Engine Suggestions Please

[PsRumors]

I am ready to order an engine for my '85 K20 Sub. The problem is I don't know what to get. I'd like to stay small block for installation simplicity.

I plan on using an auxillary trans cooler and oil cooler along with a good aluminum radiator and electric fan(s). A 2" lift with 33's will be the setup choice for suspension. It has 3.73 gears which may or may not get changed to 4.11s. The tranny is a 700r4.

I will be towing some, boat camper, etc. I don't want to hamper any towing abilities I want to enhance it.

How much power is enough (I know, never enough but I need to save some money)? Wasn't stock 160 hp? GM crates has a 350/290 that delivers over 300 pound feet of torque starting at about 1600 rpms. Will this be a good engine for a burb? I can get it for under $2000.

Will a 350 be enough or should I step to a 383 or even a 400? I have been cautioned on the 400 that they can be touchy on cooling. Is that true? A 383 is quite bit more than a 350, bout double.

This is the first Chevy I am doing, so I need some help.

Thanks guys

[BowTieOgre]

Why not see about getting a 5.3L Vortec/4L60E out of a late model GM truck?

[PsRumors]

I have thought about a newer engine but it gets expensive fast. If I was going to going new it would have to be at least the 6.0 and 4l80e to stay within the same ratings.

[watahyahknow]

personally i would go for a 383 in a towing vehicle these make about 450 ft pnd

[BowTieOgre]

Originally Posted by PsRumors

I have thought about a newer engine but it gets expensive fast. If I was going to going new it would have to be at least the 6.0 and 4l80e to stay within the same ratings.

Ive got an '03 Silverado with a 5.3/4L60E that I just hauled 5,000 pounds of Blazer and trailer at 65 on the interstate and I know HartRod is putting a 5.3 in his Suburban project. Im not saying its a towing dreadnaught, im just saying it works pretty good. Just a suggestion.

Oh, my buddy has the same truck I do but its a Z71 and he has put a chip in it, headers, cold air intake and exhaust and it IS a dreadnaught! That thing will get up and go and he uses it to haul around equipment for his underground utilities company.

[gmcman7202]

the 400 can have cooling issues. if it was overheated, i wouldnt use it. the heads need another cooling port. with mine, i added a engine oil cooler, 4 core aluminum radiator, the 400 is a pretty good engine torque wise. with mine, i cant keep the driveshafts on, i have to upgrade from the 1310 series.

[N2TRUX]

If your willing to spend a few extra dollars it's hard to beat the 330 HO with Iron Vortec Heads-# 12486041 That's a long block.

If you really want to step up a notch look at the FastBurn 385.
It'a 350 with 385HP and Aluminum Vortec Heads-# 12496769

Try Summit Racing for the best deal out there. Shop around and find the best internet deal. Call Summit and they will match or beat the price and ship it for free.

[Tom]

vortec 350/ 330hp is the best value GM has going, it and the goodwrench are the only crates I would consider wasting my money on

[gchemist]

350 Ram Jet Engine!!!
400 FT/LBS of torque!!

[N2TRUX]

Originally Posted by gchemist

350 Ram Jet Engine!!!
400 FT/LBS of torque!!

I like em, but then my opinion is rather biased...

[Billla]

If you're looking for something from a crate, then there are a few areas to be careful of. Most of the GMPP crate engines are not set up for truck use; they've got a cam for making HP up high and not torque down low. A 383 is by far the best bet for a SBC truck engine - 50+ more ft-lbs of torque, and it should not be "quite a bit more" expensive; the GMPP 383 has a forged crank and internals which is why it seems to be so expensive. A decent 383 should deliver 400+ ft-lbs through 4000 RPM and cost ~$500 - $750 more, max.

400's do have some unique quirks for the extra displacement. Realistically these are pretty scarce any more used, and the crate engines typically use new aftermarket blocks...so are quite expensive.

I'm not a big fan of crate engines, so I can't give you a bunch of pointers. I have had some good luck with shortblocks from Golen Engine Service (www.golenengineservice.com) and they can build you a decent cast 383 for a very nice price.

[watahyahknow]

Originally Posted by Billla

If you're looking for something from a crate, then there are a few areas to be careful of. Most of the GMPP crate engines are not set up for truck use; they've got a cam for making HP up high and not torque down low. A 383 is by far the best bet for a SBC truck engine - 50+ more ft-lbs of torque, and it should not be "quite a bit more" expensive; the GMPP 383 has a forged crank and internals which is why it seems to be so expensive. A decent 383 should deliver 400+ ft-lbs through 4000 RPM and cost ~$500 - $750 more, max.

