Belt squeal??? - The 1947 - Present Chevrolet & GMC Truck Message Board Network

HotRod929 · 09-04-2002, 10:05 AM

I have a bad belt squeal in my truck when I floor it some times. Its really annoying. I think its the power stearing pump belt and my thought was that when I flor it and the RPM go way up the pump cant spin at that high a speed so the belt slips. This was just one of my crazy ideas i thought of. I have no evidence to back this up. If anyone knows what the problem is or how to fix it that would be great. Oh and the belts are pritty new. I was thinking of converting to one serpentine belt but thats later on down the road. THanks guys.

HotRod

HotRod929 · 09-04-2002, 12:11 PM

Anyone?????

Blazer1970 · 09-04-2002, 12:39 PM

Mine does it too, but I am 99% sure it is the slipping at the water pump pulley. Because of the Corvette water pump (larger pilot) I have on there, I had to go with a fan clutch that doesn't let the fan slip nearly as quick as the stock one. That combines with the fact that there is hardly any belt engagement with that pulley with the stock accessory bracket set-up in these trucks. I have to swap back to a normal water pump, and go back to the stock fan clutch.

Fred T · 09-04-2002, 12:55 PM

To find out if it is a belt squealing, spray a shot of WD-40 or belt dressing on the v portion of the belt, best if you can do it with the engine running. If you use WD-40, the next step is to apply some belt dressing. I would try this one belt at a time until I found the offending belt. How's the pulley alignment?

HotRod929 · 09-04-2002, 01:17 PM

The pullys look pritty aligned to me.

HotRod929 · 09-04-2002, 02:25 PM

So just spray some WD-40 on the belts and the should stop squealing? Is that what you are saying Fred T?

HotRod

woodrow59 · 09-04-2002, 03:51 PM

Had the same problem ,,,, mine was the alternator out of line. Have an '85 305 with '68 exhaust manifolds so things didn't match up just right. Had to bend the bracket that attaches to the manifold and magicly the squel went away.

**COBALT** · 09-04-2002, 04:21 PM

No, he's not saying WD-40 will stop the belt from slipping it will just stop it from squealing as a test to find out which belt is slipping. You should probably get someone to help you. Shoot the V with some WD-40 while someone's reving the engine. See if the squeal goes away. If it does then the belt you just sprayed is the problem.

Make sure they're as tight as they should be first of all. There's a deflection-per-foot figure that determines if the belt is tight enough (1/2" deflection per foot? 3/4"?--can't remember). I always do it by feel.

Another thing you can do is use a bar of soap. While the engine is running allow a bar of soap to rub against the V part of the belt until the entire belt has been dressed. That'll stop slippage as well.

HotRod929 · 09-04-2002, 05:51 PM

Well so far i think its the powerstearing belt. Its pritty tight. Now what do I do?

HotRod

*Zkast* · 09-04-2002, 08:08 PM

Powersteering typically wont have much freewheeling resistance. Only when pressure is demanded, then it starts to drag.

"Most" of the time you'll find a waterpump pulley causing the noise, due to a seized fan clutch or loose belt. Assuming you have a belt driven fan? it can cause a massive load at higher rpms making the belt slip(squeal)

If you arent positive on the belt tension you can try removing one belt at a time, run it and find the one... but thats alot of work.
I'm not ruling out a P/S pump problem but the more common is the waterpump/alternator belt.

The WD-40 is a good tip for finding the belt noise, its not meant for a fix... just a means of finding out which one. Belt dressing is a mess after its been on a little while. Clean belts and pulleys dont make noise... find out WHY its making noise.

Good luck with it.

HotRod929 · 09-04-2002, 08:16 PM

Well I tried the WD-40 thing and it got me no where. I sprayed it on the 1st belt (PS) while it was running and reved the engine. Squeal. Sprayed it on the alternator and waterpump belt. Same thing squeal. I noticed that maybe my PS pully was wobeling a little. It might have been my mind playing tricks on me. So im stuck again.

How do I test if my fan clutch is stuck?

