The Caddy version has a real goofy mount too. You'll wnat to look at that before buying one, you'll have to fab something up.
5) The engine is light.... simply becouse. I really don't know. It gets real funny when you toss a 425 on the scale. they removed a whole bunch of material on them, and they weigh in right at small block weight... STOCK. Yet, they are still tough as nails.
6) Edelbrock makes the only realisticly obtainable one that I am aware of. they run right at 250 bucks, which isn't too expensive, but sure isn't cheap. There's some others out there too, but they are top end deals, and I think they are like $500 and up. There were some factory aluminum intakes, but they have real small ports, and they are still low rise. The stock intake is such a low rise, the carb base is actually lower than the outer portion of the intake. Great for packing it all under the hood... but sucks for performance.
7) I recomend keeping the car untill the swap is done. If this is not doable, I say you'll want to grab;
Engine
Tranny (only to sell, the GMC motor home guys love that transaxle)
Wire harness
Carb
all accessories (kick off the A/C if you don't need it, it's in the way)
I'd recomend HEI from another car
Motor mounts
upper rad hose if in good shape
That's all I can think of off the top of my head. You'll need a starter off another car. Normal chevy NON staggared bolt style. I think I have 86 caprice down for aplication.
You'll also want a fuel pump with single inlet/outlet if your truck is a 70 or older. NAPA has one with 3/8 in and out, listed for a 1968 cad 472 ... P/N M4643. lower rad hose... I think the aplication was 90's F-150 with an inline... can't locate the P/N... it was the same P/N as a 68 charger with a 440 IIRC.
More may come to me later... may not.

[Longhorn Man]

Wow... that took almost 30 min!!!

[Longhorn Man]

Oh yeah, grab the fan and spacer. I ended up cutting 1/4 inch off the spacer after 6 months of the fan shaveing the fins on my new rad.
Here is the pan I am useing... 78-ish 425 from an Eldo.


Here is a must read thread too.... 9 pages worth, and a lot of little nothins and BS'in.. .but still, some VERY good info.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...ad.php?t=20020

[67chevy2wd]

That is gonna be sweet. A kid a college had an old rusty Lemans(spelling?) that he put a 455 in and built up a bit and that car was unreal. It was a major sleeper, there was only one car in a town of 10,000 people that could beat it, a camaro with NOS, not sure of the setup. The best part was this Lemans was a very low budget car.

[Longhorn Man]

Top 68-78 Eldo
Center 77-79 RWD 425
the last is a modified early eldo pan


I have the top one under my rig right now.
There MIGHT be enough room for the middle one the way my engine is mounted... but it'd be pretty dern close.

[ghetto_superman]

WOW!! ask and YE SHALL RECIEVE!! thats why even though im new i use this board for all its worth- ITS AWESOME!!!! im bookmarking so much stuff...
ok so to make sure i got it all straight---
my research and example car thats out in the garage is a '71 FWD conv....
the donor is mine, which is a '72 FWD coupe but is at the other end of the state..
they're both eldo's- the bodies look exactly the same (save for the roof of course) so im guessing that even if the one here is a 7.7, the oil pans will be the same since theyre not in different 'classes' like FWD, RWD, different years/ (body styles) and such..
so ill make it my mission to look at the oil pan in the garage and compare it to the pic of what i hope it is (the top one of those 3?) and then that will be the preliminary deciding factor on whether this will work!! then i just gotta get a hold of things like intake and exhaust manifolds, starter, mounts and detail stuff mostly.. crap im beside myself with excitement! its so "do-able"!!!

[GREASEMONKEY72]

can you use a th350 tranny or is the engine to much for it???? this swap is looking very inviting to me

-steven

[junkyardjohn]

BIG BLOCK CADDY MOTORS & BIG BLOCK FORD MOTORS ARE REALLY PLENTIFUL. AT LEAST OUT WEST THEY WERE. I COULD GO INTO ANY PICK N PULL & GET 5 OF EACH FOR LESS THAN $200 EACH ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. THEY MAKE A CHEAP SWAP IF LEFT AS IS , BUT TO DO ANY HIGH PERFORMANCE UPGRADES THEY ARE EVEN MORE SPENDY THAN A 454 WITH NO WHERES NEAR THE RESULTS. (EVEN A STOCK REBUILD)THINK ABOUT IT... IF THEY WERE LOW LOW BUCK POWERHOUSES, ALL THE DRAG RACERS WOULD BE USING THEM & THEY WOULD BE AS HARD TO FIND IN JUNKYARDS AS THE 454s. THEY ARE A LOW RPM MOTOR WITH ALOT OF TORQUE. JUST LOOK AT THE VALVE TRAIN IN ONE OF THESE. BELIEVE ME.. I'M NOT KNOCKING THEM.... THEY'RE JUST NOT THE LOW BUCK , HIGH PERFORMANCE UPGRADE THAT EVERYONE IS MAKING THEM OUT TO BE. JOHN