400's do have some unique quirks for the extra displacement. Realistically these are pretty scarce any more used, and the crate engines typically use new aftermarket blocks...so are quite expensive.

I'm not a big fan of crate engines, so I can't give you a bunch of pointers. I have had some good luck with shortblocks from Golen Engine Service (www.golenengineservice.com) and they can build you a decent cast 383 for a very nice price.

huray they make a forced 383 shortblok for blower aplications ..... thanks for the link

[PsRumors]

I am getting impatient and tired of shopping and talking. GM has this ht383 that puts out 340 & 435. It is marketed as a truck engine. Thoughts? It is $4k.

[watahyahknow]

its a good engine , it has the vortec heads and the forced crank .

[Billla]

Originally Posted by PsRumors

I am getting impatient and tired of shopping and talking. GM has this ht383 that puts out 340 & 435. It is marketed as a truck engine. Thoughts? It is $4k.

IMHO the dyno results say everything - peak torque around 3000 RPM with a curve that starts low and doesn't go flat until 3000 RPM and peak HP at 5000 RPM. Wouldn't be my first choice in a truck by any means. The 435 is a bit better with a fairly flat torque curve, but the TQ peak is still at 4500 RPM or so. Any of these engines will work, you just may find they don't deliver what you want in terms of an increase in power.

[PsRumors]

Originally Posted by Billla

IMHO the dyno results say everything - peak torque around 3000 RPM with a curve that starts low and doesn't go flat until 3000 RPM and peak HP at 5000 RPM. Wouldn't be my first choice in a truck by any means. The 435 is a bit better with a fairly flat torque curve, but the TQ peak is still at 4500 RPM or so. Any of these engines will work, you just may find they don't deliver what you want in terms of an increase in power.

Can you get power low on a 350 or 383? Everything I look at seems to make power own up. Will a small block do it?

This one is marketed as a truck engine. The statements says it makes over 400 lbft of tq at 2500 (though the dyno says different).

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH. I am going nuts.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by PsRumors

Can you get power low on a 350 or 383? Everything I look at seems to make power own up. Will a small block do it?

This one is marketed as a truck engine. The statements says it makes over 400 lbft of tq at 2500 (though the dyno says different).

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH. I am going nuts.

Hey, it's just a learning process - relax and enjoy

ABSOLUTELY an SBC can make power down low, especially a 383. It's really a function of the cam more than anything else, although the port size of the heads, intake and exhaust are certainly factors. Again, I think you'd do fine with one of the stock crate engines with a cam change, or you could work with someone like Chad Golen to build a crate engine that's perfect for your truck.

I can't really reconcile the dyno data vs. the marketing statements - that's between you and GM :-D

[PsRumors]

I am working with a machine shop on pricing now. Here is what we are looking at.

383 using roller lifers and one piece rear main seal block
Cast Nodular Crankshaft
5140 Forged Rods
Speed-Pro Hyper Coated Pistons
Sealed Power Moly Rings
King Bearings
8" Balancer
New Flex Plate
Melling HV Oil Pump

They will be building the short block. I will be using a dish piston trying to achive 8.75:1 compression ratio with 72cc heads so I can run cheap gas.

Once the short block is settled heads and cam will come next.

[Billla]

Originally Posted by PsRumors

I am working with a machine shop on pricing now. Here is what we are looking at.

383 using roller lifers and one piece rear main seal block
Cast Nodular Crankshaft
5140 Forged Rods
Speed-Pro Hyper Coated Pistons
Sealed Power Moly Rings
King Bearings
8" Balancer
New Flex Plate
Melling HV Oil Pump

They will be building the short block. I will be using a dish piston trying to achive 8.75:1 compression ratio with 72cc heads so I can run cheap gas.

Once the short block is settled heads and cam will come next.

I'm glad you found an approach that works for you :-D I do have a few comments (as always) and I'm sure some other folks will weigh in.

