anybody in nashville, tn area willing to help start 235

[vintage_car]

I'm stumped and it could be something simple. I'm wanting to see if the 235 I have will even run. It does turn over without problem. I have a strong spark. The truck is ratty and void of all wiring. I have the foot operated starter without a solenoid. I want to covert it to a 12v system so I purchased a 12v coil, which has the negative going to the distributor. The positive I attached to the battery positive for test firing the truck. The firing order is set to 153624 clockwise, new distributor cap, points, condensor, plugs and wires. I rebuilt the rochester carb that was on the engine- it does have a couple issues still but nothing that should prevent starting the engine. I don't need to hear it run very long, just need to ensure it does run before sinking any more money into it. So anyone in the nashville, tn area ( I live about 25 miles north of nashville) willing to help me out on figuring out this puzzle I'd really be appreciative. If there are suggestions anyone can make, I will follow along with whatever other tests people on here can make and report the results.
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[OrrieG]

Sounds like you have covered the basics. I assume you set the dwell and timing and the spark is at the plugs. If you pulled the distributor make sure it was not put back in 180 degrees out. It will act like its starting because enough of the cylinders are close, just out of sync between ignition and valve timing.

Even if the carb is totally hosed it should try and start with a little gas poured down the carb, I fought that for two hours last weekend on a 69 I am am trying to get running before figuring the carb will need rebuilt. Rochesters are nortorius for drying out the accelerator pump seal if they set any length of time. If you aren't getting a squirt when you open the throttle you might pull the top and check it. I assume checked the fuel pump and are pulling clean fresh gas from a can or something like that, not sucking the crud out of an old tank.

Did you check compression? Valve adjustment? If its been sitting for a while rings may have lossened up. If its been apart, valves might not be adjusted right. Or it might just be tired internally (low compression).

[vintage_car]

I have not check the valves or compression yet. The engine has not been apart yet. As for the distributor 180 out...it should at least have some sort of coughing/ sputtering and I don't even have that. The accelerator pump is sqyuirting fuel properly from the carb. I think I have a float problem with the carb, but that can be fixed at a later date. Just looking for life out of this engine- before calling it a complete rebuild. the fuel pump doesn't work at all so I just trickled some gas in the carb or shot a few squirts of starter fluid in it to see if i could get it to fire.
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[OrrieG]

If you are getting spark at plugs and gas down the intake thru the carb, yes something should fire, even if a valve is hanging open and rings loose. If nothing else it would back fire out the carb even with the timing a little off. Are you checking the spark while turning the starter? Coil and dist sound like they are wired to start. Almost sounds like the fuel mixture is not getting into the combustion chamber or something is grounding out the coil or dist when trying to start (I had that happen once with a bad ing switch with internal short).

[vintage_car]

I don't have a key or any other wires other than a ground going from the engine block to negative on battery, postive post on battery goes to starter and postive side of coil. negative side of coil goes to distributor. That is all I have for wiring to try and test fire. I put a bit of gas down the carb, left choke open, and throttle plate open, then loosened up the distributor. Had my wife operate the foot pedal starter while I rotated the distributor. It popped a few times out the carb, but that was it. it never tried to really fire up. I bet I rotated the distributor at least 45 degrees both clockwise and counter-clockwise.
Still haven't checked compression will get to that hopefully tomorrow...any other suggestions before then or anyone in the area willing to come over and scratch their head with me is more than welcome.

[bobinbc]

I tried to fire the 235 in my 57 after sitting for many years. It had spark and fresh gas, nothing tampered with since the last time it ran. Even after squirting some oil in the cylinders I only had about 25 lbs compression, it wouldn't fire. If your ring are stuck like mine you might be able to free them up with a shot of something in the cylinders, but I don't know what would be best to use....on mine I plan to pull it and rebuild or replace it anyway, was just trying to start it for the helluvit.

[vintage_car]

I'm at a total loss...I gotta be doing something wrong, this thing should be running or at leasting stumbling really good.
compression test has just been finished, numbers were 75, 75, 80, 60, 90, 30. That is from cyl. 1-6 (6 being 30psi). I dropped a little oil in the lower 2 numbers ( 60 and 30) but it didnt bring them up much at all...maybe a couple psi at most. So are those numbers decent? the 30 and 60 seem low and I have not searched to find out what it should be, I thought I read 100psi somewhere, maybe not? I would think with those numbers though that I should be getting somewhere on this engine running.
any other suggestions, or anyone in the area knowledgable and willing to come over to help me find a solution. Heck, at this point someone just to tell me to give up and scrap the engine would work.

