What's the difference?

[CDA 455]

Regarding traction and handling ONLY:

What's the difference between having a Detroit locker or a spool in my Front D60?

I have heard that a spool would be more difficult to deal with in snow than a D.L.

For some reason I don't get this because other than going forward/straight ahead, a D.L. will lock up. Right ?

And a spool just makes things simpler and stronger.

Will a D.L. unlock while climbing a hill and turning ?


Thanks for any input and advise !

[68K20 x Drill]

DL will let one wheel roll faster than the driven wheel if there is plenty of traction, allowing a driveline to unbind I suppose.

With a spool, the driveline will always be bound and the tires will always scrub.

[88JRFAN]

Spools Are Really Only Good For Race Cars. Unless It's Going In A Truck That Will Only See Off Road.

[LONGHAIR]

As long as there is an accelerating load on the Detroit Locker it will not unlock either. When you let the truck "coast" it will unlock.
I would not recommend either for average guy off-roading, maybe rock crawling or serious mud bogging, if you are at a competition level. For trail riding and what an average guy does, you will have torque-steer problems. On snow/ice it will be down-right dangerous.

[Chevy1TonFun]

so what should us average offroaders use for 'lockers" or carriers?

['71c204x4454]

The snow issue is with a locker or spool in front or back is that it works good as long as there is some traction, but if you have very little traction like on ice or hard packed snow both tires will break lose and then you lose your latteral traction. (Slide side way's real easy).

What I'm using for traction and mine truck is a dd in the winter time (and it's snowing out right now.) is a No-Spin in the rear but I don't have a chose since it's an Eaton which I love. I hardly ever put my truck in 4wd any more no need just step on it and go. But as for what to use on front I've been researching it. I'm looking in to a Tru-trac or a selectable locker. Like an ARB or OX. The Tru-trac is a posi type unit and the selectable is so you can turn it on and off when you need it.

[CDA 455]

Originally Posted by '71c204x4454

The snow issue is with a locker or spool in front or back is that it works good as long as there is some traction, but if you have very little traction like on ice or hard packed snow both tires will break lose and then you lose your latteral traction. (Slide side way's real easy).

Ah, interesting point.



Here's the trouble I'm having with understanding this:

If two rigs (One with a D.L. and the other one with a spool) ascends a snow-covered hill and has to do a little turning on the way up, how does a Detroit Locker act differently than a spool?

I'm assuming the Detroit Locker will stay locker all the way up the hill. And if that is in-fact the case, why not just get a spool since the D.L. acts pretty close to it anyway?



I'm going to put a Detroit locker in my 14BFF, so I figure I'll do most of my trail riding in 2WD low-range. And when I need to I'll shift into 4WD low-range for the difficult stuff.

I'm thinking of putting drive flanges in my D60 as well. And if I do that I'll also do chro-mo 35-spline axles too.

[snj8198]

Originally Posted by CDA 455

Ah, interesting point.



Here's the trouble I'm having with understanding this:

If two rigs (One with a D.L. and the other one with a spool) ascends a snow-covered hill and has to do a little turning on the way up, how does a Detroit Locker act differently than a spool?

I'm assuming the Detroit Locker will stay locker all the way up the hill. And if that is in-fact the case, why not just get a spool since the D.L. acts pretty close to it anyway?



I'm going to put a Detroit locker in my 14BFF, so I figure I'll do most of my trail riding in 2WD low-range. And when I need to I'll shift into 4WD low-range for the difficult stuff.

I'm thinking of putting drive flanges in my D60 as well. And if I do that I'll also do chro-mo 35-spline axles too.

are you twin-sticked?

[Zoomad75]

Here's the issue. Turning the front axle with a detroit or a spool is not easy. If you got power applied, the detroit wont unlock. A lot of folks running them up front go with twin sticks for the t-case so you can disengage the front axle all together and make the turn. I guess it really don't matter if it's a trail only truck.

Out back the detroit and a spool don't behave much differently. Until you start turning corners. On the dirt, this isn't an issue because the loose surface would allow the slower moving tire to scrub easier. On the pavement, the detroit will unload and make it's characteristic clanks going around the corner, but without too much stress on the slower tire. A spool on the street is going to chirp the slower tire every time you turn. Meaning your going to wear out your tires quicker.

