Switching my sm465 to a nv4500 in a 1969 Chevy C20

[treveiger]

I've looked around and havent been able to find the information i need. Ive never messed with a tranny swap or anything like that and i was wondering what would i all need to do the swap(parts, what will work and what wont). What kind of nv4500 should i look for year, model, and what trucks would they be in. Has anybody ever swaped one like this, do you have a thread or can tell me how an what i will all need? Ive also hears i need to switch to a hydro clutch is this true? how hard is it? By the way my truck is 2wd.
Thanks.

[GMCBubba]

i just subscribed to this thread because i'm interested in a similar conversion. check out this website: http://advanceadapters.com/product/2225/712576.html

i think this adapter eliminates the need to use hydraulic clutch. my understanding from previous reading is that the conversion (at least for me since i only have 2wd) is pretty straightforward...

[treveiger]

Ya ive been trying to find out which tranny i want an this seems like the best deal for the price an have searched for hours but i must be doing something wrong lol. Are you thinking about the nv4500? I saw that from AA but im going to call them just to make sure, i dont want to switch to hydro clutch. When i do this conversion i will have a thread all about it an pictures an even a video once i know what i all need lol.

[treveiger]

I found something about the tranny but not exactly what i need but its a start.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...00+swap:chevy:

[68C15]

search around here for NV4500. I know a guy or 2 have done it. you will be OK with your high hump floor. why not go with hydraulic? if you are scared of the bleeding I can help.

have you checked at nordstrom's for a trans?

BTW, are your wheel studs 9/16"? want some long chrome nuts?

also, here is the link I was telling you about.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/multirpmcalc.html

[treveiger]

I checked nordstroms for a tranny from a 93-95 chevy 2500 and they had a rebuilt one for 1050 with a 12 month warrenty. Im not sure what year of tranny would be the best and easiest, im going to call a place today and see if they have a kit for it and how much they are. Are the people that have done the swaps around here and are there truck 2wd? I just dont know much about hydro cltuches and the manual clutch seems more of my taste lol. Im not sure the bolt size of the tires.
Thanks

[raycow]

Originally Posted by GMCBubba

check out this website: http://advanceadapters.com/product/2225/712576.html

i think this adapter eliminates the need to use hydraulic clutch. my understanding from previous reading is that the conversion (at least for me since i only have 2wd) is pretty straightforward...

Yes, you can do it that way, but IMO a better solution is to use a Dodge NV4500 with this adapter
http://advanceadapters.com/product/2202/712550.html

This way, you get to keep your stock clutch linkage, starter, AND bellhousing mounts.

Ray

[treveiger]

Originally Posted by raycow

Yes, you can do it that way, but IMO a better solution is to use a Dodge NV4500 with this adapter
http://advanceadapters.com/product/2202/712550.html

This way, you get to keep your stock clutch linkage, starter, AND bellhousing mounts.

Ray

Wouldnt that bring the tranny back a few inches? I dont understand how a adapter like that would hook up without problems. With the new bellhousing wouldnt you be able to keep your stock clutch linkage, and starter?

[Palf70Step]

I'v thought about this in the past. I'll have to watch it more.

[treveiger]

can you use a stock crossmember of a sm465 an just move it back a few inches? Or would i need to completely build a new one or are there ones i can buy that will work?
Thanks.

[raycow]

Originally Posted by treveiger

Wouldnt that bring the tranny back a few inches? I dont understand how a adapter like that would hook up without problems. With the new bellhousing wouldnt you be able to keep your stock clutch linkage, and starter?

That plate is about 1" thick, which is the length difference between the Mopar and GM input shafts. It just bolts between the transmission and your stock bellhousing. That only other mod you would need to do besides the driveshaft is to enlarge the hole for the shifter.

The aftermarket bellhousing DOES NOT have any provision for the stock truck crossmember mounts or for mounting your stock starter on it. You would have to use a block-mounted starter, with all of its potential (and actual) problems. I believe that bell was actually intended for GM engine swaps into jeeps, and I don't know if it will work with the stock GM truck fork.

Ray

[treveiger]

Originally Posted by raycow

That plate is about 1" thick, which is the length difference between the Mopar and GM input shafts. It just bolts between the transmission and your stock bellhousing. That only other mod you would need to do besides the driveshaft is to enlarge the hole for the shifter.

