700R4 vs. T5

[Tim64]

Hey Guys,
Here this spring I’m going to do a transmission upgrade. Right now I’m running a 250ci 6cyl. and a three speed manual trans. Rear end gears are very low 4:10 range. I use this truck as my daily driver. I only live 6 miles from work, so I don’t use the highway to get there, but I would like to be able to travel 65-70 mph with out the motor sounding like it was going to come flying out from under the hood, because of the high rpms it’s turning.
I believe overdrive is the answer to this problem. From what I’ve read it would seem I have two good choices, the 700r4 for automatic, or the T5 manual. Having an automatic sounds good, but if the T5 change over can be done for less cash then that’s the way I want to go. I don’t mind shifting, been driving a stick for years. I want better mpg & lower rpm @ highway speeds. What I’m looking for from you guys is what all will I need to change either way, and what is the cheapest way to go. I don’t know what parts I can re-use. For example can the cross member be used for the T5? I’m pretty sure I would have to change it for the 700r4. I’m sure several of you guys have done this swap, so please give me the low down.
Thanks, Tim

[Slmd92DIME]

Not really sure. I am in the process of putting a 700 in my 65. I got rid of the 3 speed also. I have heard that 700s arent the best tranny but I think I am going to give it a shot. Overdrive is wonderful

[wild one]

Check these out:

http://home.twcny.rr.com/schickling/1940Chevy/T5.html
http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/t5tranny.htm
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/...feature25.html
http://www.5speeds.com/t5/index.html

You might want to do a search for "T5 swap" on this board:
http://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ - this mod has been covered repeatedly
over there, it's quite popular among the older truck crowd.

Hope this helps,
Pete

[slorio]

I would also add that the inliners.org website has a great article on T-5 swaps. The folks there have done this swap a lot. With the 6 cylinder, I think you will be very pleased from what I have read. T-5's are a bit tender for the folks with V-8's
Regards,
Steve

[Tim64]

Hey thanks for the info guys. I guess what I'm really looking for is personal experience. You know stuff like " hey man don't do that same dumb ass thing I did, or you'll be sorry". I know there are some guys on this forum that have done this swap. The ones that went automatic why did you do it? and the same thing from you manual guys. I don't have any experience doing a swap like this and I need some insight from you folks that have. I have read lots of stuff (mainly from sales people) on what I need to do this, but nothing beats talking to the guys who’s really done it.
Thanks, Tim

[forcedinduction]

I'll throw my info out there for ya Tim.

When I got my 66 long / fleet with 3.73 rear gears, it had a stock 402 BBC backed up by a 86 S-10 T5. It stood up to quite a few hard launches before I finally blew the clutch and stripped the input shaft.

The BBC was leakin like crazy anyway so I traded a buddy of mine for a mild 355 SBC. I backed it with a 700R4 that I purchased as "rebuilt". I believe it had a 2800 stall but I'm not 100% sure. It worked pretty well for a few months then the pump blew on me about 150 miles from home and the towing bill sucked! Had it repaired but could never get it to shift correctly, for my tastes at least. Rowing the gears was again more appealing.

Pulled the 700R4 and installed another S-10 T5 and have driven it for 3 years that way. I don't beat on it as much as I did with the BBC but I have done a few burnouts that John Force woulda been proud of. BUT, I will admit I am leary of doin em cuz I won't forget the sound that the other T5 & clutch made when they had enough of my right foot.

I do have a T5 out of a Camaro that is waiting to have the rear swapped out with the blown S-10 T5 rear that I saved. I figure that way I can at least have a more solid trans with the shifter location of the S-10 T5.

The mileage with the T5 is better. At 70 MPH I'm only turning about 1900 RPM. With the 700R4 I was arround 2300 RPM.

I used the same crossmember mount for both of em, just "shimmed" accordingly. I modified a crossmember out of a late 70's El Camino. Basically cut a few inches off each side to narrow it to fit the 66 frame and flattened out the ends so it could be drilled and bolted on.

For the T5 installation :

Ya gotta trim about a 1/2" off the end of the input shaft as it bottoms out on the crank when you try to bolt it up to the bellhousing.

The bellhousing is a regular old cast Chevy 4 speed item. I think I had to drill the two lower holes a bit bigger as they were different from the T5 pattern. Either upper or lower two holes, can't remember. It isn't hard to figure out though as the bolts will work in two holes and not the other two.

The clutch assy is from an Astro van. Again, no blackmagic or anything... They only made one.

I hope the info helps.

Regards, Dave

[greg64]

Hey Tim,

I used to have an S10 with a T5 (actually the T5 outlasted the truck). Anyway, a couple of things I think I know.... The S10 (GM) and Mustang (Ford) models are somewhat different (enough to be a pain in the ass to switch from one to the other). Also, from memory, I'm thinking that the T5 shifter location might be too far aft, so you might want to make some measurements first to make sure you're happy with the results. At least they are light trannies, so you won't bust a gut trying to lift it into place. I'm thinking that same thing as Dave regarding the input shaft length. Seems to me the output spline is the same as a TH350 (not positive).

By the way, is your bellhousing supported? On the S10, the T5 had a couple of longitudinal rods that ran from the bellhousing to the underside of the tailhousing, presumably to counter flex when the tranny mount had to support everything. So, if your bellhousing already has mounts, then great. Otherside, you might want to think about something like this, because I suspect GM found that as the assembly flexed, it made shifting harder (who knows, maybe they were breaking cases).

