Disk Brake Conversion - to upgrade ball joints and tie rod ends or not

[jocko]

Quick question - I'm looking at 2 CPP kits, both are identical with the exception that, for $100 more, one kit's spindles work with 73-87 ball joints and tie rod ends (and the kit includes them). So, I'm wondering what's so special about 73-87 bj's & tre's? I understand they are more plentiful, however, I'm not sure I see myself replacing ball joints and tie rod ends every year or so... if ever once I replace them once. So, PERFORMANCE (of the ball joint or tie rod end)-wise, is there something better about the 73-87 stuff that would steer me toward that choice (no pun intended, it just kinda rolled off the tongue...) I also realize that if I were to buy the kit without the upgraded stuff that it'd cost me > than the price tag diff ($100) to buy 66 ball joints and tie rod ends - so money really isn't the question here - wondering why the general consensus I've seemed to pick up on the site is to upgrade to 73-87 stuff when doing this (and that is the direction I'm leaning).

I think the 4 wheel DB conversion is a bit too expensive for me and probably overkill (although it WOULD be cool....). Also think I may just go with a master cylinder and booster form NAPA or something like that vice the CPP one - and just use the CPP spindle/disk brake kit (either with our without the tie rod/ball joint upgrade, TBD). Any drawbacks you can think of with the NAPA approach to save a few bucks?

Thoughts??
Thanks guys.

[protrash64]

I have done both kits, and the 60-66 type twice. The biggest difference is the 73+ hardware is much heavier than the 60-66 stuff. The balljoints and tie rod ends are beefy on 73+. That being said, 2 of my trucks were driving on original or original replacement parts with no problems.

They claim that the 60-66 stuff is 'hard to find' but I got my last set of upper BJ's at Autozone for roughly 20 bucks and no shipping!! Used 'em on my disc upgrade on the '66.

[jocko]

good to know protrash, thanks very much. My truck currently has fairly new (original 66 style) ball joints and tie rod ends - so maybe I should just re-use them and save $100....

[jocko]

ok - general question for those that have done front disk brake conversions....

My drums work pretty darn well - I'm wondering if maybe I should just do chief rocka's line-splitting and add a dual non-power master and call it a day....

wondering just how much improvement you actually notice when converting to disks?

I've saved up the $$ - but then again, I could also certainly be pretty happy to sink that into a 5-speed trans instead of a chunk for a disk upgrade, so still on the fence about the whole disk conversion. At a minimum, I want to put in a dual MC and split the lines, just for safety.

Oh yeah - forgot to mention the MAJOR benefit of just splitting the lines and forgetting about disks - keeping my stock wheels!!! If I do the disk conversion, I have to add the cost of new wheels and maybe tires since my stocker steelies will not fit. Hmmmmmm.

[Rich 5150 69]

Well Jocko, I have not yet changed mine to disc, but have change to power drum split lines, made all the differance in the world, maybe there is a reason I haven`t change to disc mentally, its been good so far, don`t know howmuch of an improvement it would make, maybe some others will chime in...

[jocko]

Originally Posted by Rich 5150 69

Well Jocko, I have not yet changed mine to disc, but have change to power drum split lines, made all the differance in the world, maybe there is a reason I haven`t change to disc mentally, its been good so far, don`t know howmuch of an improvement it would make, maybe some others will chime in...

rich - do you have a parts list for what you used? That's exactly what I'd be interested in doing if I go this route - i.e. upgrade to power when I do it also. Use a kit or just off the shelf parts?

any off the wall mods required - pushrod length change, etc...

Thanks for posting. A pic would be awesome by the way. Am assumin it looks just like any other disk brake conversion to dual mc + pb booster - except you don't have the disks at the wheels (and used the proper mc and booster, etc)

[Captainfab]

My '66 Suburban currently has 4 wheel drum brakes with a '72 Impala booster and a '67-'70 pickup power drum master cylinder, mounted to the firewall with the booster bracket that I make. It doesn't stop too bad, however I do plan to upgrade to 6 lug dicss as soon as I can find the time.

