Front crossmember rivets loose???

[Critter]

The swb 72 in my sig has had some steering issues since I got it a few weeks ago. I was told all the suspension components had recenetly been replaced (and visually that looks to be true) but it hadn't been alligned so it drove poorly. Recently I got around to checking the toe in/out with a tape measure and found that it was fairly correct. The problem lies when I put it in reverse, especially if I turn the wheels while in reverse. The passenger side wheel goes off at a crazy angle and no longer is tuning at the same angle as the driver side. It is so out of whack that the passenger tire will skid on asphalt because it is too far out of alignment. When I put the truck back in drive and move forward everything sort of falls back in line and it drives pretty decent in a straight line. Finally tonight a friend and I took turns crawling under the truck while the other moved the steering wheel. Turns out the FRONT CROSSMEMBER IS LOOSE! The front portion of the frame rails around where the steering box and idler arm are both able to move in relation to the crossmemeber that is riveted in place right there. The frame is straight, no rust and no apparent collision damage (my brother owned this truck in the 90s and it drove great, definitely no wrecks have occurred since then). It looks like the rivet holes have been enlarged giving a lot of slack for the frame and steering components to move around.

My question is this, am I screwing up if I tack weld the crossmember to the frame rails then remove the rivets so I can replace them with bolts? If I go through the trouble to weld it I don't really want to grind them away but will this make things too stiff and cause stress to collect elsewhere and create failure at another point on the frame? I appreciate any input on this. Has it happened to anybody else? I searched but couldn't find anything. I'm really bummed at the moment.

[notsolo]

Originally Posted by Critter

The swb 72 in my sig has had some steering issues since I got it a few weeks ago. I was told all the suspension components had recenetly been replaced (and visually that looks to be true) but it hadn't been alligned so it drove poorly. Recently I got around to checking the toe in/out with a tape measure and found that it was fairly correct. The problem lies when I put it in reverse, especially if I turn the wheels while in reverse. The passenger side wheel goes off at a crazy angle and no longer is tuning at the same angle as the driver side. It is so out of whack that the passenger tire will skid on asphalt because it is too far out of alignment. When I put the truck back in drive and move forward everything sort of falls back in line and it drives pretty decent in a straight line. Finally tonight a friend and I took turns crawling under the truck while the other moved the steering wheel. Turns out the FRONT CROSSMEMBER IS LOOSE! The front portion of the frame rails around where the steering box and idler arm are both able to move in relation to the crossmemeber that is riveted in place right there. The frame is straight, no rust and no apparent collision damage (my brother owned this truck in the 90s and it drove great, definitely no wrecks have occurred since then). It looks like the rivet holes have been enlarged giving a lot of slack for the frame and steering components to move around.

My question is this, am I screwing up if I tack weld the crossmember to the frame rails then remove the rivets so I can replace them with bolts? If I go through the trouble to weld it I don't really want to grind them away but will this make things too stiff and cause stress to collect elsewhere and create failure at another point on the frame? I appreciate any input on this. Has it happened to anybody else? I searched but couldn't find anything. I'm really bummed at the moment.

I don't know if you want to tack weld this yet..I would want to make sure crossmember is in correct position not a 1/4 inch off either way...when its measured and square tach it.. drill out or grind off rivets. replace with grade A bolts, maybe enlarge holes for bigger bolts. take to alignment shop, I bet there is still something off with the parts that were replaced....Good luck.

[68shortfleet]

I have seen this loose crossmember problem many times. Should not be a need to tack weld the crossmember. Just replace the rivets with bolts, use as large of bolt as you can so they fit snug in the hole. Drill the holes slightly larger so the next size bolt fits snug.

The toe change issue that you describe would suggest that these rivets are REALLY loose, if that is the case, a close inspection for a cracked framerail needs done. I have seen them cracked right at the crossmember rivets, around the steering gearbox bolts, and further back at the engine crossmember.

I have also seen a brace installed from the steering gearbox bolts on the inside of the framerail to the crossmember to create a little extra support there.

[Keith Seymore]

You can replace the rivets with bolts, which was also the factory repair procedure.

K

[Dunenutt]

I once installed a draglink upside down, and it had the same symptoms. Are the tie rod end nuts facing foreward? On the draglink, near the center, the tie rod nuts should point to the front.

The rivet issue needs fixed, but it would need to move alot to cause that much missalignment.

[Critter]

Thanks guys, I started this thread late at night after I was already frustrated with the situation. After thinking about it, just removing the rivets and installing bolts seems like the way to go, no welding needed. Should I just use good quality grade 8 bolts or do I want something a little softer in there?

I looked last night for any cracks and didn't see any, but I need to go over it again in the daylight.

[Critter]

Originally Posted by Dunenutt

I once installed a draglink upside down, and it had the same symptoms. Are the tie rod end nuts facing foreward? On the draglink, near the center, the tie rod nuts should point to the front.

The rivet issue needs fixed, but it would need to move alot to cause that much missalignment.