The aftermarket bellhousing DOES NOT have any provision for the stock truck crossmember mounts or for mounting your stock starter on it. You would have to use a block-mounted starter, with all of its potential (and actual) problems. I believe that bell was actually intended for GM engine swaps into jeeps, and I don't know if it will work with the stock GM truck fork.

Ray

So what year of dodge tranny should i look for? Would they hook up to my mechanical speedometer without switching anything? Is there anything i need to keep in mind with doing this swap? I think im going to go with the dodge nv4500 an use the adapter plate you recomended, its cheaper an looks easier to install lol. Would i have to move or modify the transmission crossmember with this swap, and if so what would i need to do? Thanks Ray i really appreciate all the help with me looking for a tranny with overdrive.
Thank you everyone.

[RichardJ]

treveiger, You need to do a search on the different versions of the NV4500. The first Chevy versions used a Chevy bolt pattern before switching to the Dodge bolt pattern. The first Chevy versions had a lower 1st gear (Granny low). The offroad guys like that one. The Dodge used a taller 1st gear which is better for the street.
I can't find the info, but I think the early Dodge units had a cable speedometer. The others used an electronic VSS.
You have a SM465 with cast iron bell that has the rear(side) mounts? That is what the 3/4" spacer/adapter is intended for. The bell already has the 5 1/8" retainer hole.

Here is some info.
http://www.offroaders.com/directory/products/NV4500.htm

[72smoker]

I am in the prosses of doing a cummins/2 wd swap into a my 72 c-20 and I know that the dodge cummins 4500 is more stout than the gas chevy/ dodge 4500. I had to convert mine to the bigger input and output shafts. I think that you might be able to take the block adapter plate and bell housing from a newer chevy and make it work, depending on the motor. I'll have to let you know how the whole mouting for the hydro set-up works vs the manual clutch. I think that it will be easier to mount and fab than the manual clutch setup. I know that in the diesel's they use the hydro set up because of the force that it takes to push the chutch in. I eaven had to upgrade the hydro systume for the dd clutch that I'm running. I dont think that the cross member will work with the nv4500 either, it looks to high to me? Don't know if I helped.

[JJorgensen52]

I'm in the middle of collecting parts for this swap, hopefully doing it next week in my '69 K10. I am using the AA adapter listed above with the mechanical fork (the fork included is a GM part, the only jeep component is the rubber boot), I am switching to a block mounted starter, and I'm going to be using the original cross-member from the '93 truck I pulled all the parts out of.

Just for some clarification:

There are 3 different varieties of NV4500's:
1. Early GM (late '92 - early '95) - These use a GM specific bolt pattern, external hydraulic clutch slave and have a 6.34 1st and Reverse. This is closest to the SM465, with a 6.55 first. Pilot is .590, 10 spline input shaft and a 6 5/8" stickout (as all GM trannies are). The stock GM bell housing for this uses a passenger's side clutch fork.

2. Late GM ('95+) - These use the same bolt pattern as Dodge, and have a 5.61 1st and Reverse. Same specs otherwise.

3. Dodge - These all have the Dodge bolt pattern, a 5.61 1st / Reverse and have a 10 spline input with a 7 1/4" stickout.

All 3 types have the large diameter 5 1/8" bearing retainer. Around '95, both types switched from a single piece top cover with shifter pinned in to a flat top cover with a bolt on shifter. The GM and Dodge top covers are different.

I can't speak to the 2wd guys (and the iron bellhousing mounts), but I am using the AA bellhousing for early GM NV4500 to Gen I small block. This suits me fine, and as long as you use an Iron nose heavy duty Delco / GM starter (GM part #88863072) block-mounting is not an issue. This uses odd-ball 3 5/8" starter bolts (GM part #3733289).

For the GM NV4500's, the starter is ~6" back from the SM465's. With an adapter plate, you're looking at almost a 7" offset. The GM NV4500 always came mated to an aluminum bellhousing (as did every truck tranny after about '76, I believe). As mentioned above, as long as you use a good quality iron-nose starter, the starter alignment isn't an issue, so unless those rear mounts are critical I would not use the adapter plate, myself.

For 4x4 trucks:
There are various adapters available but all the NV4500's were originally linked to NP241 transfer cases, with a 6" circular bolt pattern common to late model GM's. The Dodge case has a slightly different orientation but either will work.

The other advantage to a Dodge case is the availability of a cast-iron tail housing, which allows for the use of heavy-duty (meaning heavy weight) transfer cases.

