Anybody ever used electrolysis on truck parts?

[jmanz69]

I am trying out the electrolysis method of crud removal. It sounds good, kinda like a mini hot tank at home. I have a rams horn with a busted stud in there right ow and it's just a bubbling away. Will be less messy than chemicals since I used laundry detergent. Just wondered if anyone else had any experience with it.

Thanks

Jmanz69

[sneakysnake]

There was a thread a few months back that might help.check with search.

[Alex Hayley]

http://users.eastlink.ca/~pspencer/n...ctrolysis.html

URL should work now...

[Blue68]

Jmanz69,
How's it coming along? I saw this on a few restoration web site and was at a minimum going to play with it out of curiosity. One of the areas of curiosity I have is paint. I was thinking of doing my tailgate. Build a wood frame from 2x6 and put it on the garage floor with plastic and fill it with water and electrolyte.

Ain't science great....

[biglou55]

Alex i tried that site it said page not found. I would like to hear and learn more about this process and what it does.

[XXL]

So does this remove unwanted hair from the part?

[andyr354]

The only thing about the process is that the two pices of metal have to be "in view" of each other. They can't be touching though or they short the circuit.
On something like a tailgate you wild need a large pice of metal for the positive and move it from one side of the tailgate to the other.
Also would not be able to remove rust from the inside of it unless you devise a way of suspending a piece inside.

Other than that it works great. I use it on small parts with great rusults. I use Sodium Carbonate (washing soda), you can also use Lye.
Here is an article that covers it some.
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html

[Long Knight]

Does this only work with DC. I understand the concept, but what if you could lower the amp of household current. Besides, there is some shock value to these truck batteries. I guess if I was running off of AC I could just use my battery charger. I'll try it tonight! Better tell the wife to program 911 into speed dial!haha.

[jmanz69]

It is coming along quite well. I am using a 55 Amp battery charger and it's going along fine. I had it set to 10 Amp for a while, but it was too slow, very few bubbles. Most of the manifold is black now, and very little of the loose rust is still attatched. For something this big it could take a couple days to get it clean.

P.S.

Anyone want a driver side rams horn manifold? I don't need it and would like to find it a new home. How's $10 plus shipping. It does have one stud broken, so keep that in mind. Not to mention it will be freshly cleaned!!

[Blue68]

Use your battery charger. It has to be DC. Alternating current won't do anything but stop your heart in this scenario.

[Long Knight]

I don't need a jumpstart personally, so I take your advice Blue68 and use the charger!

[ChevLoRay]

I have to admit the subject title threw me at first. I consider electrolysis to be detrimental, like what happens when two dissimilar pieces of metal come into contact with each other, to the detriment of one of them...like a piece of aluminum and a piece of steel in constant contact.

I used to work in a photofinishing plant. If you don't know, there is silver (silver halides) in the coatings on film, and the papers used to print the photos onto. The chemicals used in the processing release the silver from the paper and film. We built a Silver Recovery system, to reclaim the silver from the chemicals. One of the systems was an electroplating system, with stainless steel plates suspended in the chemicals, and turned by an electric motor. It became the anode (I think)....either that, or it was the cathode....there's only two parts in that circuit. Anyway, the silver would plate onto, or more correctly.....clump onto the stainless plates. When done, they would be removed and the silver would be chipped off. Another method is to simply filter the silver through 5-gallon sized steel wool filters....like giant steel wool pads. When saturated, simply burn them and the result is silver. Sometimes, we'd take X-Ray film in bulk, and (somewhere in the countryside) we's burn the film in a pit. Everything that wasn't silver, burned up....with a lot of black smoke.

Now, you know how to obtain silver from photofinishing processes.

[ChopTop]

ok, I read about this on another site a long while back. I just can't remember.... which do you put on the part and which goes in the water. Do I put the positive electrode on the part and the negative on my steel rod?

[Eddie H.]

I copied this off another website dealing with the subject. I've been meaning to try it myself and see what happens???

Introduction

One of the most tedious jobs we encounter while restoring an old engine is the process of removing many layers of paint and rust as well as freeing up seized bolts and pistons. The following introduces you to a method of parts cleaning that has proven to be the most effective means of de-rusting and paint removal I have ever used.

