4 link

[johnboyon20s]

just wondering if yall think this setup ^ would hook up on the track with a 10 or 10.5 slick and 300-400hp on my 84 c10?

my thoughts are something simliar to this pic, parallel 4 link with the bag in front to get a fair amount of lift, my truck is gonna lay frame on 29 inch tall tires and im gonna have a 28 or 29 inch slick for the track.

any ideas or thoughts would be helpful thanks........

[onlyifihadachevy]

I wouldn't drive that on the street but its just me, because it looks like it wouldn't flex, without bending the links. Does it have track bar? It looks like it would hook,but there would be a lot of stress on the lower links at the bend or the place where they cut and welded it up. But I thikn more experenced people would give their opinions.

[onlyifihadachevy]

Wait it does need a track bar because the bottom link it holding t on the place too. I would really not drive it on the street.

[68 C-10 KID]

I don't believe your allowed air bags for a primary source of suspension in competition, on a NHRA track.

A coil spring w/ launch bag is OK.

[johnboyon20s]

Originally Posted by onlyifihadachevy

I wouldn't drive that on the street but its just me, because it looks like it wouldn't flex, without bending the links. Does it have track bar? It looks like it would hook,but there would be a lot of stress on the lower links at the bend or the place where they cut and welded it up. But I thikn more experenced people would give their opinions.

it has a watts link , but for my setup i plan on using a track bar, and also i dont plan on curving the bar mine are gonna be straight

[johnboyon20s]

Originally Posted by 68 C-10 KID

I don't believe your allowed air bags for a primary source of suspension in competition, on a NHRA track.

A coil spring w/ launch bag is OK.

i didnt know that u couldnt use bags as ur suspension thanks for the heads up, the track i go to is outlaw anyway,

[onlyifihadachevy]

IF it has a watt link, why waste the time to doing a watts and the lowers like that, when you could make a triangular 4link for less money and most likey less time. I understand wanting to be original, and be cool because you are the only one with it, but why not do something tried and tested. Maybe I am saying it on a baised base?

Do you have any more pic or a link to the build?

[Marv D]

I can see how that suspension worked in 'theory', but I'd like to know how it worked 'in the real world'. Obviously for nothing but to drop the frame into the weeds. But I think I see some MAJOR flaws in the design like there is not NEAR enough strength at the piviot upright on the frame to support that much leverage IMO. I'm no engineer but cutting the holes and stuffing the multiple pipes through is a 'look' thing and I KNOW it takes away from the strength of the 2x3 tubing. I bet this thing buckles like grandpa's knees at a strip club.

I know,, your not building 'that' suspension. But I look at that and all I can think is ohhhhh nooo this is going to be one of those "in retrospect, I probably shouldn't have......"

Scarey stuff right there!!!

[Twisted Minis]

Joel of Mindliss MetalFab built that. He did a good job I think.

A parallel 4-link will hold plenty of power. But it can be built simply with round tube. And like was said above, if you want to hit the strip, air ride is not allowed.

[72 SUPER10]

LOOKS GOOD FOR SURE ,, BUT IT ANT NO RACE SET UP FOR SURE, WONT WORK, FOR RACING. MY 2 CENTS

[1Bad62Pro/Street]

Thats a wicked looking setup!

