Big Block Fuel Injection?

[jorgensensc]

Hey all!
I am posting here because of the increased traffic. The suburban has a 402 Big Block and I have a few questions. Has anyone done fuel injection on this setup?I think some fuel injection was done on the 454 (or was it TBI?) Would a setup out of a junkyard work on the 402? I know the displacement is different, but what if the 402 had a cam, or even a 454 crank in place? Is there a Big Block Fuel Injection setup that doesn't cost a fortune? I thought I read about some vortec Big Block heads. Is there such an animal? I'm looking to make the Suburban a bit more driver friendly for my wife and am trying to figure out some different options. Cost wise it might be cheaper to put a 5.3 in it, but I want to be able to tow with it and I think I would like to keep the Big Block. I know I could just throw a 454 in it, but again, I kinda like the idea of keeping the original 402, or maybe making it a 427.... What are my options guys?
SHawn

[monte0185]

I just sold a couple weeks ago a 2000 model vortec with all the multiport fuel injection and everything. the intake pattern is the same on older to newer models fortunatley they are not like their small block counterparts and changed designs every few years. You might want to see if you can scavange the fuel injection off something like that if you want miltiport or you can do TBI farily simple and cheap.

[Tx Firefighter]

Any 454 from 87-95 will have your TBI parts. Get it all if you can.

You will likely need a custom chip to get best performance though.

[jorgensensc]

Thnx guys.
Tx, I haven't forgotten about the brackets. I just can't get them off until I can park the burb for a few days. Right now it needs to move everyday. I already have you a shirt!!

[70 Suburban]

holly projection is also an option

[Skirkpat]

You might want to look at a custom setup,It will not be cheaper than the stock TBI setup, but it wont be used, and will be much easier to tune. I would find a good local race shop that does that kind of work and look at something like this:

http://www.professional-products.com/EFI_3.php

[Skirkpat]

I just found a local guy that will sell me one for R&D for 1300.00 jobber price will be around 1650.00

[jorgensensc]

That is probably a good kit, but I was hoping for something a little less expensive. If I was to spend that much I would prefer not to buy TBI.
So, has anyone used a kit for a small block, and drilled out the intake spots on ay an edelbrock intake. Seems kinda simple, but if you have to have the computer reprogrammed anyway, why couldn't it be reprogrammed with all new parameters for the big block. Say a system from an LS1 or even an LTI. You need sensors,(MAF sensor, TPS, IAT, TIMING, and knock) and injectors with rails (injectors and rail could be custom made, even by using something other than a rail), Intake (edelbrock Performer with injector Bosses) and computer and wiring (off donor vehicle), and o2 sensors.
Am I way off base? Coould a small block computer be reprogrammed for a big block? Does the computer even know what size the engine is? It seems that the computer monitors the air/fuel mixture and learns at different Throttle positions and Air Temps what the injectors need to give in order for the mixture to be right. THen the knock sensor would retard or advance the timing based on what the knock is doing. AM I Crazy? Am I oversimplifying it?
Shawn

[haysonj]

The Edelbrock pro-flow is plug and play with everything included. It does cost around $2,000 and you get a device with it so you can do your own programming of the computer. I put one on my 383 and it works great.

[haysonj]

Originally Posted by haysonj

The Edelbrock pro-flow is plug and play with everything included. It does cost around $2,000 and you get a device with it so you can do your own programming of the computer. I put one on my 383 and it works great.

I'm wrong on that price it was $1000 Here is the link http://www.jegs.com/p/Edelbrock/984484/10002/-1

[clay68c10]

That's a pretty good price. Those weren't that cheap last time I looked.

[jorgensensc]

THat isn't for the whole kit. The whole hit runs over 2k. That is just the intake manifold and a couple of parts.
Come on people!! Lets be creative and come up with a way to use what we can find for cheap!
I know all those other systems are nice, but I'm looking for budget minded. Any ideas?
Shawn

[70 Suburban]

well When I was building inports I would tune the cars myself. there are lots of products out there. microtech. haltech. sds. aem. ect..... these you can adapt to a stock system and tune. some are almost self tuning. and some of these kits are about a grand. ebay even better.

[haysonj]

Originally Posted by jorgensensc

THat isn't for the whole kit. The whole hit runs over 2k. That is just the intake manifold and a couple of parts.
Come on people!! Lets be creative and come up with a way to use what we can find for cheap!
I know all those other systems are nice, but I'm looking for budget minded. Any ideas?
Shawn

I don't want to argue but that price is every thing including computer, wiring harness and all sensors. the only thing you have to do is weld the bung in the exhaust for the 02 sensor. I just installed one on my 383 and it is a port injection system. You may be able to find something in a wreaking yard for cheap but then you may end up with tuning problems if your cam is not matched to the system. Edelbrock asks for your cam specs and matches the chip for you and all you do is fine tune the air, fuel, and timing in the computer.

[haysonj]

Originally Posted by haysonj

I don't want to argue but that price is every thing including computer, wiring harness and all sensors. the only thing you have to do is weld the bung in the exhaust for the 02 sensor. I just installed one on my 383 and it is a port injection system. You may be able to find something in a wreaking yard for cheap but then you may end up with tuning problems if your cam is not matched to the system. Edelbrock asks for your cam specs and matches the chip for you and all you do is fine tune the air, fuel, and timing in the computer.