The process of electrolysis is not new, in fact it is as old as electricity itself. But it is cheap and easy to implement and is even more environmentally friendly than the use of caustic and petroleum-based cleaners. There are no foul odors and the solution ( if you use washing soda) is not irritating to the skin.

Background

The electrolysis process has been used by achivists for years to clean metal objects. I saw a show where a 1700's vintage French brass cannon was cleaned to reveal the complete Royal Insignia, and this was after 250 years in the sea. I had alway expected it was too expensive and complex but it is not.

I can personally vouch for this process since it was used exclusively for the cleaning and un-seizing of my own engines and machinery. Anyone who has ever tried to clean up rusty iron (or any metal) will embrace this method with a passion equal to their love for the object itself.

A specific experience with this process has been recently tested as I overhaul a Type J, twin cylinder Atlantic Marine Engine. This engine was no exception to the state in which we often find our engines. The parts that were not covered in 10 layers of paint, were heavily encrusted with rust and many parts (including both pistons) were seized solid. The engine is now completely apart and clean using electrolysis exclusively and without the use of rotary wire brushes, chisels, flame heat or excessive force.

Methods and Process

(PLEASE read it all, especially the cautions regarding safety, the type of metals you can work with and the suggestions on the "electrolyte" to use. Don't blame me if your aluminum carburetor/engine block dissolves overnight)

ELECTROLYTE- While this has a more technical meaning to a chemist, for this purpose it refers to the stuff you add to a bucket of water to allow the electricity to flow.

Materials required:

» A non-electrically conductive container large enough to hold the parts you want to clean, (i.e. a plastic bucket ? or for large engine parts perhaps an old (fibreglass) bathtub ???). You could use a stainless steel bucket, sink, pot etc. connected to the POSTIVE post as long as you are careful not to let the part being cleaned touch the side of the bucket (short circuit will occur).

» The electrolyte. I used Arm and Hammer WASHING SODA (lemon-scented even)-a common laundry detergent. Main advantages here are; easy on you skin, NOT corrosive to the part being cleaned if you happen to leave the part in the solution, no worse than typical soap if it gets in your eyes, AND it leaves a nice soapy smell in the room. Also, the soap effectively gets rid of the putrid smell of old gasoline and oil. (great for cleaning out old gas tanks). Other soaps and detergents work fairly well and I'll leave that for you to experiment with.

Other electrolytes I have tried BUT DO NOT RECOMMEND:

Baking Soda - Sodium Bicarbonite. It works but has much the same properties as salt in that it is mildly corrosive once electricity is applied. I have used it only only for brief tests. It is probably better to use it in place of washing soda than the other 3 which follow.

Table salt- it is corrosive to metal in it own right. It also leaves a punjent chlorine smell behind. (It is sodium chloride). Very bad for aluminum.

LYE - Sodium Hydroxide - Corrosive to metal in it's own right. Causes much more gasification of the water (LOTS of hydrogen and oxygen gas). Very hard on your skin and even worse CAN CAUSE BLINDNESS if splashed in your eyes. Very bad for aluminum , white metals (zinc alloys) or thinly electroplated materials.

Battery acid (sulphuric, hydrochloric, nitric) - I don't need to spell out that one for you do I? Way too hazardous.

» A 12 volt battery or other DC power source with high current capability. A trickle ( 4 to 12 amps) battery charger can be used for small parts. A shop grade "booster" battery charger is quite effective for even large parts. 6 volt DC works as long as the current ability is high. Higher voltage DC sources will work of course BUT then it becomes a shock hazard.

» Iron electrodes (but stainless steel is superior, will last longer and needs less cleaning.)

» Water

Process:

The example here uses a 5 gallon (20 litre) bucket. Use about 3/4 cup of washing soda in a 5 gallon bucket of water and mix thoroughly. If you are using larger containers, you will only need to add enough washing soda (or alternative electrolyte) to allow current to flow through the water. If you use other electrolytes, continue to add the substance until current flows (bubbling occurs). Excessive electrolyte simply uses more current without substantially improving the speed of the de-corroding process. Slower is better. After all, your old "whatzit" has been in the woods or under the ocean for decades or centuries,... what's a few more days?