Again, if the truck is a trail only beast, spool it up out back. I'd still wouldn't spool the front to save your turning ability. either get a selectible locker, twin stick it or go with a detroit tru-track LSD. No clutches to wear out.

[Zoomad75]

Here's your problem with your example of driving up a snowy hill with some turns while locked up or spooled in the rear. Add any amount of off camber slope (which most mountain trails in CO have) and that rear axle is going to be an issue. As stated before, if you have hardpack snow or ice, the detroit or spool will make you slide sideways. Well add the off camber slope to the mix and your tail is going to be hanging off trail if your not careful.

Example, we were out snow bashing a couple years back. A buddy of Dirtylarry and me had a J20 Jeep with welded spiders in the rear diff. I was unlocked and followed the J20 all the way up the trail to one section. I come around the switchback to find the J20's rear left side hanging off the trail and the only thing keeping the truck from falling down the slope was a pine tree that the tire was pressed against. Every attempt to move forward just made the truck want to slide more off the trail. So we had to break out the winch cable to pull him back on solid ground. He'd attempt to drive forward and it would silde sideways again. We had to winch that truck a good 150-200 yards up hill to a spot where he could turn around to come back down.

Now had if he had some type of front locker/limited slip the front axle might have been able to pull him and negate some of the slide that the rear lincoln locker provided.

so what should us average offroaders use for 'lockers" or carriers?

Not being locked up I'd have to say I've really been impressed by the setup DirtyLarry has in his K10. He's got a detroit in the 14bff out back and a Detroit tru-trac in the front D44. Combined with 4.56's I've seen that thing do some neat climbs effortlessly. It's a darn near bulletproof arrangement. Only weak spot I see is the front axle shafts if he ever got it bound up. But then again, he's pretty smooth with the throttle and not one to go hammer down through an obstical. I'd say it's the combination I'm shooting for with mine.

[bdozeraz]

Originally Posted by CDA 455

I'm going to put a Detroit locker in my 14BFF, so I figure I'll do most of my trail riding in 2WD low-range. And when I need to I'll shift into 4WD low-range for the difficult stuff.

I'm thinking of putting drive flanges in my D60 as well. And if I do that I'll also do chro-mo 35-spline axles too.

If you put a spool in front it won't let you turn for beans even if you are in two low. It doesn't matter if power is applied or not the spool will not let the tires turn independent. If you have a locker in front and drive in two low the locker will allow the front tires to turn independent while not being driven. If you have the funds I highly recomend a selectable locker. I run a Detroit in the rear and an ARB in the front and get the best of both worlds.

[LONGHAIR]

I'm with Zoomad75 on this. The Detriot locker in the rear and Tru-Trac up front. It seems to be the best all-around trail riding set-up. It will get you through most things and still remain "driveable". You will hear/feel the clunk of the DL but the front will not fight with you. I had the same set-up in a '74 LWB many years ago. It only had a Dana44 front, but the principle is the same.

[CDA 455]

Originally Posted by bdozeraz

If you put a spool in front it won't let you turn for beans even if you are in two low. It doesn't matter if power is applied or not the spool will not let the tires turn independent. If you have a locker in front and drive in two low the locker will allow the front tires to turn independent while not being driven. If you have the funds I highly recomend a selectable locker. I run a Detroit in the rear and an ARB in the front and get the best of both worlds.

It appears that the Detroit Locker acts very, very similar to the spool.

And if I can twin stick my NP205, I can shift the front axle into neutral when I need to do any turns.

Does that sound about right?


If I have a spool up front with drive flanges the tires will chirp when I turn because the spool permanently connects both axles, correct?

But if I have lock-out, then they won't. Correct?


If I have a Detroit Locker with driver flanges the tires won't chirp when I turn because no torque is being applied when I'm in 2WD, right?


Thanks again guys for all the imput !!

[bdozeraz]

Originally Posted by CDA 455

It appears that the Detroit Locker acts very, very similar to the spool.

And if I can twin stick my NP205, I can shift the front axle into neutral when I need to do any turns.

Does that sound about right? Yes


If I have a spool up front with drive flanges the tires will chirp when I turn because the spool permanently connects both axles, correct? Yes

But if I have lock-out, then they won't. Correct? Yes


If I have a Detroit Locker with driver flanges the tires won't chirp when I turn because no torque is being applied when I'm in 2WD, right? YES


Thanks again guys for all the imput !!

