Ethanol and Flex Fuels

[timcos]

Hi Gang.

What are your experiences using Flex Fuels?

Such as

E10 - 10% ethanol and 90% unleaded gasoline

E10 is approved for use in any make or model of vehicle sold in the U.S. Many automakers recommend its use because of its high-performance, clean-burning characteristics. In 2004, about one-third of America's gasoline was blended with ethanol, most in this 10% variety.

E85 - 85% ethanol and 15% unleaded gasoline

E85 is an alternative fuel for use in Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFVs). A current estimate puts the FFV population in the US at 4 million, and the figure is expected to increase steadily.

This is of course off the e85.com website.

What would we do to our engines to use the E85?

Tmi

[shifty]

I'm not trying to derail you here, or even bring the thread to an end, but I would highly encourage you to read the Wiki page on E85/Ethanol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

There is a TON of info there, including info on conversion kits. Two things of interest: prolonged exposure to high concentrations of ethanol may corrode metal and rubber parts in older engines (pre-1988) designed primarily for gasoline AND the nature of ethanol with regard to water, it will corrode fuel lines and tanks depending on what they are made out of. These are the two big considerations with regard to the kits.

I would use it, but I think my engine is like ... 2 years too early

[timcos]

I did read that...I am asking for experiences of the forum members...possibly there are none.

Facts I have...experience I do not...there fore I do not have knowledge.

[67ChevyRedneck]

As of yet, there is no way to retrofit a carburated engine with E-85, because there is currently no carburators that can handle it. A couple issues back in classic trucks (or was is custom classic trucks?) they did a spot on E85. supposedly Edelbrock was working on a carburator that could handle E85, the only drawback (as opposed to a FFV) once the carb is on the motor, it can ONLY run E85, due to the significantly different size jets. There will be no switching back and forth between fuels.

As far as installing, say, a GM 5.3L FF engine in one of our trucks.. no different than any other 5.3L install. You would just need stainless steel fuel lines (no rubber) and a stainless steel gas tank.

That's information I've gathered from readings. It may not be 100% correct, but I try

[Mudder]

I have been using the ethanol fuel mixture for probably 20 years. I have never had a problem with it or any kind of moisture problems. I will say your gas mileage will drop slightly. Most of my vehicles have ran better using it with the better octane rating.

[shifty]

I read the same article that Jesse is talking about above, it was 3-4 issues ago in one of the two classic truck mags.

Sorry you already read that, I just wanted to hand over something that had a ton of info.

I want to use it, but in the southeast, unless you live in South Carolina like Jesse, there is literally no public station to buy the stuff at. I literally WANT to use it and cannot. The government isn't providing any incentive for stations to convert - how the hell are we supposed to focus on "alternative fuel development, research and use" if the government doesn't offer anyone any incentive to drop the cash on putting new tanks and pumps at their station?

I haven't checkd back at the e85.com website to look for filling stations in my area. I think the DoD building a few blocks away from me has pumps, but I'm not allowed to use them.

[brak]

over the last 4 years, while i was working at the federal building here in minneapolis, I spent alot of time around two guys from the E85 resource board as they were working with the GSA motor pool (all Government vehicles here run E85) doing research.

Basically what i learned was, any vehicle that runs on unleaded, can run E85, but you need a stainless steel gas tank, and teflon lined fuel lines, as the alcohol is corrosive, and will cause a standard tank and hard lines to rust, and the soft lines to become brittle.

Nothing else needs to be modified, unless you have a newer computer controlled car. If so, you will have to swap the knock sensor, otherwise the computer thinks the car is running too lean, and will throw codes.

I was thinking about upgrading my camaro three years ago when E85 cost $0.55 a gallon, but the prices have risen enough that it's not worth the cost of having a custom tank fabbed up.

I will say, If E85 is plentiful in your area, and you have the above mentioned tank and lines, use it. Driving the GOV's, there was a noticeable difference between driving on E85, and driving on unleaded when in an area with no E85 availiable. The E85 is definately more peppy, but racers have been running alcohol for years.

On a side note....
Those guys told me that the only reason they add the unleaded (85% alcohol, 15% unleded hence the name E85) is so people won't drink it

[agronomya]

There are custom carb companies that make carbs for use with ethanol. There have been a couple of engine buildups for ethanol in Car Craft and I know they used a custom carb from a certain company. I checked their website and there were no links to those stories but I know I've got them at home in the library and I'll take a look this evening and tell you what I've found.

AA

[brak]

Originally Posted by agronomya

There are custom carb companies that make carbs for use with ethanol. There have been a couple of engine buildups for ethanol in Car Craft and I know they used a custom carb from a certain company. I checked their website and there were no links to those stories but I know I've got them at home in the library and I'll take a look this evening and tell you what I've found.

AA

According to the E85 people, a custom carb is not necessary, as most carbs are made from aluminum and will not rust, and the corrosiveness of the alcohol is the only difference.

all you need to do is adjust the carb as you normally would.