Place the iron or stainless steel electrode (rods, plates,wire etc) in the bucket and connect the POSITIVE battery cable.

Place the part to be cleaned in the bucket and connect the NEGATIVE battery cable. Turn on the power. You will immediately see bubbles and froth coming from the electrode and the part.

You may have to leave the part in for anywhere from several hours to several days or longer depending on the extent of the rust and paint BUT USE GREAT CARE with aluminum or other light alloys (more notes on that follow). In any case, it is useful to occasionally check on the part and partially clean it as the rust and paint soften. This can be effectively done with a small hand-held wire brush or stiff bristle brush and steel wool.

Large flakes of rust can be easily scraped off, smaller pieces will brush off in time and molecular-sized fragments float off into the water and become part of the froth on top. Paint may actually soften and can be peeled off in sheets, several layers at a time. This process is also good at softening rust inside water jackets and other tight places that are often difficult to get to. In addition, electrolysis will, in time, soften the rust layer between the piston and cylinder wall making it easier to remove. The same process softens the rust between a seized bolt and its threaded hole or nut making it easier to remove without heat.

You can place several items in the bath at the same time but the more items (thus greater electrical surface area) there are, the more current flow is required. This also means that the stainless plate (if quite large) also increases the current flow. In addition, the proximity of the stainless plate (positive post ) and item to be cleaned (negative post) changes the current required. The closer they are, the more current required. (just make sure they are a little distance apart-otherwise a short circuit) When cleaning large parts, a fully charged, heavy-duty 12 volt battery will be dead in several hours . So either use a smaller electrode, increase the distance between the electrode and part or use a BIG battery and /or heavy-duty battery charger.

You can use any DC power supply of any voltage. Avoid high voltage just because of the shock hazard. A battery charger will work, especially if used in conjunction with a battery. (The charger will help keep the battery "up" or if you use a shop type "booster" charger, it can be used by itself. A 4 amp trickle charger won't do much except for small parts).

THINK SAFETY!!! -Warnings and additional information

Even though you are (may be) using only soap and water, the electrolysis process splits water into it's elements, namely hydrogen and oxygen. Sparks (from the battery and connections) can ignite the hydrogen/oxygen mix. It is not enough to produce a Hindenburg-like explosion in your workshop, but it is flammable all the same so this should be done in a reasonably ventilated area and caution is advised.

Once the item to be cleaned has been in the bath for awhile, the water will get quite warm from the current transfer and may even be too hot to touch. This is a good way to help take apart seized parts without the use of torches.

What can be cleaned.

Any electrically conductive material can be cleaned and the process removes layers of metal at a molecular level and very slowly (if washing soda is used).

Some warnings which may not apply at this time but in the future.

"Light" metals such as aluminum, white metal or other alloys break down much quicker than steel, cast iron or brass. I think it's because at the molecular level, there is a weaker bond, but I am not a chemist. A smooth aluminum surface that has light surface corrosion can still be cleaned with electrolysis, but only immerse the material for short periods (15 minutes) and clean with a soft brush. Longer periods will discolour, badly pit or even completely dissolve aluminum etc.

Also, materials with a thin or not well bonded electroplated surface may be adversely affected by long periods. The plated surface may actually peel away. Experimentation is required no matter what you are working with. Try short immersions first and gradually lengthen the periods. My main tests on heavy, thick cast iron and brass parts show that they can be left "cooking" in the electrolysis bath for hours, days even weeks with no noticible loss of metal and the brass may have some tarnish or discolouration. This is cleanable with conventional metal polish and/or a buffing wheel.

Precious metals,(gold or silver) can be cleaned but;

a) Some amount of precious metal is removed and this may be highly undesirable.(I did try a dirty gold neck chain. It worked but likely devalued it).

b) If the item is plated (brass, gold, siver), it may peel off the plated layer and effectively ruin it.

Elecrodes to use

Iron electrodes are less superior to stainless steel because rust (iron oxide) particles will stick rapidly to the iron rod and eventually create an electrical barrier around it which will stop the electrolysis process. So iron electrodes may require regular cleaning whereas stainless steel is less of a problem. Aluminum electrodes will begin to dissolve in a matter of hours.