I did notice my ground wire from the block to the negative battery was really hot after it tried turning over for probably 45 seconds of constant engine turning. I will admit the ground wire is not real pretty. Can someone verify that the negative from the coil should go to the distributor and the positive to the ignition switch (in my case the positive side of the battery since I don't have ign. switch)

[OrrieG]

Positive from battery goes to + on coil. - on coil goes to distributor. Block grounds back to battery (using a battery cable). Make sure none of the connections are grounding. 75-80 psi should be enough to fire. Since it tried, I'd check the distributor again. Make sure point gap is right and internal wire is not grounding (I once fought that). Check dwell. If you have an extra swap in another condenser, maybe you got a bad one from the store. Check the cap and rotor to make sure they are seating right. Verify the timing and plug wire positions, if you are one space off the dist has to swing 60 degrees to make up the difference. Another possibility could be the starter is pulling so much juice that there is not enough to fire the coil especially if the battery is running low. I had that happen years ago with a 6 volt VW. Running directly from the battery it shouldn't be a problem, but I'm just thinking out loud.

[5150]

PM Sent

[raycow]

You really don't want to be cranking the engine for 45 seconds continuously unless you are in the starter rebuilding business. This is extremely bad for the starter. Crank for 15 seconds maximum and then give it at least twice that long to cool off. If the carb has fuel and the engine doesn't start in 15 seconds, you have problems that aren't going to be fixed by more cranking.

Ray

[Dan Bowles]

Ray is right on the starter. You are sending 12V through a 6V starter. It will be OK for short bursts but it won't last long abusing it like that. You can ask me how I know but lets just say I've proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Have you tried rotating your timing 180 degees? I had that problem with a Ford 8N once. It finally fired and it's been running for 5 years with no issues.

[mr48chev]

Someone may have sent you a pm on it but I would first pull #1 plug and while your wife/helper bumps (taps) the starter over hold a finger in the plug hole and get #1 up on Top dead center. Once it is at top dead Center check to see that the rotor is pointing at the spot on the distributor where the #1 wire is in the cap. If it is the engine is pretty close to being in time. If it is pointing in another direction you will have to either pull the distributor an turn the rotor so it is correct or turn the distributor in the block so that the two line up.
The points should be just opening when it is set right.

You might want to squirt a shot of oil in each cylinder to see if it will help boost the compression just a bit to help and lubricate the cylinder walls in the process.

I usually take a small container of gas an pour some down the float bowl vent tube to fill the float bowl so the engine can run for a short period.
This engine sat outside under a tarp at my buddy's house for a few years before I got it and hauled it home.

[IMG]http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/mr48ch...

You don't need a lot of stuff to start one.

[mr48chev]

Oops, I was more tired than I thought last night with missing the double post.
That video was originally made to show my buddy who gave me the Cad 500 that the engine did actually run. I had a battery hooked up to it and a wire from the battery to the hei distributor coil connection. Dribble some gas in the carb and try to start it.

[bobinbc]

I just went back over this thread again and I see all the parts you replaced. Also you mention that there is a strong spark. When you poured a bit of gas in it sputtered right? I'd pull a plug to see if it's wet, if it's not I'd bet it might just want some more fuel. Re-check to make sure you're close on number 1 firing like suggested above and then I would take the cap from a spray bomb can and fill it about 2/3 full with gas. Dump that in there and crank. Compression should be in the range of 125-130 but it should definitely run the way it is. Good luck.

[Dan Bowles]

I punch a hole in the top of a 20 ounce pop bottle, fill the bottle with gas, and use that to squirt in fuel to get it to start. Didn't think of it just not being enough.

[vintage_car]

thanks for the compression numbers- sounds like the engine is pretty tired then. After attending the Goodguys show in Bowling Green yesterday and seeing a variety of my trucks and what others have done, I'm still torn on keeping my 235 or swaping in a 350 The plugs are not wet after dumping a capful of fuel down there. No coughing or sputtering so I'm going to pull the manifold and see if there is obstructions at the block, not allowing fuel or air. I'll post my findings.

[OrrieG]

My very first rig was a 47 Ford PU with a flathead. Engine was so bad it used a quart of oil every 20 miles, I worked in service station at the time and recycled the oil we drained. The compression was so bad it would not start with the starter. I lived on a hill and got good at finding parking spaces on hills at school, friends etc. It had to coast in gear for about half a block in granny gear before it would build up enough compression and rpms to run, once running it was fine, except it looked like the Queen Mary at full speed through the farmer chrome stacks!

You might try some gas in the plug holes before pulling the manifold, might be enough to get it working.

[vintage_car]

I think after calling around about getting the 235 rebuilt, since the compression numbers are al below spec that I'm gonna pull it and drop in a 350. I really wanted to hear this inline come to life, but I gotta get moving forward on the project. Thanks for all the input.