• Roller lifters seem like major overkill for the HP level you're looking at. They're great and allow a more agressive cam profile, but the expense seems out of proportion since you're looking at a < 1 HP/CID build level.
• Cast crank and HT pistons are fine. The crank should be a brand-name piece from Scat or Eagle; I've heard real horror stories about some of the budget 383 cranks. Generally, you're better off with a full rotating ass'y from one of these guys if you're buying crank, rod and pistons since they're matched and balanced. Eagle sells complete kits for less than a grand...too cheap to steal
• Clevite 77 bearings, always on a street engine IMHO. I'm not familiar with King, so someone else can weigh in here...but the Clevite bearings are generally accepted to be the best street bearings for their high embeddability.
• I'm going to kick off a huge debate, but HV (high-volume) oil pumps are not only not needed on a street engine but an active detriment for an SBC. This has been debated for a long time but I think the generally accepted perpspective recently is that high pressure beats high volume for the SBC since the clearances are relatively tight.

I wouldn't wait to pick the heads and cam, since they directly affect piston choice. Are you SURE you can get the heads you're looking for in 72cc? It would suck to get a short block together only to find the heads aren't available in that chamber size - better to have 'em in hand and pick pistons to match. The cam choice as well will influence all this...remember that you're trying to achieve a good balance that gives you what you want...and the cam - more than anything else other than budget - determines the other choices (CR, port size, etc.)

I would also solicit feedback here, but you should be able to go 9.5:1 or so and still run regular gas with 32-36 degrees of total timing advance. Not a bit over, but I would at least shoot for 9:1.

Finally, I'd suggest getting headers installed now on the current engine so they're ready to go when you're ready to drop.

I can shut up at any point here if I'm going off the deep end

[PsRumors]

Thanks for all the info Bill. Go ahead and pick this apart. This block with this rotating assembly. This will be on the budget end but I am on a budget. They will do this assembled for $1700, is close enough to pick up and will be ready in a week. I can put the remaining parts together. If I wasn't afraid of screwing something up I'd buy the block and an Eagle assembly and put it together myself.

Thanks again for the input,

Ron

[Billla]

Originally Posted by PsRumors

Thanks for all the info Bill. Go ahead and pick this apart. This block with this rotating assembly. This will be on the budget end but I am on a budget. They will do this assembled for $1700, is close enough to pick up and will be ready in a week. I can put the remaining parts together. If I wasn't afraid of screwing something up I'd buy the block and an Eagle assembly and put it together myself.

Thanks again for the input,

Ron

I take it you're buying this from White Performance and you're not working with a different builder that's buying this stuff from eBay

A couple of thoughts:

• You're clear that this is an LT1/LT4 (GEN II) and not a GEN I block, correct? I don't see a problem, but that's where the roller cam is coming in. Be sure as you're looking at parts you're looking at LT1 stuff; MOST things are the same, but some are definitely different! One plus is that LT1 iron heads are in fairly good, cheap supply and the reverse cooling means 10:1 is perfectly streetable on regular gas. Vortecs are a cheaper option (and outstanding!) but the CR is limited to 9.2 - 9.5 max.
• You absolutely must (there's strong words have the cam before you let them build the short block. DEFINITELY need to check the rotating ass'y-to-cam clearance during mock-up; it should take them 15 minutes and IMHO this is a must-do if you're walking out the door with the shortblock. They note the rotating ass'y has rods clearanced for the cam, but go on to say you're responsible for checking clearance. I suggest having the heads, too - I haven't looked but
• Note that the ass'y is externally balanced - not my first choice
• When they say "Procomp", I think they're talking about the Scat Pro Comp 9000 series. That's a decent crank, but I would be sure on the brand.
• I have to admit I don't understand how they can bore and hone the block unless they already have pistons selected, since this is done to match the pistons.
• They note the deck height as being 9.015; stock deck is 9.025, so they've cut ten thousandths.

Overall, I like shops that can spell but this looks like an OK deal for $1700 and some of my comments above are picking nits . I see some touches like chamfers on the head bolt holes that give a fair level of comfort that they're a good shop. My worry is that they're using individual components and then balancing them...I have to wonder what the price would be if the ass'y came to them from a single vendor and balanced.

Happy to discuss real-time if you'd like - PM and I'll give you my cell.

[PsRumors]

Well Bill, thanks for all the information. I ended up buying 2, yes 2 454's. They are both from '70s Trucks. One is a long block with a fresh stock rebuild and all tin. The second is complete with brackets, exhaust manifolds and all accessories. Still in the truck ('79 1 ton) and seems to run decent. No smoke or funny noises. Gave $3k for the set.

Let the fun begin!

[watahyahknow]

oh boy , hope you have a big tank under that truck you going to need it .
nice deal though , it will give you some powah

[PsRumors]

I am hoping that with the right cam and a MPFI system (Accel or Edelbrock) it won't be too bad. But we shall see.