No problem.

[LONGHAIR]

If I have a spool up front with drive flanges the tires will chirp when I turn because the spool permanently connects both axles, correct?

But if I have lock-out, then they won't. Correct?


If I have a Detroit Locker with driver flanges the tires won't chirp when I turn because no torque is being applied when I'm in 2WD, right?

They will do more than chirp on pavement. Even in the rear you will notice a difference in steering with a spool on pavement. In the front it would be intollerable. Even off road a spool would act wierd as far as steering. Which-ever tire had the most traction would be dominant and the truck would tend to follow it. Even with power steering it would be a handfull, w/o it would be a nightmare

Yes, lockouts would stop the street issues, but not the above mentioned off-road manners.

I wouldn't count on that though. The load on the side gears is what keeps them engaged. The teeth of the side gears are square, that's why they lock so positively and why you can hear/feel the clunk when they engage/dis-engage. With out actually testing a locker with drive flanges (or even lock-outs that are locked-in), I wouldn't bet against the load from the axle (because of the drive flange) wouldn't keep them locked too. They need that freedom from load, like the coasting I mentioned before, to release. If it does indeed work that way, you would never be able to predict when the release would happen. It goes w/o saying, this would be very bad.
From the mini "demo" units that I remember seeing years ago, that is how the axle load works. It is not necessarily the load placed on the unit between the driveline and the tire, but from between the tires too....

Again, a gear-type unit like a Tru-Trac will give you great traction and predictable steering w/o the headaches.

[vtblazer]

Okay, lots of good input/info here so far.

Being I'm running a spooled D60 and a Detroit out back in the 14BFF, I'll throw in what I've experienced first hand trying to answer your question's.

STREET MANNERS -
1st: Don't run a spool in the front if you want 4wd while driving on public streets, it'll bite ya in the a$$ and won't turn on snow/ice.
2nd: A Detroit won't be any better cause if there's power input while turning. it's gonna lock up and act the same as a spool.
3rd: A Detroit in the rear isn't an issue on the street if you can deal with the strange chips/clunks but on snow and ice it will again act like a spool if being powered but I personally always liked my posi in the snow.

TRAIL MANNERS -
True, a spool does hinder turning ability somewhat but nothing you can't deal with especially if your running triple sticks, just disengage the front.
Running a Detroit rules, period.

Other thoughts:
If you want on the street during snow and ice condition's, lock in only one hub and drive in 3wd.
If money and absolute durability were no object, run select-ables both front and rear.

I'd consider a selectable for mine but being there hasn't been one made that's 100% reliable, I'll stick to my spool and deal.

[jacobs]

Originally Posted by vtblazer

STREET MANNERS -
1st: Don't run a spool in the front if you want 4wd while driving on public streets, it'll bite ya in the a$$ and won't turn on snow/ice.

Agreed! 40 years ago, I tried running welded spider gears in the front of my old IH Scout. It was impossible to steer on snow or ice. VERY DANGEROUS!

[cobinder]

Great post everyone!! So what works best for driving in deep mountain snow and ice for a daily driver? with no twin stick or slectable.

[vtblazer]

Originally Posted by cobinder

Great post everyone!! So what works best for driving in deep mountain snow and ice for a daily driver? with no twin stick or slectable.

Studded snow tires.

[LONGHAIR]

Tru-Trac

[CDA 455]

Originally Posted by LONGHAIR

Tru-Trac

How does Tru-Trac work if it's not a clutch-type LSD?

[Zoomad75]

It uses helical gears instead.

[CDA 455]

Originally Posted by Zoomad75

It uses helical gears instead.

So would I have to still be concerned about wear, like a clutch-type LSD?


It appears this would last much longer and not have to worry about wearing anything out like clutch-type pads and such.

[vtblazer]

Just know that it won't give you 100% lock up when wheeling but there's always trade off's with anything.

[Zoomad75]

From what I've researched, no you don't have to worry about wear like a clutch type posi. As long as you keep oil in and water out you should be ok.

Vt's right though. A tru-trac won't give you 100% lockup like a locker, it won't slip as much as a clutch type posi.

For what type of wheeling I do, a tru-trac fits right in. Plus you won't have as much potential damage to the axleshafts as you would with a locker since it will allow some slippage. That's a big plus if you still are running a D44 or 10 bolt front axle and 35" or larger tires.