Anyway, good luck,

[Tomsriv]

I see a lot of Camaro T5s on Ebay. I understand the Chevy only offered the T5 on 305 Camaros, not the 350 Camaros because they were not strong enough. I never thought of using the T5 before, but ForcedInductions testimony makes it sound pretty tempting. I have a 200-4R that has been in the truck for 10 years. I haven't had any problems. It used to have a Muncie M-21 and after 3 of them broke the PO switched to an Auto. I have since figured out that part of the problem with the Muncie was a poor mount that allowed to much twist and the other problem was old fatigued parts and a shoddy rebuild. I am seriously considering switching back to a manual, I have all the parts to do it except the trans.

[BIG CTY]

Well, that M21 info was NOT good to hear! I have a Muncie M21 in my truck now with a mildly built 350. I'd love a 5 or 6 speed though. I wish there was a 5 speed that could just bolt and go, I dont have the know how for all of this shimming and drilling and such!

[greg64]

Hey Big Cty, I'm in more or less the same position as you. I'm seriously looking at the TKO 500 because it offers the following: bolts to standard chevy bellhousing (no dicking around), has lots of flexibility on shifter location, uses standard clutch parts (no funky hydraulic throwout bearings) and would be near impossible to blow up behind the engine I have/will have. My wife and I like cruising around the mountains pulling a little trailer, so I really need the O/D for mileage and noise.

[Tim64]

Hey Greg64,
What is the TKO 500? You don't have to use a hydraulic clutch with it like the T5?
Tim

[forcedinduction]

The TKO 500 is a 5 speed gearbox from Tremec that'll hold a buncha power. Costs a buncha jack though too. About $2000 will get you the box but be prepared to shell out some moolah for the clutch, shifter, etc.

Granted, the TKO 500 would be a great box, but I'm not swimmin in it enough to justify the cost. LOL

The setup I have with the S-10 T5 is operated by a mechanical linkage, not hydraulic.

[greg64]

Hey Tim,

Here ya go: http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/TKO.asp
It can use a standard mechanical clutch linkage if you want.

I'm with ya on the cost, forcedinduction. But, I take a trip with my wife in the fall each year (hopefully) that manages to blow $2000 worth of fuel. So, I'm thinking my payback on the TKO might not be too bad compared to the TH400 my 64 has now. OD and EFI baby!

Tim, I can probably get back to you with real world costs as I head down this road.

[Heater63]

Tim, check out posts by Brad, as he has done the T5 swap.

Note that the T5 comes Non World Class (first generation, lighter duty) and World Class (second gen, a little beefier, bearings etc). The links noted above are excellent info. Note that the tailcases are interchangeable...so depending on where you want your shifter, you can use a S10 tailshaft or an Fbody tailshaft. You can also go electric or mechanical speedo.

I found ebay to be pricey...for some T5's that appeared junk or of dubious history. Check out Craigslist for your area. You can probably find better stuff and better prices. I found a good Camaro WC T5 for $250 and and S10 for $75! I intend to put the S10 tailshaft on the Camaro box so that I will have a more stock shifter location and still use a bench seat.

hope this helps

[Heater63]

Also forgot to mention, the T5 came in numerous applications, with many different ratios, especially 1st gear and the OD, so do your research and get the box that has the overdrive ratio your looking for.

[kdrodworks316]

how are you using the hyd clutch? I am thinking of the t5 swap in my 62. anyone know if you can use the stock master cylinder on the truck, and the stock slave cylinder on the trans? pics please if anyone can help

[kdrodworks316]

anyone got an S-10 t-5 tail cover they wanna part with?

[ryan913]

I read that the s10, V6, T5 will handle 250hp while the V8 T5's will handle up to 350hp. This was in an article of Classic trucks last year. They did a 5 speed swap in a 55 or so chevy truck.

[Imperial Kustom]

I did the T-5 swap in my 62. Worked great. I DO suggest using a crossmember at the rear of the trans. You can use whatever existing clutch you have because there are 35 different input shafts for that tranny and theyre a breeze to change. And at $23 bucks, they're cheaper than a clutch. Just ask for mre info and I will try and help.

[kdrodworks316]

Imperial, did you use the slave cylinder from the 62 or the t5? thats my only consern. thanks for the info

[Imperial Kustom]

All of the original hydraulics and such are still in place, although they are new equipment. I still have a 60-62 dual master cylinder, and slave cylinder. The rubber portion of the clutch line is now hardline. And I am using a 12 inch Luk clutch. no fancy aftermarket bull.

[Imperial Kustom]

I don't have any pictures of the T-5, but here are some of the T-4 five speed that I put in it first. Almost the sme stuff, except that one bolted right in without any cutting, input shaft, or clutch changes.

[kdrodworks316]

is that a bench seat? I want to keep my bench. Is the t4 and t5 comparable in length? mine is a camaro trans, do I need to do any mods to the input to get it behind my 327? thanks for your help

[Heater63]

You will want to put a S10 tailhousing on your Camaro unit if you want to keep the bench seat. I have seen just the tailhousings on ebay, but not lately.

[kdrodworks316]

if anyone comes across a s10 tail cover, I am looking. pm me