This may be helpfull reading material:
Traction devices are only half the story. When used properly to transfer the torque action created in the differential into the chassis, other aspects of the car must also be enhanced. Since the chassis is the backbone of the car, the "action" of transferring power into it must not result in the "reaction" of twisting and flexing. Therefore, the chassis must be as rigid as possible. Frame Connectors are used to connect front and rear unibody subframes, effectively making them one piece. This eliminates unwanted flex in the chassis and prevents it from absorbing the power needed for acceleration. Solid Body Mounts, Solid Motor Mounts, Engine Torque Links, Engine Cradle Braces, Solid Transmission Mounts and Strut Tower Braces contribute to forming a rigid structure and help eliminate unwanted twisting and power loss. Large-diameter Tubular Control Arms, which are much stronger than stock units, also add rigidity, eliminate flex and help direct power to the ground. Finally, Roll Bars and Roll Cages help make the chassis and body solid while providing an extra measure of safety.
The suspension also contributes to overall performance. It serves as a flexible connection to the track, providing mechanical and hydraulic damping to control unwanted body and chassis movements. The suspension must remain flexible enough to offer a sufficient level of comfort and safety, while contributing to traction when subjected to sudden acceleration. Installation of Competition Engineering’s Adjustable Drag Race Shocks is one of the first steps taken to help stabilize suspension movement. In race applications, the front shocks play a dual role. When the front end lifts, they extend freely to increase weight transfer. When the front end begins to lower, these same shocks provide resistance to maximize the duration of weight transfer. Complementing the action of the shocks are Front Drag Springs, specially engineered for each application to hold a great amount of stored energy for instant weight transfer. Stabilizer Bars are used in conjunction with both Ladder Bars and 4-Links. They center the rear axle housing within the chassis. This prevents lateral movement between the body and the suspension, which helps to provide high speed stability.
http://www.competitionengineering.co...Basics_324.pdf

[joeys66pickup]

is that thing a dually? hell more tires HAS to hook better right? hahhaa jesus i have never seen anything like that but Marv's right aint no world like the real,Test it and then tweak it

[1Bad62Pro/Street]

Anymore pictures of that set up?
I'm not sure it's appropriate for Drag Racing.
It maybe for just low rider setups.

http://www.crazytalkcustoms.com/curr...cts-dually.htm


Rear Suspension Tech Guide

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...imulation.html

http://site.streetissuecustoms.com/4linkFAQ.html

[KQQL IT]

Leaf springs and cal-trac bars are running in the 7's on 10.5s

[Mindliss Metalfab]

Originally Posted by Marv D

I'm no engineer but cutting the holes and stuffing the multiple pipes through is a 'look' thing and I KNOW it takes away from the strength of the 2x3 tubing

I suppose its a good thing I am then eh?

Anyways there are a few reasons for using all the holes/tubing in the parts aside from looks. The backhalf is not constructed from 2x3 or 2x4 tube, its actually laser cut 1/4" plate that has been boxed and welded. The tubes help to align the inner and out panels. because you are connecting the side profiles, there is less chance for the frame to distort when welding all the edges solid.

As for the holes making it weaker, well the tubes are all fully welded, its not just holes cut through plate. Also the weight of the truck is supported at the air bags which are very close to the cab. So the majority of the backhalf will only be supporting the fuel cell and box weight.

The pivot points are quite rigid when everything is bolted together. The gussets are 3/8 thick.


I don't foresee any issues with the lower links buckling from the weight of the truck. They are reinforced internally so they are essentially 3/8" thick.


The suspension actually performs very well. Looking at it everyone assumes it would need a tremendous amount of pressure. Truthfully the watts link maxes out at about 10" of travel and only about 70 psi is needed to max it out (with no box). Its definitely not designed for towing or anything like that but this truck is being built as a weekend driver/show truck and with the custom valved bilstein 7100s going in the back it should ride quite nice.


I have a few more pics on my site and will start updating again soon once i start on the shock install.
http://www.mindlissmetal.com/gallery/current-projects/

[ripdog28]

Simple mechanics like us can tell you that those air bags have a ton of pressure on them. Ever use a sea saw? well the long end increases the weight so the bed and battery put more pressure on the pivot then they you may think.

[Super73]

Can you say what your leverage ratio is? I'm sure you know this, but your weight each bag is seeing is based on:

Sprung weight * Leverage ratio / 2

So let's take my truck for instance. I have right about 1,350 sprung weight on my rear axle at my current ride height. Where the factory spring is located on a 60-72 makes a leverage ratio of 1.2..

1,350 * 1.2 / 2 = 810lbs each spring.

Now, lets take that and figure your running a 4-1 arm. With a leverage ratio of 4-1 it would look like this.

1,350 * 4 / 2 = 2,700lbs each bag.

I don't doubt your suspension works well for some simple street driving and car shows. You do nice work. I would however be concerned using for drag racing. Here is why..

