CNG Conversion???

[Texasduffer]

Anyone done any research on converting one of our trucks , or any other vehicle for that matter, to CNG? I'm wondering what the cost might be or if it's even possible with our engines/carbs.

I saw Boone Pickens on Leno a couple weeks ago and they were talking about CNG from America to replace foreign oil. Jay said he had converted one of his 50's era Cadillac's to CNG and it cost him about $1.40 per gallon to fill up. Jay just happen to leave the cost of the conversion out of the conversation....

I would think this would be a cool project. If anybody has any info, I'm sure the rest of us would be interested to hear....Thx.

[Gleekr]

A way to do this conversion is to locate a propane powered carbed pick-up most of the components interchange from what I understand. The tanks are prolly the most expensive/hardest to locate.
I haven't converted a vehicle, but I do own a '97 Safari van that runs on CNG. Been considering doing this to my '72 if I decide to keep it.

[Eddie H.]

I work on large industrial Natural gas engines for a living, and have also worked on fleet vehicles with CNG conversions. It's a good inexpensive clean burning alternative to gasoline. The biggest problem is being able to store enough of it to get much range out of a vehicle. It needs to be stored under high pressure so the tanks are bulky and expensive.
On an engine with a carburetor, it would be an easy conversion similar to a propane setup. Fuel injected engines are more complicated.
You might be able to find a CNG powered fleet vehicle in a junk yard to get the components from.
NOTE: working with CNG can also be extremely dangerous if proper precautions are not taken.
hope this helps

[chevy_mike]

Also, based on the research I did a few months back, to legally be able to fill the tank while it is mounted in the vehicle, it has to be certified, which typically means you have to be licensed to install the conversion.

It became too much of a red tape issue to deal with so I stopped moving forward. I even had gotten the mixer base plate, which was one of the harder things to get. Oh well...

[cparman]

like EDDIEH says it is under high pressure. I have a friend who writes software to have vehicleS be dual fuel. gas/CNG. He tells me that a vehicle that runs on CNG is 100 times cleaner that on gas. The conversions ( his experience is primarily Ford ) are tanks,lines and a different set of injectors. I know I am simplifying this, but for fuel injected cars its CNG, for carbed cars propane would be simpler to do. I too have thought about the change, the tanks would have to be quite big to have 200 miles or so of range.

NOW for my political rant: +++Edited by moderator+++ Please keep the politics out of the conversation.

[jrdv]

We used to run our ranch pickups on propane back in the eightys. It was cheaper than gas, but you didn't get the same range or power. It has been a while, but I remember being nervous everytime I filled the tank!

They were also hard to start in cold weather. You had to make sure to switch to the gas tank before you shut it off in the evening or else it might not start very easy the next morning. The tank in the back pretty much took up all the room in front of the fender wells on the 3/4 ton chevies.

[Texasduffer]

Are certified installers abundant or are they few and far between? I would guess I could find someone to put it together in as big a city as Houston....you'd think.

[chevy_mike]

Originally Posted by Texasduffer

Are certified installers abundant or are they few and far between? I would guess I could find someone to put it together in as big a city as Houston....you'd think.

From what I gather, there are not many left. Most CNG vehicles are coming from the factory done, unlike years past when almost all conversion were aftermaket. With the reinsterest in alternative fuels, their might be more soon.

Biggest thing is to pay someone else for a full system conversion, I have seen prices between $5,000-$10,000. Sad part is you can pick up the parts themselves for less then $1,000, not including the tank. This is all new parts. Find deals on used stuff, a few hundred bucks could get you going outside of the filling problem.

The government just does not make it easy for the individual to use alternitive powers. I guess seeing some of the hack jobs people do to vehicles, I can't blame them. I wish there was a way I could the conversion myself, then have it inspected and certified. Keeps the cost down but makes sure the system is safe.

Good luck.

[chevy_mike]

Originally Posted by jrdv

We used to run our ranch pickups on propane back in the eightys. It was cheaper than gas, but you didn't get the same range or power. It has been a while, but I remember being nervous everytime I filled the tank!