Also, there is a heavy duty Dodge version (diesel as mentioned above) which has a bigger input/output shaft and uses an iron top cover. It's not even close to necessary for a regular 1/2 or 3/4 ton truck unless you're going to be doing some crazy wheeling or heavy hauling. The NV4500 (just like the SM465) is way overbuilt and has no trouble handling power.

[raycow]

Originally Posted by treveiger

So what year of dodge tranny should i look for? Would they hook up to my mechanical speedometer without switching anything? Is there anything i need to keep in mind with doing this swap?

It needs to be an early one to be sure of getting a mechanical speedo drive. I don't know what year the drive changed, but you can tell by looking at it. You want to see a threaded fitting that the cable screws onto. The threads are the same as GM, so your stock cable will screw on without needing any kind of adapter.

Also, check the input shaft spline to make sure it measures 1-1/8. There is a heavy duty version with a 1-1/4" spline that is more difficult to adapt.

Originally Posted by treveiger

Would i have to move or modify the transmission crossmember with this swap, and if so what would i need to do?

If you have a stock 69 2WD truck, it has no transmission crossmember as such. The crossmember is under the bellhousing. Since this adapter lets you keep your stock bellhousing, the crossmember stays where it is now. That's a major reason I prefer the plate type adapter over the full bellhousing adapter.

Ray

[treveiger]

Originally Posted by JJorgensen52

I'm in the middle of collecting parts for this swap, hopefully doing it next week in my '69 K10. I am using the AA adapter listed above with the mechanical fork (the fork included is a GM part, the only jeep component is the rubber boot), I am switching to a block mounted starter, and I'm going to be using the original cross-member from the '93 truck I pulled all the parts out of.

Just for some clarification:

There are 3 different varieties of NV4500's:
1. Early GM (late '92 - early '95) - These use a GM specific bolt pattern, external hydraulic clutch slave and have a 6.34 1st and Reverse. This is closest to the SM465, with a 6.55 first. Pilot is .590, 10 spline input shaft and a 6 5/8" stickout (as all GM trannies are). The stock GM bell housing for this uses a passenger's side clutch fork.

2. Late GM ('95+) - These use the same bolt pattern as Dodge, and have a 5.61 1st and Reverse. Same specs otherwise.

3. Dodge - These all have the Dodge bolt pattern, a 5.61 1st / Reverse and have a 10 spline input with a 7 1/4" stickout.

All 3 types have the large diameter 5 1/8" bearing retainer. Around '95, both types switched from a single piece top cover with shifter pinned in to a flat top cover with a bolt on shifter. The GM and Dodge top covers are different.

I can't speak to the 2wd guys (and the iron bellhousing mounts), but I am using the AA bellhousing for early GM NV4500 to Gen I small block. This suits me fine, and as long as you use an Iron nose heavy duty Delco / GM starter (GM part #88863072) block-mounting is not an issue. This uses odd-ball 3 5/8" starter bolts (GM part #3733289).

For the GM NV4500's, the starter is ~6" back from the SM465's. With an adapter plate, you're looking at almost a 7" offset. The GM NV4500 always came mated to an aluminum bellhousing (as did every truck tranny after about '76, I believe). As mentioned above, as long as you use a good quality iron-nose starter, the starter alignment isn't an issue, so unless those rear mounts are critical I would not use the adapter plate, myself.

For 4x4 trucks:
There are various adapters available but all the NV4500's were originally linked to NP241 transfer cases, with a 6" circular bolt pattern common to late model GM's. The Dodge case has a slightly different orientation but either will work.

The other advantage to a Dodge case is the availability of a cast-iron tail housing, which allows for the use of heavy-duty (meaning heavy weight) transfer cases.

Also, there is a heavy duty Dodge version (diesel as mentioned above) which has a bigger input/output shaft and uses an iron top cover. It's not even close to necessary for a regular 1/2 or 3/4 ton truck unless you're going to be doing some crazy wheeling or heavy hauling. The NV4500 (just like the SM465) is way overbuilt and has no trouble handling power.

So your going to go with a gm nv4500 from a 93 truck? Please tell me your going to post a thread on a step by step installation and all the parts your using on this forum lol. Is your truck 2wd?
Thanks

[treveiger]

Originally Posted by raycow

It needs to be an early one to be sure of getting a mechanical speedo drive. I don't know what year the drive changed, but you can tell by looking at it. You want to see a threaded fitting that the cable screws onto. The threads are the same as GM, so your stock cable will screw on without needing any kind of adapter.