HotRod

*Zkast* · 09-04-2002, 08:38 PM

Warm the engine then turn it off. You should be able to spin the fan NO MORE than 1.5 revolutions. If it turns more than that its bad. If you cant turn it at all, its bad.

In your case, I would remove the outside belt then rev the engine. If the noise is still there remove the other belt. This will let you know if there is a problem with a belt driven componant.

Bad belts will do this and drive you crazy lol. The belt looks good but the cords have seperated which gives no tension. You can adjust it all day long and it will just act as a rubber band.

Try popping the belts off and give that a shot.

HotRod929 · 09-04-2002, 08:50 PM

Well i know how to get the alternator belt off but how in the world do you get the Power Stearing belt off? Do you have to take off the PS pully? Is it hard?

HotRod

*Zkast* · 09-04-2002, 08:56 PM

Try taking the alternator belt off first. I'm willing to bet you find your problem there.

*Gee_Emm* · 09-05-2002, 12:16 AM

I had this problem too and it drove me nuts!!!!!!! I tried everything, I thought it might be the bearings, I did the WD40 thing, i tried playing with the aligment of the accesories, finally one day I decided I will put on the spare belt I had in my truck. I havent heard a peep since the day I changed it.

HotRod929 · 09-05-2002, 12:21 AM

Which belt did you replace? The PS belt or the water pump/alternator belt? And how do you get the PS belt off? Do you have to take the PS pully off or what? THanks for the help Gee_Emm. I might try that tomarrow.

*Gee_Emm* · 09-05-2002, 12:38 AM

It was the altenator belt, I determined it with the WD40 method. I think I did take the pulley off the ps pump, my memory is a little fuzzy on that. I know how annoying this noise is, it was sooooo embarassing. At one point I was even thinking my harmonic balancer was coming apart. I spent hours trying to figure that damn noise out when in the end the fix was so simple. Actually more is coming back to me now, I just remember that the reason that I was having a problem was that the belt that was on there was too small, the one I replaced it with was wider. Yah that makes sence, the belt being too small was sitting down in the pulley too deep and thus was rubbing against the edge. Geez fuzzy memory here, the bad part was all this only happened about a year ago :p :p :p

*Gee_Emm* · 09-05-2002, 12:44 AM

Oh and about the ps pump pulley, those things are a major pain in the ass to take off, I think i might have unbolted the whole pump from the bracket and left the pulley on the pump.

Anyways thats what I would recommend doing cuz you can easily mess that pulley up getting it off.

HotRod929 · 09-05-2002, 01:08 AM

So you think i might need to go with a slightly wider belt for the water pump/alternator Gee_Emm? Sounds like thats worth a try.

HotRod

*Gee_Emm* · 09-05-2002, 01:11 AM

Yup hidden in all my rambling was that suggestion. I don't know what size is supposed to be on it. Maybe someone on here knows that?

HotRod929 · 09-05-2002, 01:30 AM

Yea anyone know what size the belts are suposed to be?

HotRod

ChevLoRay · 09-05-2002, 07:12 AM

You asked several times about how to get the belt off of the P/S pump, and the suggestion was to take the pulley off. I don't think that is right. For one thing (think about this), when you put the new belt on, and you have to get the pulley back onto the shaft, along with the nut that holds it on AND you have to figure out how to hold the shaft while you tighten the nut.....well, let's just say that you will be extremely mad at yourself for taking that route. It is NOT the way to go.

There is an adjustment on the pump. It may not be easy to get to, and it is probably covered in an oily, dirty layer or two, but it is there and it is meant to be used when you have to adjust/replace the belt.

Here is what is written in my shop manual:
1. Loosen nut on pivot bolt and pump brace adjusting nut.
CAUTION: Do not move pump by prying against reservoir or by pulling on filler neck.
2. Move pump, with belt in place until is belt is tensioned to specifications (using a belt tension tester).
3. Tighten pump brace adjusting nut. Then, tighted pivot bolt nut.