[watahyahknow]

to bad i dont have the hot rod here (im still moving house ) with the article in it bout the small budget car with the caddy engine they build for dragracin , to give it a bit more power they used the heads from another caddy engine to get the compression up and the with it the power .

from wat i understand from longhorn the engines are made from an tougher aloy that makes them verry resistent to wear and there plentyfull so it should be ok to find a low milage one dont think theres a need for stronger valvetrain cause the engine dont need to be reved at all , i think it's a case of bang for the buck and if it blows get another one from the pick and pull there plenty to go around

[junkyardjohn]

Originally Posted by watahyahknow

to bad i dont have the hot rod here (im still moving house ) with the article in it bout the small budget car with the caddy engine they build for dragracin , to give it a bit more power they used the heads from another caddy engine to get the compression up and the with it the power .

from wat i understand from longhorn the engines are made from an tougher aloy that makes them verry resistent to wear and there plentyfull so it should be ok to find a low milage one dont think theres a need for stronger valvetrain cause the engine dont need to be reved at all , i think it's a case of bang for the buck and if it blows get another one from the pick and pull there plenty to go around

THEY ARE A CHEAP STOCK SWAP BUT DRAG RACERS KINDA LIKE TO REV THEY'RE ENGINES JUST A WEE BIT. & I'D SURE LIKE TO SEE SOMEONE FIND A LOW MILAGE CADDY DONOR CAR. LIKE I SAID.. I'M NOT KNOCKING THEM. IT JUST COSTS WAY MORE TO BUILD ONE THAN A 454 & YOU GET POOR RESULTS. (COMPARED TO A 454 WITH THE SAME UPGRADES). I'D LIKE TO SEE SOME PROOF OR DOCUMENTATION THAT THEY ARE MADE OUT OF A DIFFERENT, BETTER, LONGER LASTING ALLOY. UNTIL THEN I'LL HAVE TO CALL BULLSH!T. MAYBE I'M TOTALLY WRONG & IF I'AM I WILL SURELY APOLOGIZE. I'M NOT AWARE OF A SINGLE DRAG RACER USING STOCK CADDY. ENGINES TO HAUL @SS DOWN THE 1320 AT 3200 RPMS. ANY DESCENT BIG BLOCK WILL GIVE YOU A SEAT OF THE PANTS THRILL, BUT I WOULD SURE LIKE TO SEE A DYNO SHEET ON ONE. A REAL DYNO & NOT SOME COMPUTER PROGRAM. (I ONCE BUILT A 2300 H.P. SMALL BLOCK ON A DESK TOP DYNO). THEY WERE MADE TO PUSH A 5500 LB CAR DOWN THE FREEWAY AT 75 MPH WITH LOW RPMS. ANDY HAS A 411 REAREND & THEY WERE MADE TO OPERATE WITH A 275 OR HIGHER GEAR. THAT WOULD SURELY MAKE IT SEEM LIKE A TORQUE MONSTER.THEY ARE GOOD LOW RPM MOTORS, JUST NOT HIPO MATERIAL. LOOK AT THE VALVE TRAIN & PRICE SOME AFTERMARKET HIGH PERFORMANCE PARTS FOR YOURSELF. EVERYTHING COSTS MORE FOR A CADILAC. I'D LIKE TO FIND A LOW MILAGE NORTHSTAR MOTOR CHEAP, BUT I'D ALSO LIKE TO SEE AN OPEN HUNTING SEASON ON UNICORNS. ;0 JOHN
(QUOTE)71 eldorodo
if it is in fact a 500, it'll have 365 horse, and 535 ft pounds of torque.(QUOTE)
MAYBE IT WAS BORN WITH 365 HORSES BUT HOW MANY DO YOU THINK IT HAS AFTER 125,000 MILES & 35 YEARS?? JOHN

[RSRXION]

John, I've got to side with Longhorn on this one. These engines are TORQUE MONSTERS ! While you probably won't ever see one on the circle track and the drag strips are dominated by small block Chevys and asian import tuners cars ( pardon me while I go wash my mouth out ) , there was a time when 472-500 inch Cadillacs ruled many small race tracks around the country. They are indeed expensive to build and performance parts are a little harder to come by BUT, then again there aren't near as many big blocks of any manufacture on the drag strips any more.