I will look at that. I am pretty sure I have a combination of loose rivets and poor alignment working together to make the situation bad. The guy I recently bought the truck from said everything had been replaced a few month ago but it had been sitting since then, never aligned. From the looks of all the components that seems to be true.

[Dunenutt]

Originally Posted by Critter

I will look at that. I am pretty sure I have a combination of loose rivets and poor alignment working together to make the situation bad. The guy I recently bought the truck from said everything had been replaced a few month ago but it had been sitting since then, never aligned. From the looks of all the components that seems to be true.

Thats what makes me think it's backwards. All new, never driven.

[Dunenutt]

Originally Posted by Critter

Thanks guys, I started this thread late at night after I was already frustrated with the situation. After thinking about it, just removing the rivets and installing bolts seems like the way to go, no welding needed. Should I just use good quality grade 8 bolts or do I want something a little softer in there?

I looked last night for any cracks and didn't see any, but I need to go over it again in the daylight.

7/16 grade 8 bolts, with lockwashers. If they are really wallered, you may need to step up to 1/2".

[cdowns]

the suspension crossmember is not riveted to the frame from the factory so i'm really havin a hard time understanding what you r explaining

i'd take it in to a competent shop and have the alignment checked first off

[Critter]

Originally Posted by cdowns

the suspension crossmember is not riveted to the frame from the factory so i'm really havin a hard time understanding what you r explaining

i'd take it in to a competent shop and have the alignment checked first off

I randomly found this pic of Shifty's for reference, this is not my truck.

The cross member I am talking about is the farthest forward one seen here. About 12-14" back from the front of the frame. The steering box and idler arm are supported in this area by this front cross member. I haven't been able to look farther back at the large cross member/engine cradle that bolts in. I am assuming that's the one you are talking about that isn't riveted in. I am betting it is at least slightly loose also.

[Critter]

I crawled under the truck again tonight and looked around. I still don't see any cracks or tears in the frame so that is good. I do not have a bumper on the front and I realized they probably provide a lot of rigidity up there. I know a bumper shouldn't be required for rigidity, but on something 40 yrs old I'm sure it would provide a lot of help. I have one I can put on to stiffen things up a little while I am replacing rivets.

[Critter]

Originally Posted by Dunenutt

I once installed a draglink upside down, and it had the same symptoms. Are the tie rod end nuts facing foreward? On the draglink, near the center, the tie rod nuts should point to the front.

The rivet issue needs fixed, but it would need to move alot to cause that much missalignment.

Dunenutt, here are some pictures. The tie rod end nuts are NOT facing forward. Sounds like that was a problem for you???

[bodydropped68]

Originally Posted by Critter

Dunenutt, here are some pictures. The tie rod end nuts are NOT facing forward. Sounds like that was a problem for you???

The center link is on backwards the inner tie rod nuts should be facing toward the front of the truck which also means it needs to be turned around on the pitman arm and the idler arm when it is like it is now it steers funny.

[Critter]

Well that makes sense, this thing has been doing some weird stuff. I had a feeling it was more than just an alignment problem. I'll try to crawl under there over the next few days and I'll report back.
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[GMCJOE]

The 1st picture you posted of Shifty's frame gives you a great reference point on how the steering components should be. Everything you need to change to get it right is visible in that pic.

[Critter]

You know, it never entered my mind that something would be assembled wrong. Even after Dunenutt mentioned that this might be my problem months ago, I just never put in the time to figure out if that was the case. I guess I just assumed the sloppy rivets was my trouble. I finally put the front bumper on a week or so ago. That took 90% of the movement out of the frame, that's when I knew there was something else major going on. I feel pretty embarrassed that I have let the truck sit there because of this issue. I have worked on other areas of the truck and driven it around the block quite a bit, but that's it. Just haven't had the free time to look into it. Anyway, thanks for the help guys, maybe this thread will help others. I hope to swap the steering components and replace the rivets later this week so I can start driving this thing!

[Dunenutt]

It will be a totally different experience when you flip that tie rod around.

I found out mine was backwards by my alignment guy. He came out from under the truck and said " You build alot of these, HUH"

[ls1nova71]

Like the others have said, just drill out the loose rivits and bolt it back together. If you add a factory sway bar, you have to drill out the lower rivits anyway. On a side note, this is the crossmember in my truck, I noticed when I pulled the engine that there were no lower crossmember bolts on the drivers side and no evidence that they were ever there, but it dirves great! I did replace them while I was swapping engines though.

[Critter]

It's amazing how well things work when they are installed properly! I finally got a chance to move the drag link around today. I put a tape measure to the wheels and adjusted the toe in/out a little, took it off the jack stands, and it drove like a dream! I even ran down the road to my buddies stereo shop, about a 10 mile round trip. Thanks Dunenutt for bringing the problem to my attention in the first place. I still need to correct the worn rivets, but with the front bumper on that problem is minimized for now. Hopefully I can get them replaced soon. Here's some pictures for reference of how it looks now.

[Dunenutt]

Glad I could help!