Are alignments on these trucks that hard to accomplish?

[chevymotocross]

I work at a Pep Boys, in sales. Ever since I bought my 87 r10, it pulled to the right. I brought it over to service to align while I work. Truck is "finished" but the worker (i don't know these guys too well yet, just started 3 weeks ago) says the printout machine isn't working, so I trust his word. Truck actually pulled worse than before and the steering wheel even more crooked. I bring it in next day, spoke to an assistant service manager, he had someone "more qualified" on alignments do it. He finishes it, says the printout machine is still broken. Says the last guy was way off, but the camber is still off since it isn't adjustable? Ok so I guess it still isn't completed. Sure enough, I get in the truck and it still pulls to the right, just as bad as it did initially. So I went from bad, to horrible, to bad. I even work here and I can't get good service after getting to know these guys.

[gchemist]

The machine is only as smart as the tech. The tech is trying to align to specs. If you have aftermarket stuff forget it. They will never get it right. Take to it Brake Check. They do alignments to what you've done. They did my Jimmy with 17" wheels. Drives straight as an arrow.

[chevymotocross]

No suspension modifications, it does have 16'' wheels on it tho

[Captkaos]

Originally Posted by chevymotocross

.... spoke to an assistant service manager, he had someone "more qualified" on alignments do it. He finishes it, says the printout machine is still broken. Says the last guy was way off, but the camber is still off since it isn't adjustable?

Please tell me you aren't paying for any of this and they are giving you alignments for free, because you should be charging them to learn on your truck. There is no reason a stock (even a modified/lowered ) pickup cannot be aligned.
To say you cannot adjust the camber on these is ridiculous, does he know what camber is? It is the amount of angle off 90 degrees when viewed from the front or rear of the tire. The stack of shims at the top control arm set this. It also has little to do with pulling to one side and typically doesn't need adjusting unless you made major changes.

assuming the 2 lines are the outside/inside of your tire, and you are looking from the front at both tires
// ---- \\<- this is negative camber
\\ ---- //<- this is positive camber
Caster is the angle if you drew a line from the top balljoint to the bottom. This isn't adjustable on these trucks.
Toe is what causes pulling to one side. Typically most cars have positive toe (toe in) where the distance between the vertical centerlines of the front tires are smaller when measured at the front than the same centerline at the back. If this is off, you will have it pulling to one side.

[SKarpenz]

The frame could be bent. Seen many trucks and older cars come through the shop like that. Even if it isn't noticable. Something to consider when you can't get an alignment straight.

[Captkaos]

Better pics to explain:
Camber:
http://www.allwheelalignment.com/images/alignment3.gif
Caster:
http://www.allwheelalignment.com/images/alignment2.gif
Toe:
http://www.allwheelalignment.com/images/alignment1.gif

[Ivan D.]

Originally Posted by chevymotocross

Says the last guy was way off, but the camber is still off since it isn't adjustable?

I had a similar experience when aligning my Lincoln after rebuilding the front end, chief technician at Belle Tire told me he can only adjust toe, as the caster of these cars is not adjustable - I just walked to the the manager of the shop who was standing behind the counter and with dead-calm voice told him it'd be in his best interest to fire his technician on the spot, as he obviously knows nothing about alignments. I was the same Belle Tire shop that had to install me two tires for free because one of the other technicians decided to lay on the gas and spin the rear tires as he was entering the garage...

I honestly think that most of these places go just by what the machine tells them to, and as said the machine has only so much "knowledge". Captkaos is correct, camber is adjusted through the shims behind the UCA shafts. However I have been told that this is also how one adjusts caster - by having more shims under the front of the UCA shaft than under the rear bolt.

[Zoomad75]

On the IFS front end all three adjustments can be made on these trucks. Camber is adjusted by taking away or adding equal amounts of shims from both studs on the Upper control arm shaft. Caster is adjusted by taking away or adding shims from the front or the rear stud on each upper contol arm shaft. Toe is simple at the tie rods.

One key point in the settings of alignments is centering the steering wheel/steering gear. The saginaw steering gears are built with a high spot when it is on center, meaning tighter tolerance to the gears. This gives the nice road feel when driving straight down the road. If the numbnuts alignment tech proceeds to set toe without first centering the steering gear you can end up with a loose feelng when driving straight, not to mention the steering wheel won't be oriented correctly. (unless the tech hides his problem by trying to remove and reinstall the steering wheel to look right.) If the toe wasn't set correctly on top of it, the gear not being centered would accentuate the pull as the tolerance between the gears off center are less to allow for easy turning.