[Rich 5150 69]

I robbed a 67/68 pwer booster, mc and proporting valve, split lines, that was it, all it cost me was for the new line in the front, added to the rod length with an adjustable rod end. I think all the new trucks use a metering valve between the two front wheels, but not sure on this. this is the only pic I have, all this was done back in `93.

[jocko]

Thanks Rich and Capt - much appreciated.

Capt, I pm'ed ya on a related question - i.e. doing this with column shift - you mentioned in a prev thread that the bracket wouldn't work with column shift, so I sent you a few more detailed questions.

Thanks again!

[jocko]

Here's a question fer y'all.

Several of the previous threads about splitting single res master cyls to dual and possibly adding a power booster to a 4 drum brake system mention using 1967 Impala and 1967 C10 masters. I do realize that 67 is the year that dual res MC's became mandatory - but have a question about that particular selection:

Were all 67 C10's 4 wheel drum brake setups - or were any disk/drum setups available yet? (i.e. - I think I found a nice inexpensive matched master cylinder with booster at Oreilly's but the one thing I can't differentiate on it is whether the MC is for a drum/drum or disk/drum setup).

Here's the link to that part: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...1305&ppt=C0066

Next question - in those same threads I mentioned about splitting the lines (GREAT one by ChiefRocka - http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=332148) there were several questions about how to properly adjust/set the length of the push rod for the MC. The link to the Oreilly part above states the length is set for the vehicle (but keep in mind - that vehicle is a 67 C10, not a 60-66 and the mounting is different). So, if I bought the Oreilly part - I'd also buy CaptainFab's booster mounting bracket to go with it. I'm assuming that since I'd need Capt's bracket and it stands off from the firewall a bit (unlike a 67 C10 that appears mounted directly to the firewall with no bracketry) that I'd need to lengthen the pushrod a good bit.

My question is this - does anyone know if the Oreilly or over-the-counter bargain basement booster/mc combos are adjustable at all? If so, how much capacity to lengthen? (the ad says it's pre-adjusted" so that leads me to believe it's adjustable - but how? I see no visible threaded rod or jam nuts, etc).

Determining the correct length should not be hard - in fact ChiegRocka's got some important specific gouge about that in his thread - but I'd really like to avoid having to cut a pushrod and lengthen it - would rather just "adjust" it out, am hoping there's threaded rod inside the boot that i can't see. (note that on the Oreilly part above, there are different views one can select).

I'm really startin to lean toward this less expensive type of setup - and keeping my stock wheels/tires, etc.

I had saved up for a CPP disk setup, but I would lose the use of the stock wheels - and it's $$$ (but a very nice product and worth it). I know disks are better, but my drums on this truck do seem to already stop it on a dime - they're just not power boosted and they are still single res original master cylinder. So I could go power dual res for the $100 for the combo and then a few lines I'd need to bend up. It may not look it but I have a lot of money tied up in PC on my stock steelies - and I love 'em. Buying new or finding old disk brake steelies and then PC'ing them would be a lot more $$$ too. So if I disked it, I'd probably just paint up my rallies and use them - which is very nice, but I like my stockers. Hate to throw all that away just for a little (maybe) extra stopping power. I do not believe I need to install a prop valve in a 4 wheel drum setup, so that cost is gone too. I can take the extra money I saved for the big $$ brake kit and sink it into the 5-speed conversion (ulterior motive....)

Any help would be appreciated. Rich and Captain, thanks very much for your comments, very helpful.

[towersddg9]

Here is the CPP kit with the 73 up ball joints and tie rod ends, fit good easy install, I'm going back with the rear drum, looking for a pic of the shoes and hardware installed, I shot a few but can't find em.

[protrash64]

Hey jocko, I had a '69 Chevelle with power drums and it always worked fine for me. My disc conversions are manual and are a lot of work to stop the truck. If you go disc, your cheapest wheel route will be trucks rallys or some aftermarket rallys (Corvette type look).

If you're comfortable with the drums, stick with them and use the $$$ somewhere else.