[67ChevyRedneck]

Originally Posted by shifty

I read the same article that Craig is talking about above, it was 3-4 issues ago in one of the two classic truck mags.

Sorry you already read that, I just wanted to hand over something that had a ton of info.

I want to use it, but in the southeast, unless you live in South Carolina like Craig, there is literally no public station to buy the stuff at. I literally WANT to use it and cannot. The government isn't providing any incentive for stations to convert - how the hell are we supposed to focus on "alternative fuel development, research and use" if the government doesn't offer anyone any incentive to drop the cash on putting new tanks and pumps at their station?

I haven't checkd back at the e85.com website to look for filling stations in my area. I think the DoD building a few blocks away from me has pumps, but I'm not allowed to use them.

It's Jesse, there sir, not Craig (I've sent you like 4 PM's over the past 2 days signed "Jesse.")

Jason is correct though, in the area I live in Greenville there are two E85 stations that I know of for sure. One is 1/4 mile from where I work, a second is 3 miles from my home, ok apartment, but I pretend it's home

[jimmydean]

My next engine will be E85. A few months ago they broke ground at the E85 plant in Pendelton, OR. It is designed to be the largest E85 plant on the west coast.

I am looking to either convert a newer motor, or ideally buy a used/crate motor that is E85 complaint. My current engine gets 15 mpg and that sucks. I only drive about 100 miles a week, but it still sucks.

[brak]

Originally Posted by shifty

I want to use it, but in the southeast, unless you live in South Carolina like Craig, there is literally no public station to buy the stuff at. I literally WANT to use it and cannot. The government isn't providing any incentive for stations to convert - how the hell are we supposed to focus on "alternative fuel development, research and use" if the government doesn't offer anyone any incentive to drop the cash on putting new tanks and pumps at their station?

It's not an issue of the government not providing cash incentives, or the government suppressing the blend, the government has completely embraced E85, and uses it in all it's vehicles.

E85 is not available on a wide scale primarily because of production/shipment issues. It's not a "Viable" source of energy at this point, and i doubt it ever will be. Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan.

E85 cannot be pumped through a pipeline due to the fact that the alcohol is succeptable to heat, and breaks down too easily, therefore it has to be shipped via truck, which becomes costly, and still, said trucks can only travel short distances (few hundred miles) because of the same issues with the pipeline idea.

Even if it could be tranported cheaply, Production on a large scale requires more crop, which takes away land from other crops currently being grown, which would cause significantly higher prices for food.

Basically Unless you live in an area where there is a E85 production plant, you won't see it anytime soon.

[shifty]

Originally Posted by 67ChevyRedneck

It's Jesse, there sir, not Craig (I've sent you like 4 PM's over the past 2 days signed "Jesse.")

Sorry Jesse, my brain is up my ass today. I replied to those PM's with "Jesse" also I dunno what the hell I was thinking, but I saw your quote from Craig Morgan in your signature and ... you know the rest . I only use people's names if they put them in their sig....but ... heh, you know

[Boog]

I've been reading this thread and see there is some info omitted. I also have read numerous articles on the E85 fuel. Here is some of what I read in those articles.
E85 has an octane rating of 105 and requires a richer fuel mixture and timing adjustment to run properly.
To get the most out of E85 fuel the engine needs to have a much higher compression ratio.
Once the ratio has been raised and the carb jetted richer it won't run right on regular gas without detuning it.
Flexfuel equipped vehicles can run either reg gas or E85 as the computer senses and adjusts fuel/air mixture and timing to compensate automatically.
E85 produces less mile per gallon than reg gas.
The gov is subsidizing 50 cnts per gallon to help get it going.
At the time of the articles only 15 states did not already have E85 available.
At the time of the articles Calif only had 1 site in the whole state.
E85 can be made from much more than just corn such as forest waste, food waste, etc. The beer brewers waste can be used and that amounts to millions of gallons poured down the drain every year.
Anything that can be firmented can produce alcohol.
I am told some South American countries have been on alcohol based fuels for almost 30 yrs.
What I like about the prospect of someday converting to 85 is it is good for the environment in several ways and nothing has to be imported from the other side of the world and more of our own crude oil stays put.

[mrein3]

Before you go retrofitting anything consider this:
I know numerous people who have flex fuel cars. They get WAY less miles per gallon with the corn juice. The mileage is so bad that it is cheaper to fill up with regular unleaded.

You need to figure out your miles per DOLLAR. With E85 it is lower than with the stuff they sell at pumps marked "regular unleaded".

Here in MN, "regular unleaded" has ethanol in it too. It is approximately 10% ethanol. I burn this in all my modern, daily drivers. However anything I care about I fill at the specially marked premium unleaded pumps.

Here in MN you can get real unleaded gas if you are putting it in a boat, lawn mower, snowmobile, or collector car. All of the above I refuse to put ethanol in. I had a 1996 Johnson 150 hp outboard. Twice in the time I owned it I put gas in with ethanol. Both times I had to rebuild a carb. (There are six on that outboard). My '02 Evinrude gets only ethanol free.