So, there are TWO nuts to loosen, and neither one is the nut that holds the pulley on. You may have to get under the truck. You may have to get a good flashlight, or drop light, to see it. But, you'll be glad you did. It won't be easy, but it is way easier than pulling the pulley off of the pump. After all, the pump is designed for replacement. Removing the pulley won't do diddly for getting the pump off of the engine. That's why there are those two bolts mentioned above....the pivot bolt and the pump brace bolt.

Hope this helps someone.

Huck · 09-05-2002, 07:55 AM

Belt squeal is best fixed with a new belt--period. The old ones get brittle and hard without being visable. There is a new style belt out that has notches in the top of the belt that helps bite into the pully to prevent slippage. It's called "Top Cog" made by DAYCO. Try call ing some of your local auto parts stores like Advance Auto Parts, PEP Boys, etc. Each belt has a tension adjustment that does not require component removal so look for it. More then likely, if one belt is squealing, the others are also likely candidates for replacement. I like to bring the old one with me to the store to ensure correct length and WIDTH as it makes a difference. I'v got a squealler on a recent truck purchas I made and will be replacing all three belts shortly and while I'm at it, checking the radiator & heater hoses in the process. Once I'm in there, I like to take care of the cheapie stuff all at once---loosing 2 gallons of antifreeze in the middle of winter is not my idea of fun. MY .02 ----good luck---Huck

09-04-2002, 10:05 AM	#1
HotRod929 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Bondurant, IA but in Worcester, MA for school Posts: 767	Belt squeal??? I have a bad belt squeal in my truck when I floor it some times. Its really annoying. I think its the power stearing pump belt and my thought was that when I flor it and the RPM go way up the pump cant spin at that high a speed so the belt slips. This was just one of my crazy ideas i thought of. I have no evidence to back this up. If anyone knows what the problem is or how to fix it that would be great. Oh and the belts are pritty new. I was thinking of converting to one serpentine belt but thats later on down the road. THanks guys. HotRod __________________ 1970 Chevy C-20 350 V-8 Turbo 350 w/ shift kit Dana 60 w/ 4.10 gears AND Powr-Loc POSI New Additions: Summit Headers 135amp alternator Proform HEI Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb Sunpro Tach Powr-Loc POSI Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake MSD 6A Ignition Box AIM: HotRod929 Visit My Site: http://1970chevy.netfirms.com/

09-04-2002, 12:11 PM	#2
HotRod929 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Bondurant, IA but in Worcester, MA for school Posts: 767	Anyone????? __________________ 1970 Chevy C-20 350 V-8 Turbo 350 w/ shift kit Dana 60 w/ 4.10 gears AND Powr-Loc POSI New Additions: Summit Headers 135amp alternator Proform HEI Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb Sunpro Tach Powr-Loc POSI Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake MSD 6A Ignition Box AIM: HotRod929 Visit My Site: http://1970chevy.netfirms.com/

09-04-2002, 12:39 PM	#3
Blazer1970 Registered User Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Old Mission, MI, USA Posts: 2,510	Mine does it too, but I am 99% sure it is the slipping at the water pump pulley. Because of the Corvette water pump (larger pilot) I have on there, I had to go with a fan clutch that doesn't let the fan slip nearly as quick as the stock one. That combines with the fact that there is hardly any belt engagement with that pulley with the stock accessory bracket set-up in these trucks. I have to swap back to a normal water pump, and go back to the stock fan clutch. __________________ Tim

09-04-2002, 12:55 PM	#4
Fred T Cantankerous Geezer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bel Aire, KS Posts: 6,264	To find out if it is a belt squealing, spray a shot of WD-40 or belt dressing on the v portion of the belt, best if you can do it with the engine running. If you use WD-40, the next step is to apply some belt dressing. I would try this one belt at a time until I found the offending belt. How's the pulley alignment? __________________ Fred There is no such thing as too much cam...just not enough engine.

