egr 17087196 what replacement to use or none?

[benoit454]

My egr valve is junk and I see chevytech and others saying use gm stuff only or delphi or ac delco so does anyone know those numbers for me to replace mine? It's on my 88 k1500 and it's a 350tbi with auto.

I really wanted to use the bwd from advance due to it being like $51 bucks because I hate to even dump that much cash into an egr valve. I don't want to loose any performance or power, or much milega e really, but it's got a bad cold idle anymore, and I know the egr is shot, won't hold vac. at all. I took it off and cleaned it and it made it worse.

If I leave it off because I don't want/can't afford the gm prices it's gonna throw a check engine light constantly I guess, and maybe have spark knock and retard the timing, but is it gonna fix the cold idle bad running if I put on a block off? I know leaving the old one on aint gonna help it. Even with the egr vac. line plugged at the back of the vac. bleed solenoid it runs rough on cold idle.

[scotts62]

Im not sure of the number but sure someone will chime in, when i needed one i went to the local pull a part and found a good one, they are usually really reasonable used. You can check them by taking the hose off the egr and push the diaphram up and hold your finger over the hole that the hose was on and if the diaphram goes down slow then you need to find another, it should hold it up as long as you have the hole plugged and soon as you let go it should bleed out. Home this helps a bit.

[Metal]

I have had good luck with bwd..The only problem I had was caused by me..Carb cleaner and the tps on my T-bird did not mix..They have a killer warranty and it was replaced for free....

[Metal]

O'Reilly's has a bwd with LLW...

O and it is $35

You have to make sure you get the right one!!!There are two types of egr's...

[scotts62]

I and others a know of have had problems with the re-pop egrs, i personally would find a good used one and think you will have better luck but its your choice.

[Little Red Truck Tha]

We have many fine people out there trying to help us but Chevy Tech really nailed an EGR problem for me that a local repair shop could not correctly diagnose.

Thanks CT! We are fortunate to have you as a consultant.

Bob

(The Little Red Truck That Could)

'92 Chevy C3500
7.4L
158,000 tow miles WAAAY over gross.

[scotts62]

I agree, he really knows his stuff. Maybe he will chime in and set us straight

[ChevyTech]

The EGR should not affect the Idle, especially when cold.
There should never be vacuum getting to the EGR at Idle.
If vacuum gets to the EGR at idle, there is another problem with the system.

If the EGR is stuck open, or the spring is so rusted away that the valve stays open, then the EGR valve could affect the cold idle.

My guess is that the vehicle has another problem.


Use the old number to find the replacement. Check out how this site shows several brands that will fit, and uses the old number for reference.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us


I just google the part number and start looking.
http://www.google.com/search?q=17087...n&start=0&sa=N

If you read in my old posts, which it looks like you have, I would use an OEM replacement part. This is a negative backpressure EGR valve that you need for your truck, and the TBI trucks are very picky about the operation of the negative backpressure EGR valves.

And if you do decide to use an aftermarket replacement EGR valve with an orifice you need to choose, make sure you select the correct orifice to install. I will not ever use these types of replacement EGR valves.

Thank you for the kind words Little Red Truck & Scotts

[benoit454]

Yea that's what I heard was that it could be stuck open and that's what i figured. It all started with a knock sensor code not getting signal to the esc, 42 or 43 I forget, and I started checking things. I found 2 vac. leaks both going to the egr one in the line going to the solenoid, the other off the solenoid to the egr. I fixed those and checked the egr and it wouldn't hold any vac. couldn't even pull vac. on it. It also doesn't pull the idle down while the truck runs and you pull up on it by hand. So I ordered a standard motor products from amazon and it won't fit, mine has a stub on the bottom of it and this one doesn't and requires the washer put in place and my factory number was not on the list.
So I was going to block it off with a plate but was told it throw a code all the time. I didn't thnk it was ever going to do this because originall ever since I built the motor the bleed part of the solenoid was blocked off by me, never throw a code, then one day when I discovered the egr bad I plugged it's vac. line after the solenoid, drove to work and home, no egr code, was on the highway doing over 75 sometimes, at least 10 miles or so, no egr code, drove around town with the egr solenoid unplugged by accident, no code, but yesterday with the egr line and bleed line plugged, all the way to work and almost all the way home nothing, then bam check engine, after a bump, code 32 egr.