Buyer beware. I get lots of free lawn mowers, etc. because the previous owner filled it with 10% ethanol. They leave that crap in the carb over the off season (summer for snowblowers, winter for lawn mowers) then can't get it restartd. It creates a funny looking "rust gel" in the carb bowl that eventually fouls up the needle and seat. I wish I had a nickle for every lawnmower carb I fixed.

[FarmTruk]

GOT CORN ?

[agronomya]

Originally Posted by brak

According to the E85 people, a custom carb is not necessary, as most carbs are made from aluminum and will not rust, and the corrosiveness of the alcohol is the only difference.

all you need to do is adjust the carb as you normally would.

Your right brak. They (Car Craft) ordered a custom carb set up for methanol since ethanol has a high octane to and they figured a methanol set up would be similar.

AA

[71cheyennezz4]

ive had nothing but $#@! experience with ethanol related products, i was drivin my truck back from colorado and i had to hit a gas station that just had 91 octane, the catch was it had 10% ethanol, made my truck run like complete trash, it would cruise down the highway alright but it wouldnt idle and it cut out alot, that was also due to having my demon carb set for the gas i usually run but i didnt like what the ethanol was doing.

i also had a 2000 chevy silverado with a 5.3L in it, i was tryin to figure out what was up when i was sittin at a stoplight and suddenly the engine would drop a few hundred r's and then come back up, it was almost like the a/c was on but i turned everything off and it still did it, i switched over to regular 92 octane with no ethanol and it solved the problem.....just my 2 cents

Drew

[71cheyennezz4]

fueleconomy.gov if you go there and look your vehicle up youll find something interesting, it will give you a chart of estimated annual spending with different kinds of fuels, its actually more expensive to use e85 for a year than it is to use regular U or super U because with E85 you pay less and get alot worse gas mileage therefore you fill up more, with regular you pay more but fill up less i did a chart on a 2000 chevy truck with a 5.3 and regular gas was $2091 and E85 was $2387, not to mention when E85 starts to get more popular the price will go up.... again my 2 cents

Drew

[71cheyennezz4]

This is for a 2007 k1500 silverado with 5.3L Flex Fuel
Note: this is with E85 not E10

$2434 Ethanol
$1967 Reg


Cost to Drive 25 Miles

$4.06 Ethanol

$3.28 Reg

Fuel to Drive 25 Miles

1.92 gal Ethanol

1.47 gal Reg

Cost of a Fill-up

$49.37-$64.57 Ethanol

$52.18-$68.24 Reg

Miles on a Tank

304-398 miles Ethanol

398-520 miles Reg

Tank Size

26.0-34.0 gal

26.0-34.0 gal

Annual Fuel Cost*

$2434 Ethanol

$1967 Reg

[mrein3]

Originally Posted by 71cheyennezz4

$2434 Ethanol
$1967 Reg

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about in my post above. Figure out YOUR miles per DOLLAR. It is ALWAYS less efficient to use E85.

That being said my next car will be a flex fuel vehicle. As the politics around E85 change I want to be prepared for when the government increases the subsidies on ethanol production in case that equasion flips around.

The problem with ethanol is that there is less energy in one unit of ethanol compared to one unit of petrolium based fuel. You can travel farther on one gallon of gas than one gallon of ethanol because there are more BTUs of energy in a molecule of real gas.

In today's world you would be throwing money down the drain to convert your truck to run on E85. Once you upgrade all your fuel system components and adjust your timing, you'll be getting worse mileage. Bad enough to not justify the lower price of E85.

[brak]

Exactly.

As i stated in one of my earlier posts, 2 - 3 years ago there was about a dollar difference (E-85 @ $0.55 gal), but now The difference is so slim, that I would end up burning more gas just to drive out of my way to get to a station with e85, than i would to just fill up wherever i happen to be.

[timcos]

Great info...thanks guys.

[FarmTruk]

Originally Posted by 71cheyennezz4

Annual Fuel Cost*

$2434 Ethanol

$1967 Reg

Well, the policy behind flex-fuels obviously is not cheaper fuel, but rather eliminating dependance on foreign oil.

[67ChevyRedneck]

Originally Posted by FarmTruk

Well, the policy behind flex-fuels obviously is not cheaper fuel, but rather eliminating dependance on foreign oil.

I'd agree. I wish my Silverado was a FF truck. I wish I would have known more when I bought it, I'd have looked for one that was a FFV. I'd be willing to pay a few hundred more a year to keep the money HERE! Plus, we NEED this fuel to become strong. Someday oil will be gone, or so damn expensive it would make driving a 67 chevy crazy! But if it could be converted to an ethanol truck with some new lines and tank, all of us in the classic car hobby can enjoy our hobby for generations to come.



Also, according to GM, it will take several tanks full of E85 for the computer to relearn the calibration curve to get the optimal fuel economy.