09-04-2002, 01:17 PM	#5
HotRod929 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Bondurant, IA but in Worcester, MA for school Posts: 767	The pullys look pritty aligned to me. __________________ 1970 Chevy C-20 350 V-8 Turbo 350 w/ shift kit Dana 60 w/ 4.10 gears AND Powr-Loc POSI New Additions: Summit Headers 135amp alternator Proform HEI Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb Sunpro Tach Powr-Loc POSI Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake MSD 6A Ignition Box AIM: HotRod929 Visit My Site: http://1970chevy.netfirms.com/

09-04-2002, 02:25 PM	#6
HotRod929 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Bondurant, IA but in Worcester, MA for school Posts: 767	So just spray some WD-40 on the belts and the should stop squealing? Is that what you are saying Fred T? HotRod __________________ 1970 Chevy C-20 350 V-8 Turbo 350 w/ shift kit Dana 60 w/ 4.10 gears AND Powr-Loc POSI New Additions: Summit Headers 135amp alternator Proform HEI Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb Sunpro Tach Powr-Loc POSI Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake MSD 6A Ignition Box AIM: HotRod929 Visit My Site: http://1970chevy.netfirms.com/

09-04-2002, 03:51 PM	#7
woodrow59 OzarkHillbilly in Atlanta Join Date: May 2002 Location: Douglasville, Ga. Salem, Mo. Posts: 386	Had the same problem ,,,, mine was the alternator out of line. Have an '85 305 with '68 exhaust manifolds so things didn't match up just right. Had to bend the bracket that attaches to the manifold and magicly the squel went away. __________________ 72 custom/10 LWB 68 Longhorn C20 Custom Camper (sold)

09-04-2002, 04:21 PM	#8
COBALT Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 5,817	No, he's not saying WD-40 will stop the belt from slipping it will just stop it from squealing as a test to find out which belt is slipping. You should probably get someone to help you. Shoot the V with some WD-40 while someone's reving the engine. See if the squeal goes away. If it does then the belt you just sprayed is the problem. Make sure they're as tight as they should be first of all. There's a deflection-per-foot figure that determines if the belt is tight enough (1/2" deflection per foot? 3/4"?--can't remember). I always do it by feel. Another thing you can do is use a bar of soap. While the engine is running allow a bar of soap to rub against the V part of the belt until the entire belt has been dressed. That'll stop slippage as well. __________________ '69 3/4 ton C20 2wd-350ci/TH400 '69 3/4 ton Custom 20 2wd-350ci/4sp Manual '99 2wd 5.7 Chevy Tahoe Seattle, WA.

09-04-2002, 05:51 PM	#9
HotRod929 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Bondurant, IA but in Worcester, MA for school Posts: 767	Well so far i think its the powerstearing belt. Its pritty tight. Now what do I do? HotRod __________________ 1970 Chevy C-20 350 V-8 Turbo 350 w/ shift kit Dana 60 w/ 4.10 gears AND Powr-Loc POSI New Additions: Summit Headers 135amp alternator Proform HEI Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb Sunpro Tach Powr-Loc POSI Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake MSD 6A Ignition Box AIM: HotRod929 Visit My Site: http://1970chevy.netfirms.com/

09-04-2002, 08:08 PM	#10
Zkast Account Suspended Join Date: May 2002 Location: Olathe, Kansas Posts: 929	Powersteering typically wont have much freewheeling resistance. Only when pressure is demanded, then it starts to drag. "Most" of the time you'll find a waterpump pulley causing the noise, due to a seized fan clutch or loose belt. Assuming you have a belt driven fan? it can cause a massive load at higher rpms making the belt slip(squeal) If you arent positive on the belt tension you can try removing one belt at a time, run it and find the one... but thats alot of work. I'm not ruling out a P/S pump problem but the more common is the waterpump/alternator belt. The WD-40 is a good tip for finding the belt noise, its not meant for a fix... just a means of finding out which one. Belt dressing is a mess after its been on a little while. Clean belts and pulleys dont make noise... find out WHY its making noise. Good luck with it.