Now more info, I had this lil cough on cold start out the exhaust like slight popping, sounded like a lil cough almost to me, just like puutt, putt out the pipes, it stopped once warm, except for once up to temp. in gear, stoppping, had a very rough miss, only happened once a minute or so but felt as if somebody had hit you or kicked a tire. Well with the egr line plugged that stopped, and the egr bleed was blocked too. The cold cough was still there though. The egr I took off to replace and found out I had the wrong new one, so I cleaned the gunk off the bottom of mine, and when I put it back on, ever since it's had worse cold idle, more popping/coughing and now you an feel it miss or stumble.

One last detail, when I first built it, it would not run at zero on timing it would start and rev, but driving would do 40 mph floored, nothing more, and seemd to be hot, alot of heat coming off the motor and exhaust, but wasn't hot via the temp. gauge. I advanced it and it's been running that way since, so riddle me this batman LOL, would the egr stuck open I'd gues and 2 vac. leaks(basically 3 because the egr was hooked up thus once open would be a vac. leak correct?) well i think those would cause me to have to advance timing to try and get power, the vac. leaks causing it to be lean, and egr leaking plus stuck open dumping exhaust I guess back in and casuing the cold idle problems I see? Does it sound possible and something to check? I think if I replace an egr valve and now that the vac. leaks fixed, I may need to bump it back down.

My concern was what problems ppl had with the aftermarket egrs? I don't want to replace it everytime I turn around nor do I want it to keep the problems it has already.
I would find one at the junkyard but none around me with any 88-98 trucks if there is they are junked.

As for google that's what i did and came up with 2 acdelco numbers...
2145074

2141432

both from rockauto and replace the 17087196 i got on it from factory.

[benoit454]

metal, that be a good one but it's for vehicles over 8500gvw

[ChevyTech]

I fixed those and checked the egr and it wouldn't hold any vac. couldn't even pull vac. on it.

Your truck has a negative backpressure EGR valve which can only be tested with a hand vacuum pump when the engine is NOT running. If it will not hold vacuum with the engine off, when vacuum is applied directly to the EGR valve, then the valve is bad.

It also doesn't pull the idle down while the truck runs and you pull up on it by hand.

Then the EGR is plugged with carbon, or there is another problem like plugged passages in the manifold or head.

As far as the timing issues, the outer ring on the front crank pulley has rubber in it, and it could have slipped making the timing line in the wrong position. Or the wrong timing tab is on the engine, or the wrong front pulley.

Did you unplug the set timing wire when you set the timing?

You swapped the engine in this truck right?
It could have mismatched timing mark parts.
It could have the wrong intake gaskets in it blocking the EGR passage.

If the truck pings because the EGR does not work, then the knock sensor will detect the pinging, and the timing will be retarded by the system in its attempt to stop the pinging.

My guess it the truck has more then one problem, and that is making it harder to figure out what the problem is.

[Metal]

I have one on my 92 305 parts truck.. Will that work????

[scotts62]

If i had a good used OEM one ill just send it to you but ill have to look around the shop when i go out there.

[benoit454]

metal it might work what's the number on it? might be worth trying.

chevytech, it doesn't ping, at all it's a miss like a cough or sputter, not a ping or spark knock.

I did NOT change the engine in it, I think it was done before me, but not sure. I only rebuilt it and reused everything that came on it.

I checked the egr for vac. with my hand pump with the engine off, I pulled it up by hand with it running.

When I set timing the est connector was unhooked, it's under the fuse cover PS. Truck off, unhook, start, set timing, shut off, plug in, unhook battery, hook up and start.

As for timing tabs and what not I'd guess they are right, I'm happy with it's timing, but wondered if it's magnifying this problem or casuing it being too far advanced, but it never pings or spark knocks.

The bottom of the egr where the pintle is was definately plugged up with junk, i cleaned it out and sprayed it with some air intake cleaner. After that is when I noticed the rougher idle.

As for gaskets I bought them to fit the truck and for heads and intake, I can't rule it completely out but I did have them off and cleaned them.

[Metal]

Look like this????

[benoit454]

yessir and that number on rockauto's site for an ac delco lists the same replacement as my number and so does the wells one, same part no. replacement, only difference is yours end in 4 mine a 6 but both numbers have the same replacement, so it should be perfect to try on mine.