They were also hard to start in cold weather. You had to make sure to switch to the gas tank before you shut it off in the evening or else it might not start very easy the next morning. The tank in the back pretty much took up all the room in front of the fender wells on the 3/4 ton chevies.

That's one of the biggest misconceptions with Propane or CNG. If you build the engine specifically for Propane, you can get the same or more power, better economy and the internals stay VERY clean. You can go 15,000 miles between oil changes due to no carbon contaminating the oil (which is why oil turns black). The octane rating of Propane is like 110. You can run 13:1 compression ratio, which majorly boosts your power output and in turn economy. If you just convert a normal gas engine over, it won't run nearly as well, you will be down on power and the economy will be lower.

I truly did 2 months of solid research on this and if it wasn't for the whole certification issue so the tanks can be filled in vehicle, I would be doing this big time.

[Gleekr]

With the issue of refilling and certification, if you have a dual-fuel truck, why not get a VRA and do it at home? The compressors go for about $2500 and up on e-bay. But if you are comparing it to a $4000 price tag for someone to install it....

[PanelDeland]

Boone would be the one to talk up alternative fuels.He has already made millions in the oil/gas industry.A very smart and inventive man if ever there was one.He does tend to be a bit eccentric.

[Shane]

He's also the guy that stands to make the most money if "his plan" really takes hold. He is a very smart business man.

[lilred67]

i work on cng engines also for chesapeake energy, the nations 2nd largest producer of natural gas. i hope the cng automotive craze catches on, it will help my 401k. i tune and adjust 3600(i-6) & 3500(v-16)caterpillar's and 5794(v-12) waukesha's to keep their exhaust emissions below state mandated limits. if it was easier to refuel i think alot of people would go cng. honda is making a cng civic, chesepeke just ordered 100 of them to use around the corporate office in okl. city...

[lilred67]

http://www.prnewswire.com/mnr/chesapeakeenergy/34793/

[bowcoffin]

Does anyone have any updated info or price on this?

[pritch]

No, but there was a controversy here in Utah a couple years ago about the certification thing. I think the law was that the tanks had to be certified every year, and there was no legal way to have this done if not factory equipment. Something like that-I'm too lazy to look it up right now-but the law was changed to allow certs on tanks installed after market, but I think the installer still has to be certified. I don't think I've noticed a pick-up with a CNG tank in the box, like the old propane rigs had.

I'd probably look into it if my '68 was my main driver, but I drive a company-supplied work truck and this gazillionaire buys my gas.

I wonder if portable tanks will ever be available, like for the BBQ or whatever. Ah geez. There's my million-dollar idea and I just put it out on the web.

[dajn]

Its just like solar power. Its a great idea but it is to expensive at the moment. Eventually the retards in government will get their **** together. It takes them about ten years to understand the most basic concepts.

[Boog]

I also have been wondering about the feasibility of cng. I was approached recently by a CNG company wanting to put in a fuel site in our town and they were looking to sell the idea to locals with big truck fleets.
When I questioned them on just what is involved converting big diesel trucks to run on cng they were vague. Their main selling point is "about half the cost of diesel per gallon" and "feeling good about helping the environment" with the cleaner burn.
I contacted my Mack truck dealer and asked what they knew about it. They have a few Mack trucks out there running cng but don't really care for it. According to the info I received from them it is not just a fitment of cng tank and lines. It's a different engine alltogether. By their comparisons CNG produces less power and fuel mileage than current diesel engines. Limited refill locations makes a cng truck feasible only for local use. 400 mile radius or so. There are also LNG applications. Another problem with natural gas vehicles, they say, is a garage has to be refitted with explosion proof lights, light switches, venting fans, and all tools, etc for safety reasons.
Long fueling time is a drawback. They said filling a semi truck can take up to several hours in real cold weather using one of the ng types. I have heard a few truck drivers say their trucks have no power anymore on the inclines.
All of the above information is related to big truck diesels but some also applies to passenger vehicles.
We can expect taxes to be applied to cng fuel, once it catches on more, lessening it's cost advantage per gallon.