What is keeping your upper control are from wanting to wrap up under a hard launch with axle wrap? There is not gusset tying it back to the frame front or rear. As you launch a vehicle hard on a sticky track, the axle wants to raise the pinion upand around to the back. It's going to put stress on that upper control arm. An additional gusset would help a lot.

Another issue with it for drag racing, is your instant center of gravity is based on where the upper and lower control arm meet in a side view. IE they never will converge because they are perfectly parallel, putting your ICG at infinity. The rear is always going to want to squat under a hard launch. The lower it is, the harder it's going to squat because your ICG is pointed down. If you raise the truck you might be able to get the infinity ICG to pass through or above the true center of gravity which will induce antisquat, planting the tires harder. But i don't see there being enough angle in the upper and lower control arms to do so. And, if they do, your going to be sky high in the rear. Perhaps making the UCA and LCA angle towards each other so the do converge would help. Also perhaps raising their mounting points to build some antisquat ability in for chassis tuning would be a benifit.

One other thing i might want to know is, what happens to pinion angle hen the truck is raised/lowered? That's going to have some affect on things when drag racing..


Now, please don't take this constructional criticism as I'm bashing your work, because I'm not.. The question was, "just wondering if yall think this setup ^ would hook up on the track with a 10 or 10.5 slick and 300-400hp on my 84 c10?" I think for it's intended puropse, it's probably great, but for a truck that is going to be subject to some serious sticky launch areas and getting beat on, with out some changes, I would be leary of it.

[Mindliss Metalfab]

I definitely never said the suspension would work well for drag racing. It was not designed with that in mind at all.

To address some of the other issues though, the link bars are not parrallel to each other, the uppers angle down slightly. The instant center is about mid point on the front bumper of the truck.


Because the bars are so long and all the upper and lower pivot points are inline, pinion change is pretty much non existent which is what i was going for with a 10" of useable travel before the watts maxes out.

I'm sure there is more force on the bags than a conventional setup but like I said, i can max out the suspension at 70 psi so it cant be THAT bad.

[Super73]

So the ICG is mid point on the bumper at what ride height? it's going to change aired up or aired down.

What's the leverage ratio on the arm? I can give you some quick general figures from 1000lbs to 2000lbs sprung weight. Just for your knowledge. just to make sure your not overloading the bags (Your probably not, but always good to know how much head room you have if customers ask). How many square inches does the plate the bag is attached to cover? You could some what reverse the figures and figure out what your sprung weight is based on psi..

I think with just a few changes, this set up could work decently on a dragstrip. Johnboyon20's might be able to use it with some success for an all around set up if your willing to make a few adjustments. I have a buddy that also wants to bag his 64 yet race it. There might be a market for a Hi-performance bag set up.

[Marv D]

Originally Posted by Mindliss Metalfab

I suppose its a good thing I am then eh? ........

Joel I think we are of simply two different mindsets, and I surely didn't intend to offend. I (and Super73) are both thinking of throwing 500, 600 or 800 HP at the chassis, moving a 3500+ pound tub of bricks forward, drive straight and not wheelstand too bad. As you said, it isn't designed for that and was wrong of me to assume anything different. My son is into the "bagged, drop it in the weeds every time you stop" look with his S-10 and I can see he is going to be plenty oggle-eyed with the creation.

Like I said, no offense intended, I was just looking at things from the wrong perspective.

[Mindliss Metalfab]

No worries guys. Like I said this truck was designed to turn heads, get some recognition for my business (custom laser cutting hence every single chassis component is lasered and welded instead of using standard box or DOM tube). Its in no way designed to race, or even haul. This customer has a big 4 x 4 diesel ram thats coming in for air shortly for his hauling and daily driving use. This trucks just a weekend toy and will perform fine as such.

Instant center at mid point front bumper was set at a 'ride height' of 5" frame/body clearance.

Anyways I'll be happy to post up some more pics as I will be starting on shocks and a bed floor come january. Once the bed floor is done I'll have a better idea of the weight as well to know if the RE7s out back are going to cut it but I don't forsee any issues.

[bgstillrocks]

Metal, that is the most 'kickin' setup I've ever seen. I LOVE it. great work. wish I had the ready cash for you to build my setup......maybe someday...........once again, thumbs up!!