I've done a few alignments myself with equipment I've had availible through school and can say this about it. There is a certain amount of science and an art to doing alignments correctly. Good alignment techs have a feel for what's right and know exactly where to put the settings for the best driveability even when they have a wide margin put out by the manufacturer or alignment machine. Finding a good alignment tech is hard to do. I can say they are not normally found a pep-boys or any other chain store/shop. Call around and find who other gear heads in your area take thier stuff too. Chances are it's a shop that's been around for a very long time and specialize in front end work/alignments.

Just because it's free or cheap doesn't mean you'll get the best outcome for an alignment. If you want it done right take it to a pro.

[chevymotocross]

The more reputable service guy here, which I seem to trust as well, will look at it for me next time I am in. I chatted with him and it is possible that the alignment is still off, but he also thinks there could possibly be a brake issue. It pulls to the right. This could be a couple of things. A collapsed line on the right side, causing not enough fluid to exit and release pressure.... thus causing pressure on the pads/rotor and causing a pull to the right. Could also be a collapsed line on the left side, causing fluid to not fully reach the left side, causing all braking power to the right.... causing a pull, but the truck pulls when not even braking. Could also be a frozen caliper. I'm guessing that after he checks the alignment, and that is well, that it's a bad right side hose or caliper.

[Ivan D.]

Originally Posted by chevymotocross

The more reputable service guy here, which I seem to trust as well, will look at it for me next time I am in. I chatted with him and it is possible that the alignment is still off, but he also thinks there could possibly be a brake issue. It pulls to the right. This could be a couple of things. A collapsed line on the right side, causing not enough fluid to exit and release pressure.... thus causing pressure on the pads/rotor and causing a pull to the right. Could also be a collapsed line on the left side, causing fluid to not fully reach the left side, causing all braking power to the right.... causing a pull, but the truck pulls when not even braking. Could also be a frozen caliper. I'm guessing that after he checks the alignment, and that is well, that it's a bad right side hose or caliper.

Oh, if it was a locked up caliper or a collapsed hose you'd know, it'd pull like there ain't no tomorrow when braking, and heat up nicely and smoke when driving at highway speeds.

[PorkchopBurnside]

The alignment could be correct and the pull could be in the tires. There is something that happens called radial pull. Basically, it is usually a bad tire(s). I've worked at Sears Auto Center for 3 years as a tire technician and the same thing has happened with a few of our customers. An easy way to tell is to just swap the front tires. If it is a radial pull, after swapping tires it should pull the opposite way, in your case to the left. Not backing the tech here, but a radial pull could be the culprit. I agree with the previous posters about these trucks being easy to align. I had our mechanic align my 85 short and wide off the clock , he used the old string method and his eye and it drives straight as an arrow. Just give the front tires a swap and see if anything changes, or better yet have your service bay do it and go for a test drive, could be you just need a couple new tires.

Joe

[grinch4om]

any way you could put the print out on here? It will tell most of the alignment issues, I've done a zillion of em...if no print out, go somewhere else!

[Mr79C10]

Originally Posted by PorkchopBurnside

The alignment could be correct and the pull could be in the tires. There is something that happens called radial pull. Basically, it is usually a bad tire(s). I've worked at Sears Auto Center for 3 years as a tire technician and the same thing has happened with a few of our customers. An easy way to tell is to just swap the front tires. If it is a radial pull, after swapping tires it should pull the opposite way, in your case to the left. Not backing the tech here, but a radial pull could be the culprit. I agree with the previous posters about these trucks being easy to align. I had our mechanic align my 85 short and wide off the clock , he used the old string method and his eye and it drives straight as an arrow. Just give the front tires a swap and see if anything changes, or better yet have your service bay do it and go for a test drive, could be you just need a couple new tires.

Joe

How do you do the "Old Skool" string method for camber? I can see to set caster.

[magnethead]

you use the string (or a long 2x4, or a long straight piece of pipe) to set the toe-in. Camber i've seen done with a modified framing square and protractor.

[454HO]

Originally Posted by Mr79C10

How do you do the "Old Skool" string method for camber? I can see to set caster.

Use as a plumb bob. Of course this method requires the vehicle to be on a level surface to start with.

Afix the string to the top of the rim at a fixed distance away from the rim, let string hang straight down. Carefully measure the distance from rim to string at top, and at bottom. If bottom number is smaller, you have negative camber. Using the rim diameter, the difference of the above measurements, and a little geometry, you can figure out the angle.

You can also use an ordinary carpenter's level to establish the vertical reference line. Not exactly rocket science.