09-04-2002, 08:16 PM	#11
HotRod929 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Bondurant, IA but in Worcester, MA for school Posts: 767	Well I tried the WD-40 thing and it got me no where. I sprayed it on the 1st belt (PS) while it was running and reved the engine. Squeal. Sprayed it on the alternator and waterpump belt. Same thing squeal. I noticed that maybe my PS pully was wobeling a little. It might have been my mind playing tricks on me. So im stuck again. How do I test if my fan clutch is stuck? HotRod __________________ 1970 Chevy C-20 350 V-8 Turbo 350 w/ shift kit Dana 60 w/ 4.10 gears AND Powr-Loc POSI New Additions: Summit Headers 135amp alternator Proform HEI Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb Sunpro Tach Powr-Loc POSI Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake MSD 6A Ignition Box AIM: HotRod929 Visit My Site: http://1970chevy.netfirms.com/

09-04-2002, 08:38 PM	#12
Zkast Account Suspended Join Date: May 2002 Location: Olathe, Kansas Posts: 929	Warm the engine then turn it off. You should be able to spin the fan NO MORE than 1.5 revolutions. If it turns more than that its bad. If you cant turn it at all, its bad. In your case, I would remove the outside belt then rev the engine. If the noise is still there remove the other belt. This will let you know if there is a problem with a belt driven componant. Bad belts will do this and drive you crazy lol. The belt looks good but the cords have seperated which gives no tension. You can adjust it all day long and it will just act as a rubber band. Try popping the belts off and give that a shot.

09-04-2002, 08:50 PM	#13
HotRod929 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Bondurant, IA but in Worcester, MA for school Posts: 767	Well i know how to get the alternator belt off but how in the world do you get the Power Stearing belt off? Do you have to take off the PS pully? Is it hard? HotRod __________________ 1970 Chevy C-20 350 V-8 Turbo 350 w/ shift kit Dana 60 w/ 4.10 gears AND Powr-Loc POSI New Additions: Summit Headers 135amp alternator Proform HEI Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb Sunpro Tach Powr-Loc POSI Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake MSD 6A Ignition Box AIM: HotRod929 Visit My Site: http://1970chevy.netfirms.com/

09-04-2002, 08:56 PM	#14
Zkast Account Suspended Join Date: May 2002 Location: Olathe, Kansas Posts: 929	Try taking the alternator belt off first. I'm willing to bet you find your problem there.

09-05-2002, 12:16 AM	#15
Gee_Emm Account Suspended Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,002	I had this problem too and it drove me nuts!!!!!!! I tried everything, I thought it might be the bearings, I did the WD40 thing, i tried playing with the aligment of the accesories, finally one day I decided I will put on the spare belt I had in my truck. I havent heard a peep since the day I changed it.



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09-05-2002, 12:21 AM	#16
HotRod929 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Bondurant, IA but in Worcester, MA for school Posts: 767	Which belt did you replace? The PS belt or the water pump/alternator belt? And how do you get the PS belt off? Do you have to take the PS pully off or what? THanks for the help Gee_Emm. I might try that tomarrow. __________________ 1970 Chevy C-20 350 V-8 Turbo 350 w/ shift kit Dana 60 w/ 4.10 gears AND Powr-Loc POSI New Additions: Summit Headers 135amp alternator Proform HEI Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb Sunpro Tach Powr-Loc POSI Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake MSD 6A Ignition Box AIM: HotRod929 Visit My Site: http://1970chevy.netfirms.com/

09-05-2002, 12:38 AM	#17
Gee_Emm Account Suspended Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,002	It was the altenator belt, I determined it with the WD40 method. I think I did take the pulley off the ps pump, my memory is a little fuzzy on that. I know how annoying this noise is, it was sooooo embarassing. At one point I was even thinking my harmonic balancer was coming apart. I spent hours trying to figure that damn noise out when in the end the fix was so simple. Actually more is coming back to me now, I just remember that the reason that I was having a problem was that the belt that was on there was too small, the one I replaced it with was wider. Yah that makes sence, the belt being too small was sitting down in the pulley too deep and thus was rubbing against the edge. Geez fuzzy memory here, the bad part was all this only happened about a year ago :p :p :p

09-05-2002, 12:44 AM	#18
Gee_Emm Account Suspended Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,002	Oh and about the ps pump pulley, those things are a major pain in the ass to take off, I think i might have unbolted the whole pump from the bracket and left the pulley on the pump. Anyways thats what I would recommend doing cuz you can easily mess that pulley up getting it off.