Also, check the input shaft spline to make sure it measures 1-1/8. There is a heavy duty version with a 1-1/4" spline that is more difficult to adapt.



If you have a stock 69 2WD truck, it has no transmission crossmember as such. The crossmember is under the bellhousing. Since this adapter lets you keep your stock bellhousing, the crossmember stays where it is now. That's a major reason I prefer the plate type adapter over the full bellhousing adapter.

Ray

So basically if i went with the dodge nv4500 all i would need is the adapter, and modify the drive shaft(i was thinking about switching it to one piece, is that doable or should i stay away from that?) and what kind of clutch set up would i need with the dodge nv4500? My truck is stock 2wd so i wouldnt need any kind of support for the nv4500 if i went with the adapter and kept my original bellhousing?
Thanks Ray

[JJorgensen52]

Originally Posted by treveiger

So your going to go with a gm nv4500 from a 93 truck? Please tell me your going to post a thread on a step by step installation and all the parts your using on this forum lol. Is your truck 2wd?
Thanks

Yep, 1993 NV4500. Came from a 1 ton diesel GM pickup.

And yes, I will be posting details once I finish the swap.

[raycow]

Originally Posted by treveiger

So basically if i went with the dodge nv4500 all i would need is the adapter, and modify the drive shaft(i was thinking about switching it to one piece, is that doable or should i stay away from that?) and what kind of clutch set up would i need with the dodge nv4500? My truck is stock 2wd so i wouldnt need any kind of support for the nv4500 if i went with the adapter and kept my original bellhousing?

After posting on this and other message boards for a while, I've learned not to take anything for granted on a 40 y/o truck.

First, take a look underneath and make sure your crossmember really is under the bellhousing and not the transmission. This is the stock setup, but a PO could have changed it for some reason or other. If your SM465 is hanging off the back of the bellhousing now, you can do the same thing with the NV4500. If the crossmember is under the SM465, you should leave it there.

If you get the Dodge gas NV4500, it has a 1-1/8" input spline and that will fit your stock clutch. You will need to replace the throwout bearing though. The adapter instructions give the part no. of the bearing to use. As an alternative, you can machine the Dodge bearing retainer to fit the stock Chevy throwout bearing. All of this is covered in the instructions. The adapter kit includes a new pilot bushing to replace the one that is in the crank now because the Dodge pilot is larger in diameter than the GM.

The one piece shaft is a good idea IMO. I made that change when I swapped in my 5 speed, but my truck is a short box. Once you get the transmission installed, measure for the shaft length you need. As a general rule, if the shaft is under 6 feet center to center you can go with a one piece.

Ray

[wild4wheels]

Subscibing to this thread, my fellow South Dakotans!

[treveiger]

Here are some pics of underneath my truck it looks like the crossmember is under the bellhousing am i right? Where is the throwout bearing and how hard is it to change? How hard is it to change pilot bushing.
Thanks

[treveiger]

heres another of underneath.

[raycow]

Originally Posted by treveiger

Here are some pics of underneath my truck it looks like the crossmember is under the bellhousing am i right? Where is the throwout bearing and how hard is it to change? How hard is it to change pilot bushing.

Yes, it looks like you have the stock setup.

The throwout bearing slides on the transmission's front bearing retainer. When you remove the transmission the bearing will be left sitting in the fork and you can pull it out with your fingers.

The pilot bushing is a bit more work. You will have to unbolt the clutch in order to get to it. An internal puller is available for removing it, but I usually get mine out by screwing in a 5/8" (or 16 mm) fine thread tap until it hits bottom. Then keep on turning the tap and it will pull out the bushing. On a few engines, the bushing may have been replaced with a needle or roller bearing. If you find one of those, you will have to rent the puller, because the tap can't be screwed into the bearing.

Ray

[treveiger]

I was doing more research on this swap and found that the nv4500 is 20lbs heavier than the sm465, would that affect the stock bellhousing with the adapter from AA and im also thinking about switching it to a one piece driveshaft too, would that be to much weight for the bellhousing? I know this is a stupid question lol but before i do anything i like to make sure i know as much as i can about the project so i wont be suprised anymore than necessary lol.
Thanks in advance