I'm wrong again I just went back and looked the entire kit cost $2400 so I guess its out for a cheap system

[Skirkpat]

Fast, cheap or reliable, ........ sorry you can only have two of those at once sir, LOL

[jorgensensc]

Originally Posted by Skirkpat

Fast, cheap or reliable, ........ sorry you can only have two of those at once sir, LOL

HAha! Your right, I will give up fast (installation wise) to get cheap and reliable. Does anyone know if any computer (ECM or PCM) can be reprogrammed for a big block? Are the parameters able to be changed enough? it seems like it would be simple enough. I don't quite have a handle on the Megasquirt stuff, but I've heard it is hard to program yourself and a lot of people have had trouble with it. At the end of the day I don't mind having a computer programmed or chipped for 4-500 if I can get all of the rest of the stuff from a Junkyard for fairly cheap.
What all is needed?
Injectors (8)
MAF or MAP (which is better?)
knock sensor
temp sensor
iat sensor
tps sensor
02 sensors (2 or 4) (or get a bypass kit)
timing sensor of some type? (is this necessary?)
Shawn

[Skirkpat]

My go fast friends modify an aluminum intake by drilling holes and welding bungs on them, then use a 45% aluminum elbow to the throttle body, weld a bung on the exaust for o2 sensor, and use a Ford EEIV ECM/aftermarket harness for the brain, as they are much easier to program and free if you want one. ( I know some guys on here are fuming, but in aftermarket EFI, and racing, the General lost a step when the 5.0 Fox bodys stepped up to the starting line in 1986) as a matter of fact now that we are talking about it, I just might have to try this on my Suburban here in the nexxt couple of weeks, I have almost everything I need in the basement...Hmmm glad you pressed this a litle farther.

Edelbrock Vitor JR. intake free, 350 Chevy free, 700r4 free, wiring harness free, EECIV ECM free, assorted sensors/ labor a couple hundred bucks, Watching Die Hard Chevy guys jaw drop in wonder when I tell them what runs it, PRICELESS . LOL

[LOW DOUGH]

good question. I am interested in seeing if you can come up with the stuff to do it from a yard. I know you should be able to.

Is a 6.0 a small block? Isn't there a 7.? out that is a big block? I know that would be changing everything though.

[smoky02]

6.0 and 7.0 are both small blocks. The 7.0 is just a stroked and bored 6.0

[Skirkpat]

This is a little info I dug up, the first one is a little fancy, but you should be able to do the same with stock stuff.

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...ion/index2.php

http://www.fordfans.cz/download/manual/eectch98.pdf

[Skirkpat]

The size of the engine is not relevent, except for air volume, which should be compensated for with a larger dia. throttle body? and fuel delivery, wich is a product of pulse length, and fuel pressure, all of that is programable in the ECM. and injector size.

The other way to look at this is the FI 460 Ford, It may have the properly sized injectors, and air delivery program built into the computer?

[clay68c10]

If you wanted to play with tuned port, the distributors are the same BBC(tbi) to SBC(tpi or tbi). I thought about doing this, but didn't want the hassle of figuring out a TPS that would work on top of a converted carb intake and having someone try to make a chip for something so far out of the stock parameters.

That and the 454 TBI system I got kind of fell into my lap for cheap. I really like it and it makes pretty good power even without a custom chip.

[70 Suburban]

Originally Posted by Skirkpat

The size of the engine is not relevant, except for air volume, which should be compensated for with a larger dia. throttle body? and fuel delivery, which is a product of pulse length, and fuel pressure, all of that is programmable in the ECM. and injector size.

The other way to look at this is the FI 460 Ford, It may have the properly sized injectors, and air delivery program built into the computer?

you are correct in a way. the dia. of the tb. is only part of it. a 90mm t/b can flow enough for 1200+hp/ a 65-70mm can do 500hp. so the tb is not near as much as an issue as it may seem. there are lots of things that will me more relevant. He will have to decide if he wants a batch fire of sequential. will he use the ecm for hit timing. or fuel only. a mass air is more tune frendly then a speed density. will he use an open/closed loop system. He can modify or tune an ecm for anything, but he will need to know his goals. what estimate his hp now. air flow and load. if he uses a stock throttle body system then he will only have two injectors. and he will have to use a 2 bank batch fire system. if he decides tune port then he will ahve to decide for batch or seqential.His location is also an issue a car needs to be tuned for his altitude to get the best out of his engine. I have built and tuned 400hp 4 cyl engines. that have documented 12 seconds on 1/4 with street tires. I have lots of info to share that can help you. but I recomend tuning your engine localy rather than a phone call to a company. there are two many variables to consider. you can buy a programable ecm or you may look into a rom tune from a local shop (in your state) they can reflash a stock ecm for you to use on your engine.

[centsless]

I have a TBI setup off of a 1990 454 V3500 pickup. It uses an adapter tohat bolts right to a 4 barrel intake. I have the whole setup minus the intake, knock sensor, and O2 sensor. PM me if interested and I will post it on the parts forum.