09-05-2002, 01:08 AM	#19
HotRod929 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Bondurant, IA but in Worcester, MA for school Posts: 767	So you think i might need to go with a slightly wider belt for the water pump/alternator Gee_Emm? Sounds like thats worth a try. HotRod __________________ 1970 Chevy C-20 350 V-8 Turbo 350 w/ shift kit Dana 60 w/ 4.10 gears AND Powr-Loc POSI New Additions: Summit Headers 135amp alternator Proform HEI Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb Sunpro Tach Powr-Loc POSI Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake MSD 6A Ignition Box AIM: HotRod929 Visit My Site: http://1970chevy.netfirms.com/

09-05-2002, 01:11 AM	#20
Gee_Emm Account Suspended Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,002	Yup hidden in all my rambling was that suggestion. I don't know what size is supposed to be on it. Maybe someone on here knows that?

09-05-2002, 01:30 AM	#21
HotRod929 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Bondurant, IA but in Worcester, MA for school Posts: 767	Yea anyone know what size the belts are suposed to be? HotRod __________________ 1970 Chevy C-20 350 V-8 Turbo 350 w/ shift kit Dana 60 w/ 4.10 gears AND Powr-Loc POSI New Additions: Summit Headers 135amp alternator Proform HEI Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb Sunpro Tach Powr-Loc POSI Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake MSD 6A Ignition Box AIM: HotRod929 Visit My Site: http://1970chevy.netfirms.com/

09-05-2002, 07:12 AM	#22
ChevLoRay Old Skool Club Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Benton, AR "The Heart of Arkansas" Posts: 10,880	You asked several times about how to get the belt off of the P/S pump, and the suggestion was to take the pulley off. I don't think that is right. For one thing (think about this), when you put the new belt on, and you have to get the pulley back onto the shaft, along with the nut that holds it on AND you have to figure out how to hold the shaft while you tighten the nut.....well, let's just say that you will be extremely mad at yourself for taking that route. It is NOT the way to go. There is an adjustment on the pump. It may not be easy to get to, and it is probably covered in an oily, dirty layer or two, but it is there and it is meant to be used when you have to adjust/replace the belt. Here is what is written in my shop manual: 1. Loosen nut on pivot bolt and pump brace adjusting nut. CAUTION: Do not move pump by prying against reservoir or by pulling on filler neck. 2. Move pump, with belt in place until is belt is tensioned to specifications (using a belt tension tester). 3. Tighten pump brace adjusting nut. Then, tighted pivot bolt nut. So, there are TWO nuts to loosen, and neither one is the nut that holds the pulley on. You may have to get under the truck. You may have to get a good flashlight, or drop light, to see it. But, you'll be glad you did. It won't be easy, but it is way easier than pulling the pulley off of the pump. After all, the pump is designed for replacement. Removing the pulley won't do diddly for getting the pump off of the engine. That's why there are those two bolts mentioned above....the pivot bolt and the pump brace bolt. Hope this helps someone. __________________ Member Nr. 2770 '96 GMC Sportside; 4.3/SLT - Daily driven....constantly needs washed. '69 C-10 SWB; 350/TH400 - in limbo The older I get, the better I was.

09-05-2002, 07:55 AM	#23
Huck Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Shelbyville, KY Posts: 3,269	Belt squeal is best fixed with a new belt--period. The old ones get brittle and hard without being visable. There is a new style belt out that has notches in the top of the belt that helps bite into the pully to prevent slippage. It's called "Top Cog" made by DAYCO. Try call ing some of your local auto parts stores like Advance Auto Parts, PEP Boys, etc. Each belt has a tension adjustment that does not require component removal so look for it. More then likely, if one belt is squealing, the others are also likely candidates for replacement. I like to bring the old one with me to the store to ensure correct length and WIDTH as it makes a difference. I'v got a squealler on a recent truck purchas I made and will be replacing all three belts shortly and while I'm at it, checking the radiator & heater hoses in the process. Once I'm in there, I like to take care of the cheapie stuff all at once---loosing 2 gallons of antifreeze in the middle of winter is not my idea of fun. MY .02 ----good luck---Huck

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