USEFUL HINTS

How to clean a bunch of small parts.

If you have a lot of small parts (like a bucket of bolts), you can use a stainless steel screen (a common kitchen strainer works) shaped into a pouch or mini-bucket. Place some of the parts in the screen and immerse in the electrolyte as if it were a single part. Connect the battery NEGATIVE to the screen. All the metal parts which touch the screen (and in turn, each other as the corrosion dissolves and the parts can electrically touch each other) are cleaned together. Use a brush to stir the parts around occasionally. This helps to remove loosened corrosion and improves the electrical contact between pieces. In time, all parts will be mostly de-corroded. Compare this to wire brushing 100 bolts individually.

Cleaning inside a tight area like a engine water jacket

Take a small diameter plastic or rubber hose, cut numerous small holes in it and slip a length of stainless steel wire through the length of the tube. Feed this assembly into the water jacket (or whatever you're working with) and connect the POSITIVE battery wire. The electrode is now inside a tight area and in close proximity to the part/area you want to clean without touching it. Getting all the loosened crud out can be a challenge but vacuuming, compressed air or turning the unit upside down to dump it out works. One problem is that the process causes large chunks of rust to drop off inside the unit. You may need to reach inside with a screwdriver or rod to break up the rust to get it out.

For cleaning inside of cylinders or other parts, use a stainless bolt or wire supported and hanging freely within the part. This will clean inside areas that can't be normally reached.

RE-USE the electrolyte

After a while, the electrolyte gets quite dirty with suspended metal and dirt or grease. I have found (at least while using washing soda) that if you remove the electrodes, wires and parts from the electrolysis bath and leave the liquid to sit a few days, most material drops to the bottom. Siphon off the clear liquid at the top and re-use it, perhaps add a bit more electrolyte before starting the process again. HOWEVER, some material will remain in suspension and may affect (discolour) the part you are cleaning.

Example: If you have just cleaned a lot of brass, the electrolyte gets a green hue. Cleaning steel in this liquid may leave it with a slight brown discolouration. If this is undesirable, you will need a fresh batch of electrolyte.

Your feedback is desired. Tell me of your success stories or alternatively, problems you encounter.

THIS IS NOT A MIRACLE WORKER. Some good old-fashioned elbow grease will still be needed but the effort is much-reduced.

[jmanz69]

I am very familiar with the process in the silver recovery process. I work with industrial x-ray equipment and have to install silver recovery systems for my customers all the time. In Michigan it's illeagal to dump heavy metals into the sewer system, so all x-ray film users have to recycle or have the fixer water recycled. I did not know it could be used to remove rust from parts. I read the same article as above (long post) and decided to give it a try. My manifold came out really good, but I did get some copper on it from the clamp on the charger. So it looks like there is more rust on it still. I have a lower control arm in the tank right now. Should take a couple days to get it clean I figure. Since I can only do half of it at a time.

[oldsub86]

There is lots of info on the subject here http://oldwwmachines.com/

Just search the word electrolysis. People use the process to clean up old iron tools.

[Fred T]

I've also heard about people using sugar water to remove rust. Molasses is supposed to be the best sugar to use. Mix some molasses in a tank of water and immerse the part. Pull it out two weeks later and the rust should be gone. Learned this on the stovebolt board, but have not tried it.

[mikep]

Back in the late 70's when the Hunt brothers were cornering the market in silver and the price peaked around $45 an ounce my dad was working as a non destructive testing engineer in South Carolina at a shop that did X ray analysis on welds for nuke plants. They just threw the stuff away. He would do a little dumpster diving after work and bring home tons of X ray film in the back of his truck. He put my brother and I to work soaking the film in a bleach solution and then scraping the emulsion off. After that we'd bake it in the oven in the garage and then fire the whole mess up in a big crucible. I remember having blocks of silver in the shop the size of tires. It came out of the furnace pretty much pure silver ar 80% at least. Its how I bought my first car. I made $5000 over the course of my summer vacation between 8th and 9th grade. I was the only freshman in high school with a 350 HP 69 camaro.

[Seke69]

I've read about this in some wood-working mags, the articles were about reclaiming antique tools... I'd imagine it works pretty well. I'l give it a shot on some nuts and bolts...