We dropped one of these monsters into my Dad's 85ish GMC crew cab dually a few years back. We worked the hell out of this truck pulling a 2 car trailer to and from auto auctions. It was born with the weak little GM diesel and when it puked its' collective guts out, the Cadillac fell in the hole. We used the existing engine mounts ( swapping sides ) , transmission and left the 4:10 gears etc... The 500 engine had 50K or so on it when we did the install and we put another 100K on it pulling around 10,000 to 15,000 pounds. The Caddy never offered any trouble except for water pump, fuel pump etc... The most fun came at stoplights when without a trailer , at a dead stop, full throttle launch this truck would absolutely butcher the tires for 40-60 feet. No hot braking or other tricks and using only one foot pressed firmly against the floor with the throttle pedal in between, this truck was a HOOT ! We sold it to a roundy round racer who continued to use it for years.

If you want the Caddy, PUT IT IN THERE !! The world has enough high revving small blocks and bumble bee imports ( cough, hack , SPIT !!! ) to go around. There just isn't anything like low end grunt to bring a smile to your face. And when it comes right down to it , I'll bet you could build a Caddy motor cheaper than you can create a 383 , 377 , 421 , 430 inch small block Chebby. Bigger is always better when it comes to inches.

JMHO , Dean

[JameslovesJammie]

ghetto_superman,

If you pm me your email address, I have an article from Car Craft in a .pdf file from a couple years ago I would be more than happy to email you. It does a Caddy buildup from a '76 eldorado and does dyno results with each upgrade they do.

[junkyardjohn]

I AGREE WITH EVERY THING YOU SAID. I NEVER COMPARED THEM TO A SMALL BLOCK OR AN IMPORT. (YUCK.. IT DOES LEAVE AN AWFUL TASTE IN YOUR MOUTH DOESN'T IT?. LIKE I KEEP SAYING A CADDY MOTOR IS A GREAT SWAP AS LONG AS YOU LEAVE IT IN THE STOCK FORM. (DO YOU EVER LEAVE A MOTOR STOCK??) A 454 IS CHEAPER TO BUILD & WILL HAVE MORE HP WITH THE SAME HIGH PERFORMANCE PARTS. CADDY MOTOR HIPO PARTS COST A TON & EVEN REBUILDING THEM IN STOCK FORM IS VERY EXPENSIVE. THIS IS NOT MY OPINION. CHECK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF. AFTER 125000 OR 150000 MILES ANY 35 YEAR OLD V-8 WILL LOSE UP TO 50% OF THE HORSE POWER THAT THEY WERE BORN WITH. I PERSONALLY BUILT A 454 THAT WOULD SMOKE THE HIDES FOR A CITY BLOCK IF THAT IS HOW YOU WANT TO MEASURE TORQUE, & NO IT WASN'T STOCK. NOBODY EVER UNDERESTIMATES THEIR TRUCKS HP OR GAS MILEAGE. THERE WAS A TIME IN THE 50s THAT OLDSMOBILE MOTORS WERE THE FASTEST THING AROUND, BUT THATS HISTORY & THIS IS 2006. JOHN

[Jayss109]

I look at it this way... Build a 350hp small block for around $3000, or get a 300hp cad500 for FREE (your price may vary) and spend that $3000 you saved and make it a 450hp cad 500 WITH 600+ lbft of torque, all with only spinning the engine under 5000rpm. We all no that RPMS are the real killer of ANY engine.

Different strokes, for different folks. Ive had both a SBC and a have a 500 cad now. I will NEVER put a small block in my truck again.

I agree that the aftermarket is small and is a little more expensive. Its a game of supply and demand. There are MILLIONS of sbc's in the world, and only a few thousands of cad500's. Of course big name manufactoring is going to make more products for sbc's!!

Anywho... I love my cad, and wouldnt trade it for 2-3 600hp small blocks.

There is no replacement for displacement!

Jason
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