[ChevyTech]

yessir and that number on rockauto's site for an ac delco lists the same replacement as my number and so does the wells one, same part no. replacement, only difference is yours end in 4 mine a 6 but both numbers have the same replacement, so it should be perfect to try on mine.

I looked at the wells site yesterday. Go back to the wells site and notice that the wells EGR valve uses an orifice that you install to make it match our vehicle. The 17087196 and the 17087194 use a different orifice, meaning a different flow rate. I don’t know which one has the more flow then the other one.

If I had the other number I would try it to see if I could get by with it. That being said this vehicle has other problems.

chevytech, it doesn't ping, at all it's a miss like a cough or sputter, not a ping or spark knock.

If it does not ping with the EGR not working there is a good chance it has one of the following problems:
Running to rich
Electronic spark timing issues/ retarded timing due to knock counts/ or base timing issue
Engine temp running to cold.
The ECM is running in open loop or a backup mode because of problems that exist.

[benoit454]

I don't know what it's doing but if I keep hearing and finding out it has more issues, it's gonna get sold. this emissions junk is BS, I'll take a carb anyday.

I was told the orrifices are a 42 and 44, I think mines 44 and the 194 one is 42, and guy on here, metal was talking about his, and that's what his is the 194 egr, would one work on my truck or no?

[benoit454]

well i backed off the time a tad and it seemed to help smooth it out and get rid of that lil popping/coughing it was when cold.

[ChevLoRay]

Timing seems to be one issue that you might want to resolve.

If the TDC mark on your balancer is questionable, as to placement, you might want to consider knowing for sure.

You could do the manual "find" by physically knowing that No. 1 is at TDC, AND that it is ready to fire (both valves closed) and then looking at the mark to see where it is in reference to your indicator tab. You would also want to look at the rotor and see which plug lead it was pointing at, but that would just be for your own curiosity.

Like ChevyTech said above, the harmonic balancer is composed of two pieces with a rubber section between them. It's that rubber separator that allows for the dampening effect of the balancer. The outer piece will, over time, slip enough to be a problem if you rely on it to be accurate. The slippage doesn't keep the balancer from working until the rubber deteriorates enough that the balancer starts making a racket, most noticeably at idle (clanking sound).

Since you said you had backed off the timing and there was some change in your engine, it might not be a bad idea to check out the damper.

As far as selling your truck because it might have other problems, it doesn't really make sense to give up on it at this time. It isn't a terminal problem, but one that will become more evident and easier to solve if you work on it one problem at a time.....like eating an elephant.

[benoit454]

Well it makes me mad because I don't know alot about tbi nor do I have alot of electrical equipment to test things, basically all I have is a tach, dwell, and test light. I like learning and know but I have a very tight budget and all I've dumped into it already makes me mad not to be right. I know it's worth it and all, I've already put a brand new trans. new internals in the motor, everything, cam, lifters, timing set, oil pump, bearings, rings, new dist, cap, rotor, coil, wires , plugs, o2, basically complete rebuild and tune up.

As for the balancer after thinking of it I'm pretty sure when I built the motor and set the no.1 tdc all the way up and valves shut, timing marks lined up, and installed the balancer and timing tab there were spot on zero. I know it's possible it slipped after I got it back together, but when I said I set it back, I had it at zero, one the tab and baancer at first, tried the truck, and it wouldn;'t run over 40 mph and was floored, but the motor was not revved up that much either to the floor. So I advanced the timing, by ear, no light, no idea how far it was, and it had alot of power, ran good, no spark knock, but had a miss at idle and would stall when up to temp switching between gears. So one day i tried to advance it more when it was warmed up, it made it worse advaning it further, so I set it back some then and it helped a lil but I had to set it back more yesterday to clear the miss at idle. So I'm gonna have to make sure it aint down on power and will still run past 40 mph. So should take it out for a spin maybe today or tmorrow to see if the timing is ok as far as power, and make sure it improved the idle.

[benoit454]

well maybe retarding it didn't help anything, no test drive but I started it up today was still having the miss on idle again. I'll have to get a chance to check it better and tighten the dist. down after I turn it to make sure it's not turning b y itself after I set it.

[ChevyTech]

The ECM can stay in control if the engine has an occasional misfire. But if the engine is consistently misfiring on one or more cylinders at idle the ECM will lose control of the fuel mixture and will go way to rich.

The misfires it will cause it to go rich when in closed loop (engine warm computer using O2 sensor).