[Captainfab]

Jocko. That booster and master combo in the O'Reilly's link is the correct one for a '67-'70 drum/drum system. If you click on the 'Compatibility' tab, it will show you. The '67-'72's had a set of brackets with a bellcrank that the booster bolts to. It doesn't bolt directly to the firewall in an original application. This booster isn't quite a direct bolt on with my booster bracket. The stud pattern is a little different, so the holes in the mounting bracket will need elongated a little. This is why I don't list this booster as being compatable with my booster bracket. The ones listed in my for sale thread are a direct bolt on with no modifications necessary. The '67-'70 truck master will bolt right up to either of those. The only boosters that have a threaded adjustable pushrod are the aftermarket boosters. Any original booster will need the pushrod modified to work in an non-original application.

[jocko]

Thanks Protrash - good gouge, I'm leaning evern FARTHER toward keeping the drum/drum setup and just adding a booter and dual res mc.

Thanks again Captain - appreciate the info, and copy all on how the original booste bolted in with a bellcrank mechanism & brackets. I am gonna go re-read your bracket listing and review the boosters and then maybe order just the master cylinder from Oreilly and one of the boosters in your list.

As for adj rod, thanks - good to know. Sure seems like some company out there would offer an adjustable rod by itself... But hey, that's why this is FUN!

Thanks again for takin the time to splain it to me.

[LostMy65]

Is there a way to check ball joints to tell if they need to be replaced or not?

[dracko]

Is there a way to check ball joints to tell if they need to be replaced or not?

I've always jacked up the front end (chock rear wheels) and checked for any play in the tire. Grab the tire top to bottom and try to wobble it, then side to side. Should be tight with no play.

If there is play, try to isolate which joint is loose. Or replace them all at once.

[MalibuKasey]

jocko....
CPP makes a 6 lug rotor for disks so you could keep your wheels. Thats what I did.

[LostMy65]

That makes sense.
Thank you.

Originally Posted by dracko

I've always jacked up the front end (chock rear wheels) and checked for any play in the tire. Grab the tire top to bottom and try to wobble it, then side to side. Should be tight with no play.

If there is play, try to isolate which joint is loose. Or replace them all at once.

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[sigshooter]

I plan on using the spindles that use the 66 style ball joints and tie rods (mine are fairly new and that would help me keep it simple remembering what is what when I do have to replace parts. I am going to use the 6 hole rotors also so I can keep all of my wheel combos ( 4x4 wheels and stock hubcaps, rallys and centerlines all 6 holes.

I work in a scrap yard and could get the 73-87 stuff for free, but I would rather keep it more on the original side with just a few mods for safety reasons.

[LostMy65]

My father-un-law's 73 gmc had power drum/drum. I might first go that route with my 65, then later go to discs up front.
Still undecided.
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[markeb01]

This response may be a little late regarding whether or not to upgrade to disc brakes.

I wanted two things out of the swap – elimination of the ball bearing wheel bearings, and a five lug pattern so I could run 5 spoke American mags. If I could have accomplished those goals with drum brakes I wouldn’t have swapped the front suspension. I ran drum brakes for decades without any issues. There’s no question disc brakes provide superior performance, but I never come near those limits and I don’t haul heavy loads up and down mountains during the summer.

The only advantage disc brakes offer to me personally has to do with maintenance. It’s simply easier changing pads and calipers than rebuilding drum brakes. Drum brakes just take longer, which is much more painful for someone with a bad back. But considering how rarely either drums or discs require a rebuild, I wouldn’t go through the work and expense of upgrading to discs just to cut down the effort needed to replace pads versus shoes.

[gimmy 64]

the biggest differance i find with discs is if you are on the freeway driving 65 and have to stop fast the discs do it a whole lot faster and shorter

[64shortbox]

There's one other thing no one has mentioned about the advantage of swapping to discs - driving through standing water. Driving through standing water with drum brakes and needing to stop in a hurry, it ain't going to happen. I pert near had to clean up after myself with a putty knife while driving through waer and needing to stop in a hurry. Good thing my truck has brown interior!