[19673ontree]

I work in the natural gas industry and I work on and operate wells and compressors we have small compressors that run on natural gas with 496 chevrolet marine engines I see 3 problems with it ,,
#1 as stated above the pressure will be too high to carry enough of it to get a long range
#2 its dry ! It has absolutley no lubrication quality to it a 496 that runs on it for any length of time has valves that look like they were tosted in an oven ! So in my opinion some type of upper cylinder lubricant needs to be added somehow
#3 GREED you may think its cheap and it may be right now but if it becomes used widespread they will raise it to equal what gas costs now they will be no savings long term ,
It burns clean , we have one truck a worker put a acetylene torch tank in the bed and hooked up the throttle body and regulator off a junk compressor and drove it that way it worked perfect but without much pressure you dont get far , we will probably have to switch to it later not because of cost but because of its clean burning , I can get pics of the 496 engines and what parts are needed if anyone wants

[19673ontree]

Originally Posted by Boog

I also have been wondering about the feasibility of cng. I was approached recently by a CNG company wanting to put in a fuel site in our town and they were looking to sell the idea to locals with big truck fleets.
When I questioned them on just what is involved converting big diesel trucks to run on cng they were vague. Their main selling point is "about half the cost of diesel per gallon" and "feeling good about helping the environment" with the cleaner burn.
I contacted my Mack truck dealer and asked what they knew about it. They have a few Mack trucks out there running cng but don't really care for it. According to the info I received from them it is not just a fitment of cng tank and lines. It's a different engine alltogether. By their comparisons CNG produces less power and fuel mileage than current diesel engines. Limited refill locations makes a cng truck feasible only for local use. 400 mile radius or so. There are also LNG applications. Another problem with natural gas vehicles, they say, is a garage has to be refitted with explosion proof lights, light switches, venting fans, and all tools, etc for safety reasons.
Long fueling time is a drawback. They said filling a semi truck can take up to several hours in real cold weather using one of the ng types. I have heard a few truck drivers say their trucks have no power anymore on the inclines.
All of the above information is related to big truck diesels but some also applies to passenger vehicles.
We can expect taxes to be applied to cng fuel, once it catches on more, lessening it's cost advantage per gallon.

one thing you did not mention or they may not have told you is that a diesal engine will not run on natural gas they mix it with diesal to cut down on the diesal fuel costs and it works but lack of power long refueling times and such are a problem , a gasoline engine will run on pure natural gas ,

[Boog]

Also natural gas needs an ignition source unlike diesel that ignites under compression.

[19673ontree]

Originally Posted by Boog

Also natural gas needs an ignition source unlike diesel that ignites under compression.

Right !

[rickpilgrim]

I helped my farm neighbor rebuild his twin turbo 89 C1500 step side and convert it to propane. We used all forged internals, edelbrock heads and 8.2/1 dished pistons and a crower cam for hot turbo small block. He runs 2-impco 425 (600 cfm)mixers, 2 regulators with push button enrichment for cod start and 2 100lb propane tans(big BBQ ones) in his bed and fills his tanks off his grain dryer.
Boost is about 10 psi and has 3 psi at 1600 rpm and peaks at 5500rpm. This thing just rocks on boost but is a dog just off idle(hold brake,mash throttle wait a second and release brake to get best takeoff.
My point is you need either 11.5/1 or better or boost to run propane effectively, any thing less than that your better off running gasoline.
He runs farm plates and has never been stopped for the tanks and if he goes anywhere he flips the switch, unhooks the low tank and tells attendant the tanks are for his chicken heater.
That's how he avoided the vehicle specific tank, not the safest but works for him. And running propane no broken piston lands that he had with 93ron and 2 bottles of 104 octane booster.

[truckster]

I have a 2001 CNG Chevy van and it's kind of a dog. I looked at adding CNG to my Blazer to save money and make it more economical to drive, but there are a number of issues. The biggest is cost. It would cost me in the neighborhood of $4000 to $5000 to convert it (carbed), and that's installing it myself. The biggest single cost is the tanks; since they have to be rated at over 3600 PSI, they're pretty expensive. The state legislature has tried to make it impossible for owners to convert vehicles, and the EPA has huge fines for anyone they catch. The bottom line is that I can buy a lot of gasoline for the $5000 and what I would save in fuel costs. It's just not worth it right now.