The O2 sensor senses oxygen, NOT burnt fuel. When the engine misfires, oxygen gets through the misfiring cylinder without getting burned. The computer detects the high oxygen level in the exhaust. With the “feedback” system it adds more fuel because a lean mixture does not burn all the oxygen so the system thinks the mixture is to lean.

If the plugs get dirty from the misfire condition, the extra fuel quickly makes the miss worse, and the system will go very rich.

This could be way it does not ping without the EGR working. It won't ping because it is dumping in so much fuel. This is not what you want to do to an engine during break-in.

You must get the engine running on all cylinders all of the time.

Do you think it is possible that you have one valve to tight?

An exhaust leak ahead of, or close to, the O2 sensor can also cause it to go rich in closed loop.

[benoit454]

well the engine should be broke in now it's been in there a year and driven since oct. last year.

As for misfires, anything off idle and it's perfect, no miss, no chugging or surging just smooth as glass and runs great. Or it did with the timing advanced, not sure about now but I'll know this evening my dad took it to work. As for plugs I had checked them before when it was doing the popping junk worse and they were lean, barely grey, more white then anything and no smoke.

I thought last night it sounded rough again on start up but this morning it sounded ok, gonna have to check it out tonight, if I got time.

I don't think there could be much wrong with this thing with all the new stuff and how it runs good, except for maybe a sensor, or ecm itself, which I hope not. The fuel spray looks good, and it got some complete fuel system cleaner ran thru it first tank, and we usually run it low like down to 1/4 or 1/8 and then fill it back up, and run middle grade octane like 89 i think, and fuel pressure running at the filter is right on 12.5-13, new fuel filter as well and it's ac delco plugs.

Now next question thermostat, would a cold temp be causing problems? Like mentioned? if so it's possible because I don't know what temp is in it. When the timing was advanced it would get up to temp basically no matter the outside temp., when I backed the timing off and it was cold in the mornings like 40 degrees or so it would not get up to temp. on the gauge, mech. one in the ds head, it stayed at like 160 or less, and when warm usually ran more towards 180-195 I forget the exact number. Oil pressure runs good as well, idle warm like 20 or so, maybe 15 and when it's cold it's like 50-60 and while driving stays like 40-60 depending on how much throttle you give it.

One other piece of info the oil pressure sending unit for the fuel pump circuit is gone, the plugin is just hanging there, and the sending unit for the dash the wire is skinned and grounded, or hanging whichever makes it stays all the way up in the dash because dash reads maxxed out all the time, I got a mech. oil pressure in the block behind the dist.

oh and exhaust leaks, shuldn't be any, made sure the headers were tight over the weekend and no leaks that can be heard or felt.

As for valves, I can't rule that one out and I do plan on doing a running valve adjustment soon. I set them all when the engine was new before it went in by the book, doing half of them, forget which ones, at no. tdc then rotate and do the other half. I went half turn past feeling some drag on the pushrods, but I do plan to do another adjustment with it running.

When I put the headers on I had all the plugs out and they all loooked the same, no differences in them as far as one being black or whiter.

Definately keep the info coming guys, I'm getting there eventually, thanks to everyone and esp. chevytech. I think you helped me figure out the hot wire issues going to the dist. block on this truck didn;t ya? with the ole jumper cable trick? That worked but a week later started back up and found out it was the battery the whole time, lost power on warm refires at the post.

My entire goal is to get this to not stall at all ever going from one gear to another and get the miss out if I can. Although it doesn't stall near as much with the timing retarded, only done it once since then.

[benoit454]

old man says it runs good, said he can run 65 going up hill on the highway and still keep climbing, which it done that before setting the timing back. He said it didn't stall on him or run rough, but it did kinda idle rough on the cold start this morning as it did me yesterday.

For right now I got the egr blocked off with a plate under it and NO check engine light or code, the vac. line for it is plugged off as well.

I might get to check it out this afternoon or tomorrow maybe some more to see about the idle quality and such. As long as it doesn't stall or run to rough I'm happy with it and the egr can stay blocked off as far as I'm concerned, although I do have another egr coming a 194 instead of my 196 that's bad. So if I keep getting or ever get a check engine light I'll put the other egr on it I guess. If it keeps running good I may look into a chip and have the egr removed and maybe it'll bump up the power too. I'll keep everyone informed later tonight or one day this week or weekend as to how it's doing.